Eagledad

Hi mkahler I hate merges and splits. They are emotional and rarely is everyone happy. Maybe you can help make this go easier. Questions: How many scouts in each pack? Do both packs function OK or is one a lot better then the other? Have you polled the adults in both Packs and how they feel about it? Have you considered two packs under one charter and meet on different nights? I will add that recruiting is a pain if you considered that. Is one pack older then the other, more tradition? Would the families of one pack have to drive a long ways to the other school? As you answer questions, here are a few thoughts from thinking back to experience. Merging into a brand new pack can be expensive in getting a new flag, patches and equipment with a new number. Keep everyone informed so that nobody feels they are being taken advantage. Some folks just hate change. Other folks think that tradition is very important, and they may have emotional attachement to the unit. Wait until May you do merge and combine the crossovers with into the new merge dens. Make a celebration of it and have all the Den leaders there so everyone feels they are working with the same leaders. Barry

>>This makes for unbalanced terms, but there is much less for the elected leadship to do in the summer.

>>Aquila: Woman don''''t belong running the troop, nor sitting in at PLC meetings.

>>Barry: I was very much impresseded that you had 150 boys in your unit.

>>One suggestion is to provide a copy of the SPL handbook to all adults that feel a need to be present at a PLC meeting and request they read it with an eye to finding their role in supporting the SPL.

>>Let me ask this question: for those who have seen uniforming improve over time in a troop, what was the cause? Adult leadership, youth leadership, improvement in other elements leading to more esprit? I''''d be curious to know.

Hi Allangr Im in the beautiful town of Edmond. I think you are going to have to feel your way through this question. Probably 95% of troops do six months as does mine. However, the best run boy run programs I have ever witnessed do 1 year terms. Saying that, some do a 1 year SPL while the other offices are six months and the ASPL is the elected knowing he will step into the SPL job in six months . The advantage of 1 year is that it really takes about 6 months to learn a job well, so the other six months give the scout a chance to really lead and make a difference. ! year coud be a long time with bad leadership, but is unusual because scouts in those troops know well befor what the job requires. Generally those troops have very good leadership and the SPL is at least 16. I tried to do 1 year elections, but we just had too many scouts who wanted to serve offices and they felt 1 year was to long to wait. Our SPLs work really really hard and they would tell me they are ready for a break after six months. But in every case, I have a hard time getting them to step back from the new SPL for the next six months. I think they would enjoy a 1 year stint. Now, I like to suggest troops with only scouts 12 years old and under consider three or four month elections because boys that young burn out really fast and leadership at that age isnt a lot of fun for them. In a true boy run program, they need a break pretty fast. What ever you choose, you need to stick with it for a while to develop traditions and predictable program and training dates. Also, do not ignore when the new scouts come in. Do you want new scouts electing an SPL when they dont know anybody? You may want to give the SPL and SM time to fine TGs before the new scouts show up. There are lots of things to consider, things you may not have experienced yet. Barry

>>Since EagleSon has been in the marching band, I''''ve known no fewer than 4 HS students who do exactly that: Play ball, at halftime, they march with the band! Thankfully EagleSon is not one of these.

>>Second, mentor the SPL and teach him the leadership skills he needs to be an effective leader and get back in the good graces of his peers.

Oh for pete sakes Brent, he was talking in the third person of scouts in the general term talking about their SM in the general term. Adios Amgio? That is not your style. Barry

Holy cow, how does your son play football and march at the same time? Im sure you have a logical answer, but I''m imagining your son making a fine tackle on the quarterback then throwing his helmet on the sideline and grabbing his instrument to run and join the band for halftime. The answer to your question is where there is a will, there is a way. Typically our SPLs are also involved in other activities like band, drama and sports. Our SPLs are very busy, if they can do it, anyone can. But they have to have the will. But Im trying to understand if 15 minutes of scouting is worth all the aggravation. At one time we averaged between 85 and 95 scouts in our troop. However, we average only 65 scouts at meetings because the rest were doing a sport, band or whatever. 90% of those scouts usually only missed a couple to three months of scouting out the year. And in many cases, that was only meetings. Many still made the weekend activities. Our approach is we would rather have you 9 months out of the year then no months. You should have seen us during Christmas break and summer camp when all the scouts could attend. It was a mess. I dont know your troop policy or the parental demands on your kids, but it sure sounds like they are spread pretty thin. Barry

>>At the camporee opening ceremony formation, I pulled the SPL and a couple of older boys over to view a Troop that was in full uniform, with custom Troop neckerchiefs, and pointed out how they looked like a really united team and Troop. I asked what they thought about it, and if they thought our Troop could ever get there. They just shook their heads and said "No way!" I''''m curious to hear what you think an adult leader should do in those situations.

>>Y''''all seem to think the uniform is only to be decided upon by the boys.>Tell me, what do you think B-P was saying when he stated "Show me a poorly uniformed Troop, and I will show you a poorly uniformed Scoutmaster"?>If the Uniform Method was left totally up to the boys, why would B-P say that? What would it matter what the SM wore?

>>Character is doing the right thing, and wearing the uniform is the right thing to do.

>>How hard is it to be in "perfect" uniform?

>>Pack, the post wasn''''t just about the uniform, but also about how some are fanatics about 7 of the methods, and very cavalier about the Uniform Method.

>>I do think it''''s very important that the Scouts know who the leader of the adults is. There can only be one leader. Any more than one clouds and confuses everyone. Eamonn.

