Eagledad

This was one of my jobs back when I was both a SM and the District membership Chair. There are a couple things that should be mentioned. At least in our area, 90% of those Webelos who didn't crossover didn't have a good Cub experience while they were Webelos. My research and observations found that most of these scouts didn't have a good adult leader. There are a host of reasons, but it all comes to the same conclusion, it wasn't fun, so why move on? It has got to appear FUN first if you are to bring them for a look-see. I'm not one to plan an activity specifically for recruiting because I think a Troop meeting should be good enough to do that for you. But this is one area I think a fun recruiting activity works well. I like the idea of an open house. Find a local area to set up a campsite and plan fun activities for these scouts. Make sure the scouts run the activities so the Webelos see what they didn't see in their Webelos Den, youth leadership. The activities should be cool stuff that involves outdoor gear like canoes, backpacks, rappelling, and even a climbing wall if possible. The activities should be physical and should not involve crafts. Likely they have been crafted to death in they previous boring Webelos den. Free food like hot dogs, hamburgers and cobbler always attract folks as well. Our troop once did a hot rod night by the guys working on their Auto-mechanics MB. Our District tried a Troop night where all the Troops provided an activity and displays of their troop. It worked pretty well for those webelos dens that showed up, but I always felt the lazy dens who who needed it the most missed out. You can make this as easy or as complicated as you want, but it needs to appeal to pre-teens. Done right and you might get a half dozen new scouts, but my experience is you will only get 10 to 20 percent of the scout scouts on the list. As for who to call. I agree about getting you local area, but we did have scouts in our troop from as far as 10 miles away when they saw our program. I know that doesn't help much there. I hope this triggered some ideas. Barry

righteous? I believe that comes under name calling. We all have our bad days, but one of the ways I worked with the PLC was teaching them to not react instantly to their emotions. Name calling is a sure sign of inmaturity or uncontrolled emotions, or both. Instead they should create some kind of time out until they can instead respond in a mature manner where they talk about the behavior and not attack the person or take words out of context. That does require some degree of patience, maturity, grit and courage, but it draws respect instead of anger or disdain. It also requires practice. We all fall now and then, which then lead us to act with humility to gain back the respect we just lost. Getting up is hard, but we must to have a civil world. Barry

>>The reason I find the second scenario "morally correct" is that the potential bad example I see here is irresponsibility.

>>Barry, sure, there are times when judging is actually important and valuable as a social or moral tool. But when done with extremely limited information, it can lead to false judgments too.

Wow Beav, your post is really good. I saw a similar discussion like this come up when a pack committee found that a CM was also a stripper. I was astonished that some folks felt it was none of the parents business that she strutted around naked every night to entertain men. I have many times explained that young teens are highly influenced by the behaviors of those they respect. A SM is usually one of those persons by default. From a boys perspective, that person wouldnt be a SM if the community didnt think they were a good leader. Influenced? You bet. Of course judging seems to be one of those things today that is becoming taboo. That is silly of course because we judge at judge at just about every moment of our life. Even those who say we shouldnt judge are judging those who say we shouldnt judge. It would be impossible to raise our kids if we didnt judge their every action and guide them toward the right actions. But there come a point to where we want to do things that, well society might not think so accepting. That is where our actions might get judged more harshly. There is a movement today to encourage turning and eye to such things so that we dont feel so bad about our less than accepted behaviors. It is funny to me to read all the discussions in this part of the forum of how morals should not be based from religious teachings. There is usually little discussion of where morals should come from if religion isnt the source. I have often said it was my opinion that without God to be a source to point the needle of our moral compass, the guy with the biggest stick makes the rules. That is the struggle we see today in politics today I think. I read it here many times that it is the liberal left against the religious right. But lets be fair, in this "if youre not for us, then youre against us" all or nothing politics of today, it is the un-religious left against the religious right. It is a fight for Gods stick, dont you think? So here we are in this discussion with our kids hanging in the balance. Our leader, the top Troop role model who our sons look up to for guidance for making moral decisions intended for our sons to have a better life as adults, has just got knocked up. And we are trying to decide if that is OK for our sons to think that is OK. My sons are at that age now where they get to choose to make life and death decisions, even if it is just in fleeting moment of hot passion. If one day one of my sons walks in and ask his mother and me to sit down because he has something important he needs to talk about, I want so badly not to wonder if we did all that was possible to develop him into a man making the right moral decisions. Isnt that what we are talking about with this SM? Barry

