Eagledad

>>Every time one makes a rule, something comes up to force an exception. Boys in our troop assume leadership when they make the effort to actually function in that position. If one has a firecracker of a scout who would do an excellent job as a SPL, they shouldn't have to sit on the sidelines until they earn their rank or have a birthday.

>>O'course, yeh can also use such a list backwards as well. A boy who makes a good JASM (you're treatin' him like an adult ASM) really should be (encouraged to finish) Eagle. He's "there." And a boy who isn't yet ready for a position like SPL or ASPL perhaps isn't yet ready for Life.

>>APL: Must be First Class. He needs to know the basics confidently before he can start tryin' to lead. PL: Must be Star and/or a former APL. He should have some leadership experience, deeper skill, and some troop-level service before gettin' the most important job in Scouting. SPL/ASPL/QM: Must be Life. JASM: Must be Eagle

Good Sunday All >>Moreover, I think those basics arise from simple application of logic and require nothing else.>Which is why I don't understand why anyone thinks morality MUST depend on religious faith and that without such faith there can be no such moral codes.

>>That the inclusion of female scouters disrupts that bonding atmosphere.

Hi Slochhat >>Your sexual orientation is not a matter of choice.

Honestly I dont know how to answer your questions. Im not one of those who needs to have the last word to feel satisfied that I got my point across. And your assumptions and questions are so off the mark that I dont have time to educate you on American culture, mainstream culture, BSA policy and so on. It would be the same as me accusing German beer makers of using backward practices in making beer because it doesnt taste Budweiser. Where would any German begin in trying to explain that? That you dont think the BSA represents the mainstream pretty much explains your ignorance about the BSA and American culture. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Barry

>>I find those values offensive, not valuable and regard mine as superior.

>>What's your point? We're just ten years short of 100, doing things very differently and scouting is very successful in this country without kicking people out because of their sexual orientation, etc.

I'm saying that we couldn't even begin to teach the skills required for good leadership at the SPL level, so we ran the course giving the expectation that the scouts would go back and teach the skills to the rest of the scouts. THey were still ASPL and SPLs, but the burden on them from us was passing those skills on to the rest of the troop. We of course hope they use the skills and we got letters saying they did, but we wanted to set the standard of expected leadership maturity high. I would say in reality, less then 50% of the units actually did use their scouts to teach JLT. It was a scoutmaster problem. That was back in the JLTC days where scout skills was part of the course. One of the problems we encountered with Scoutmasters is that they expected us to teach their scouts scout skills. Imagine, at age 14 or older, they still expected us to teach scout skills. So, to nip that expectation in the bud, we told the Scoutmasters that we expected the scouts to already know first class skills. We were not teaching cooking either. Boy that was a hot potato for a while as well. Part of the reason for the high standards was to set a council minimum level of expectation for the troops. Not many do that really. In fact there are some councils that encouraged 11 and 12 year old scouts to go to JLTC. After investigation, they were basically just scouts skills developments. I was told that is why National is so insistent that scouts be at least 14 for NYLT. It is to prevent councils from dumbing down the course. My complaint with the new course is that it should be teaching leadership skills instead of vision, mission and team building. Oh sure those are important, expecailly at the adult level, but we should start with the basics before we get into the team building side. That is me of course. Barry

>>It needs to be done in a large group to get the real benefit and needs to be implemented back in the unit. The boy needs a backup.

>>Monocultures sooner or later will not bear fruit anymore. BSA might be the biggest organisation of its kind in the US today, but the way it is run, it will, in the long shot, fail.

>>I agree that there is no sense in having the SPL/ASPL attend if he is half way through his tenure.

>>I don't believe you're hateful; I do believe your perspective is driven by a feeling, not an argument, and I believe you prejudge gay people based on those feelings.

Boy Eamonn, sometimes I wonder if we were at one time joined at the hips. My thoughts are almost word for word the same as you wrote. Just when I felt National was starting to understand the training needs of the adults, they seem to go the opposite direction on the youth side. National just seems to struggle with the big picture. Still, this scouting stuff is pretty tough in the trenches. I'm know it isn't any easier for the professionals in the basement. Barry Barry

>>John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Oddly enough it doesnt say "unless your homosexual"

>>3. If the MBC or Summer Camp counselor doesn't deny the MB work because the kid has no blue card, but instead lets him continue, marks the MB complete, and provides the Council with some piece of paperwork saying the boy completed the MB, the Unit and the Council shouldn't allow it to go through because the boy and the MBC didn't ensure step #'s 1, 2, or 3 were done correctly.

>>My guess is 30-70% of WB's are ManScouts, dependin' on your area. It often attracts da wannabe Eagles who never made it as a kid. I'd say it's a slightly better predictor than the knot-infested.

>>Finally, I would say that if you could see the scout as being SPL or ASPL in the next 1-3 years, then you should send them.

>>However, an SM who doesn't know how to light a fire or sharpen a knife doesn't have much credibility with boys who he is asking to do the same.

>>That menu sounds very similar to what we ate every day at Philmont!

I love this scouting stuff. I think you dont realize your gift as a SM. This is just the next step in the scouts growing maturity and independence and I dont think there is much to say or do for the scouts; they have been camping long enough to know what to do. So your job is find what you can do to ease the minds of the concerned adults, maybe even yours. We adults tend to limit our youths growing experiences by our fears. How can you ease the fears so the adults get out of the way of scouts growth. One idea is explain the adult's concerns to the scouts and ask them what they might do to ease them. I just love reading post about your troop. I look forward to you becoming a adult trainer so you can pass your knowledge and skills on to other adults. Barry

The widely accepted answer is the counselor has the final say. Our council uses the white MB cards and these cards only have one place for the SM's signature. We used to have to use the blue cards when we went to a camp outside our council and I always thought two signatures for the SM was rather confusing. Now most camps accept our white cards. As for lousy summer camp counselors, don't let them sign at the end and find a counselor at home to finish. We have been to camps with some good staffs and some not so good, but my opinion is any troop handing over their advancement program to a summer camp staff gets what they pay for and shouldn't complain. Barry

>>However, as Gern points out, today the tide has already turned in the US with respect to views towards homosexuality. What our parents generation thought of as sinful or perverted our childrens genertion is accepting as being merely different.

Very impressive. When I read about scouts in a troop like this, I want to personally meet the SM because it take a special person of wisdom and patience to not only encourage such leadership, but to also get out of the way. I only have a couple suggestions to add to the already good advice. First, let the scouts do the choosing so they are buying into the idea and have some ownership. Second, be honest about your concerns and gaols for the change. I find when the adults are up front about changes, the scouts will do the best they can to ease the concerns. Hope you hang around, I really enjoy reading about your program. Are you close to Oklahoma? I love this scouting stuff. Barry