I think it's kind of like saying that no 13 year old boy can be a good leader or have the qualities of an Eagle. There are some exceptional young men out there that are better than the adults that are trying to develop them. I had one 17 year old SPL that ran for the position again because he wanted to make some changes to improve the troop. He was so good that I had to give him some of my SM duties to challeng him. He is now 22 and would make a fantastic SM. I hope he is thinking about it. On the other side, I had some ASMs in their 30's and 40's that would be terrible scoutmasters. I don't think one can make a blanket statement about age requirements of any position. Cliff Golden who hovers in this forum from time to time was a SM in his early 20's and has been doing it for I think over 25 years. He has helped me in so many ways to be a better scoutmaster, I can't thank him enough. I will add that I have past his wisdom along in this forum many times. You just have to give folks a chance to learn whether they are worthy or not. For some, it is the same leap taken for women SMs. Barry

Hi All In my opinion a SM only needs dedicated to Scouting ideals and a humble heart. The BSA mission is to make moral decision makers using the Scout Law. That basically requires a SM who understands how use the ideals to develop successful moral decision making adults. Humility is important to prevent the SMs self-gratification and self-servingness from restricting the program and allow others to to bring skills the SM may lack for a quality program. Barry

If its not guilt one way, it can be the other way. We had a couple similar situations, one being with an adult. He lost his temper and hit a scout with a nalgene bottle on the Philmont trail. Scout wasnt physically hurt, but it scared the crew enough to report it. We followed the book and gave our reports. Our SE did his job and reported the incident and the guy got fired from his job. I didnt want that, I only wanted him away from our scouts. Maybe I shouldnt care, but family security is one of our most important responsibilities and I was involved in taking it away from one family. Its a screwed up world and there just arent enough instructions to explain how to deal with every situation. Who knows, maybe reporting it to the school would have only deflected the problem somewhere else and made things worse. I dont know, but scouting sure can be hard. God's peace be with you. Barry

I guess Im not sure what you are asking. I must admit when I read your question, I felt that you don't quite get the campfire. When you suggest team building, I wonder what you did during the day up to the campfire. Instead of trying to understand your question, let me just give a little explination of what I feel about the campfire. The skills to perform a well done campfire are not juvenile and require practice, heart, creativity and showmen professionalism. I think our scouts finally understood that when they got a standing ovation by other troops at summer camp once. From beginning to end, a campfire should grab the audience and pull them through a series of emotions. The times are rare where a boy will be linked together with the outdoors and the deep expressions of himself. As a group, you are pulled to laugh, cry, wonder, ponder and dream in the grand theater with spotlights from an open fire, the roof of the starry sky and air condition of the open breeze. Done well and a man will never forget those nights as a boy. Done well and the campfire can make a lousy day feel good. I believe that mans failure comes from searching for happiness when we should be working for content. But I have to admit that it would be hard to find many events in life that could match the happiness felt from a well done campfire. I more than most sometimes like to think out of the box and try something different. But dont ignore the gains and growth that come from just doing some things better. Better songs with better music. Better jokes and better skits. Better master of ceremonies and better Scoutmaster Minutes. Better fires and better arrangements. I have exited so many campfires in so many ways, but I want to go back to that one campfire where we quietly walked back to our tents listening to bag pipes on a distant hill playing Amazing Grace. Just typing it in this reply brings a tear. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Well said Packsaddle. Barry

>>Articles like this are nothin' more than policy "spin" by people who stand to benefit personally or professionally from a particular public policy position.

New findings indicate today's greenhouse gas levels not unusual By Dr. Tim Ball and Tom Harris http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming051407.htm Hi all, I found this quite by accident while scanning todays news. It is from the Canadian Free Press. At the very least the article is one more contradiction to confuse folks about the new Global Warming crisis. I gave the source so anyone can read it, but one quote goes like this: Clearly, the federal government must immediately convene open, unbiased hearings into the science of climate change, something that has never happened in Canada. If the science driving CO2 reduction plans is as 'solid' as environmental lobbyists would have us believe, then they have nothing to fear. But, if it is wrong, as increasingly it appears to be, then we stand on the verge of the largest, and most costly, science scandal in Canadian history. As I said, it is just another source among the many articles that contradict many articles, but it kind leads to the real problem. I was reading Packsaddles post, which I thought was pretty good. One part of his post hits this whole thread on the head: >> Brent, if you have seen enough evidence to firm up your opinion, that is your choice. I hope you are susceptible to reason if further evidence comes to light that might cause you to reconsider.

>>Finally, be sure you share enough with the DE so that a determination can be made about whether the man should remain registered with the BSA (to potentially serve as a leader in another unit).>How do you two handle the 18 y/o's that want to stay in your respective troops? Do you just assign them as ASM's? Do you place them under the wing of an experienced ASM for a certain time period? Just curious how you do it?

Hi Oak Tree We were at exactly where you are at, we started with 15 scouts and got 50 new scout in two years. We looked at all the options you mentioned. We visited and interviewed several troops to find the best way to limit the troop and I wrote an essay on our experience a few years ago. After several years of watching units from the District and Council level, I feel this essay is pretty accurate. By the way, when I left as the SM about five years after I wrote this essay, our troop had 90 scouts. We were very boy run and 40% of our scouts were 14 or older. Barry Troop size and Troop program (Facts & Myths) by Barry Runnels Everyone has a preference and can list the pros or cons of each unit with regard to size and program. There are some very fine units with all numbers of Scouts. Usually what makes a unit great is a group of adults who focus on what the Scouts get out of the program, not what the adults get. Each one of us has had our own experiences through life, our own way of doing things and our own way of handling situations. We are called Scoutmasters because we supposedly have mastered our life from our experiences. Scouting allows us to hand down what we have learned. How the dominating adults hand those experiences down to the Scouts is going to determine what kind of program your troop will have. Your troop will form itself to a size that fits the program. If you work to be a true boy run troop, you will probably never get larger than 50 ACTIVE Scouts. The SPL in a truly boy run troop can only handle a maximum of 50 Scouts. Really 40 is better. You can rearrange, move around and split groups all you want, but in the end, if the SPL is in charge, 50 Scouts is the limit. Anything more, requires adults to get more evolved with the day-to-day program. If your goals are a large troop and boy run is not a primary concern, then your troop will handle that large number. Whether they know it or not, and most dont, its usually the Scoutmaster who determines the size of the troop by how he guides the program. If a Scoutmaster works through the Patrol Leader Council, the troop will grow to a size the PLC can manage. Increases beyond that will cause the program to suffer and the Scouts and parents will leave for a better program until the numbers fall to a size the PLC can manage. If the SM works the program though PLC and ASMs, it will grow to that size. If the SM works through the adults, the unit may grow very large. The adults in a troop need to agree on what they want the Scouts to get from the program. If its rank and advancement, then it can be more of an adult-run program that will handle lots of boys. If leadership and behavior are more of a priority, then a troop may have to slim down a bit to allow the Scouts to learn from their actions. A few myths: There is a myth that you should feel obligated to accept large numbers of incoming scouts so they can enjoy your wonderful program. The truth is, if the troop size greatly changes, your program will change. Logistics, equipment, number of Patrols and adult leaders will change just to keep up. If the adults and scouts are not ready, you will loose about 25% of your Scouts while the troop leadership scurries to catch up. Your wonderful program may no longer be so wonderful. If you do expect a large influx of new scouts, your leadership should plan now so you dont get lost when they do come. And prepare for a different program that fits your new size. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. Another myth is that you have to keep your numbers low to stay boy-run. Well, yes and no. As I write this, we are the third largest troop (in our district) hovering around 80 Scouts. And we brag to be very boy run, maybe the most boy run troop in the district. But at any given time through of the year, we average about 40 to 50 Scouts at meetings. Sports and other outside activities keep us to that number. So the program is still manageable for the SPL and we maintain a very active boy run program. Another myth is that that splitting your program solves the big troop problems. Not really. We looked at this several different ways and talked to a lot of units who did it. Every unit said that it doubles the logistical problems of the troop for the leadership. The split didnt really solve many of the big troop problems except space. In fact, every leader said the program still felt big and the problems tripled because the communication and management became more critical. Even though each group was smaller, they were still run like big groups, so they still lost the Scouts and adults who wanted a small group program. Units that liked and worked well with the split program had more than 200 Scouts. Thats a lot of scouts. You might go this way, but dont expect to solve your big group problems. Splitting the troop just allowed the big troops to get bigger. If you split, I suggest splitting into a whole new troop with a different charter. STILL difficult, but it forces each adult to focus on one troop and one program. Yet another myth is that you have to take every Scout that comes to your troop. You dont. You dont have to do anything. We have never turned a Scout away from our troop, but I always give visitors names of 4 or 5 other troops in town. I know how important it is to find a troop that fits the family. Those troops are grateful for the help (and isnt being helpful the Scouting way)? Some troops control size by high initial dues. Some control it by only inviting a small limited number of Webelos Dens. Troops that I have seen turn away Scouts up front usually regret it later by the reputation developed from that method. What I am trying to say is you dont really have much control on numbers. You can try, but its difficult. You do have a lot of control on your program. And your program will probably control your numbers. The adults need to sit down and discuss goals, and your experience in the program that will lead you to those goals, (as will training and help from other sources). You need to decide what you want the boys to get out of their experience in your troop and build your plan of action to reach those goals. This may all seem vague and difficult, but if you dont do it, you will regret it later when youre r standing there watching 100 screaming scouts running around waiting for the program to kick in. Gather your adults and ask them to speak openly about where they want the program to go. Agree on a plan and explain that plan to everyone in your troop and visitors to your troop. Then drive the program, with your PLC, to that plan. Eventually your numbers will fit into the program that comes from your plan. Of course the plan will change on the way to your goals, but that is a given. Just recognize the need for a plan and to have everyone working towards it. Ask for prayers, they help a lot. Ask for help from Scouts_L, there is a lot of experience there.

>>So if da structure is gettin' in the way, why don't yeh change it? Forget havin' separate committees for this and that. Have just one "Unit Support" committee and then break out into subcommittees as needed. That way commishes can talk to membership and to program, etc. So many times I see council's and districts locked into a dysfunctional structure because they think they "have to do it that way." Bah. Service first. Everything else is negotiable.

>>Does your Council have an "SPL2B" program?

We pay our guys to go, but our troop invest a lot in leadership development. We also pay for the summer camp fees of our SPL because he works so hard that many times he doesnt have time for a MB class. Now I personally dont think the scouts come back all that different from NYLT, but the course is a tremendous confidence builder for taking on more responsibilities in your troop, which is usually a boys biggest hurdle. Also, our guys plan, train and lead our Troop JLTs, so confidence and maturity are important. To me, the real BIG benefit a troop gains from a scout going to NYLT is he will qualify to get on NYLT staff. As a staff member, your scout will learn and practice the skills to a fine art. Not only that, he will learn the discipline and skills of developing a leadership team. Those are the guys you want coming back to build your program and PLC teams. They will be so good at it that they would good teachers for the adults if theyre willing. For what ever reason, NYLT trained scouts carry themselves a little different. These are the Scouts the young guys really look up to. I know from experience that the main problem with adults is they dont see what the boys get from the program. It is hard to invest that kind of money into something you cant touch or see. I might suggest calling the NYLT course leader and ask him/her to come speak to your committee. Dont pull them into the discussion of money, just ask them to explain the value of the course and what it will do for your scouts and your troop program. That would go a long way in helping the adults buy into the investment. One other thing, we read a lot about how to hang on to older scouts. Typically scouts who attend outside leadership courses like OA and NYLT stay in the program. It is an investment into all our futures. Good question. Barry

>>The important part, IMO,

>>The people who spoke up at the committee meeting actually surprised me because one is a former SM who is usually the one pushing "boy led" and the other is a longtime ASM and probably a future SM (both are on the committee for now). Upon reflection my best guess is that they spoke up when and where they did because the SM did not. Maybe the comments they made were really more a nudge/push for the SM to do a better job of communicating with his SPL.

>>The committee members seem like the only ones who overstepped bounds here, stepping on the SM's and SPL's turf. Chances are the boys know more about boys' backgrounds and what's really necessary for "other patrols' needs" than committee members do. If there's some feedback or additional information to give, it's da SM's role, not the committee's.

>>The inescapable fact is that the overwhelming majority of such climate scientists believe that climate change is a serious problem and that human activities are a major cause. There are a few scientists who disagree, as there generally are with any broad scientific consensus.

>>I guess in your troop if the QM can't be there, the whole troop doesn't go because they don't have a key for the trailer.

>>The SPL will be discussing a change of QM POR this Tuesday with the SM.

I had the same response to that subject. Our troop has two historians because they do a troop newsletter among other duties, and our two scribes update the Web Site, among other duties. I will say that these are challenging responsibilities and require well trained adult counselors. We modified the responsibilities of those jobs and other so that the experience had value toward developing growth in behavior and leadership. If the adults don't see that happening, something should be changed. We talk a lot about SM assigned PORs, but I think this is misused as well. I don't think asking a scout to plan, lead and run a COH has to be equivalent to the responsibilities of a PL, it just needs to be something challenging for the scout to experience in his next step toward growth. If I ask a younger scout to lead a game, it likely is because I see that he needs that responsibility to develop confidence. Our older scouts spend a month training a staff and getting ready for JLT. I don't think any JLT staff scout has asked for credit for the job. Maybe some day. Is the focus a little misdirected here? Shouldn't a job or POS be looked at as helping a boy continue to grow? The rest will follow, or at least it has in my observations. Barry

>>How would the boy know that the troop adults expect him to arrange for a BOR? The boy's Handbook tells him "your Scoutmaster will arrange a board of review for you" (for Tenderfoot) and is silent for the other ranks.