Hi All, I hope your fall days are as beautiful as Oklahoma''s right now. Jambo first; I''m having a hard time understanding your post. Are you saying boy run promotes boys only stay in one year, or that they stay in longer? Doesn''t matter really I guess. Our Troop in seven years went from 14 scouts to 95 scouts. 40 of those scouts were 14 and older. We average 1 Eagle every two months and their average was 16. The average of our SPL was 16 and typically two of the top three youth leaders in our local OA came from our troop. If you asked any of the adults in our District and the ones that knew us in council, they would tell you that we clearly were a very boy run programs. I could go on and on and brag some more, but I just don''t like it. So getting to the point, I just don''t think your adults knew how to build a boy run program like we had. That is not a bad thing, it is just understanding that each adult is different. I respond on this forum because our troop had a lot of experience with different styles of programs. We learned what works and what doesn''t work. Not only that, I was involved with a lot of other programs as well while on the District and council. Enough experience that I can to some degree predict the struggles and successes of programs. Not because I''m gifted, but because in large part, human behavior is constant. Given all that, I try to pass along those things I''ve learned trying to help others succeed where I failed and learned the hard way. However, there is one element of scouting that is difficult to predict and makes scouting different in each troop, The Adults. We don''t like to mention him much because he does brings up so much emotion, but one place that Bob White and I did agree was that scouts don''t make good or bad programs, the adults do. So when you talk about changing the program away from boy run for a more successful program, what you are really saying is you didn''t have the skills or vision for boy run, so you developed a program that fit your skills better. Is that bad. No it is not. I have a boy run vision, that is what I do. I could no more stand in an adult run troop for 20 minutes then milk snakes for a hobby. But that is me. When I retired as SM, we had the second largest troop in the District. The first largest was 150 strong and it was pure adult run. When parents visited our two troops, they had a clear understanding of the differences between the two programs just simply watching one meeting. I never had anything bad to say about that program because they typically kept scouts until they were 14. As you said, that is far better then keeping them one year. May I suggest that there just isn''t one program in the BSA. If it works and it is a safe place for our sons, isn''t that a successful program? That doesn''t mean when we discuss styles of programs on this forum I won''t relate my understanding of successful approaches and not so successful because I base that logic from insight and experience. I just want to offer readers here a choice. I think this is important so that all of us don''t start getting in the habit of thinking our way is the only way. It is just one more way. LOCAL1400: My personal opinion is Wood Badge is fantastic at teaching how to set visions and build teams to work toward those visions. If you followed the Wood Badge model, you will have a successful program because it teaches adults how to work together in the worst of times and best of times. My experience of working with failing programs is that 90% of them had no vision and didn''t work as a team. In fact the very first question I asked of units was what is your vision for your scouts? I was doing that before Wood Badge started teaching it. Wood Badge is very good at that and would be the reason I think you should take the course. As for working with the boys, well I don''t think WB teaches that part as well. But, I believe that you get most of that by on the job experience anyways. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>From GernBlansten Ok, I can/will wear the shirt and the switch backs into a restaurant when I''m traveling with the boys, but no way are you gonna get me to wear the shorts with the dorky socks. In my council, we rarely/never see adults wearing the shorts/socks combo. There are limits to my fashion tolerance.>Bob T I had picked up my son after his annual 10-day Sierra trip. He was in uniform, taking his pack out of my truck in our driveway when "the new kid" across the street (whom he had never met) shouted "Gay Scouts" at my son. My son faced him, paused, and said "I just spent the last ten days hauling this pack 60 miles across the Sierras. You want in on that action?"

I am excited to see this. Free market is a better solution then forced intervention. Besides the obvious differences, there also might some new ideas everyone can gain the opportunity. I wish them God speed. Barry

Yes, that is pretty close to us except our transportation cost are a little less then half yours. That extra $500 is a big difference. Another thing we do is give a budget that figures the $5 for breakfast and lunches, but we tell the families the scouts can add more if they need. That way we can set the baseline lower for those scouts who don''t need three burgers for lunch. There should also be another discussion along with this one of how to get equipped on a budget. Boots, pack and sleeping bag can really add up too just looking at it from the outside. Barry

We only live about 10 hours from Philmont, so please excuse my ignorance, but may I ask what cost so much? We do travel to treks that require an over night stop and we usually find a place to stay for free. If you look, there are churches, military installations, BSA hostels and BSA camps who will take you in. $5 is usually plenty for breakfast and lunch each and $10 to $15 for a dinner. I understand you have to fly from as far as NJ, but Ill bet a troop could work out some reasonable transportation from Albuquerque to Philmont during the same day. So Im trying to understand the $1500 cost. That would be a killer for our troop. Barry

>>Beavah, around here the opposite is true. The troops that are well uniformed are much more boy run than the one that isn''''t.

I''m not in favor of a Co-Scoutmaster thing because there will be times that you agree to disagree. I think you can still do everything as you explained, but everyone in the troop needs to know who is responsible for the boys side of the troop program and vision. My best friend and I built our troop together. He was SM first then I took over after four years. We were of the same mind and you would have thought that we had a mental connection when it came boy scouting. But people are different and there were times when we did disagree on things. That is when the the SM at the time had the 51% vote. It will save you on friendships and cut down time on debates. True, this is a team effort, but there has to be a leader with one vision to keep the team on track. As for good readings, The SM Handbook is a great start. Get the SPL Handbook and PL Handbook to complement your other readings. Those books are really the core of the boys side of the program and that is where you need to start your focus. The are a fast read and I think you will find they basically highlight the SM HB. Barry

Hi tcherven How much experience and knowledge do you have about scouting? What was your experience as a youth? I also was involved with my younger sons pack while I was a SM. It worked out OK one my wife set the ground rules. Personally, I dont feel Wood Badge is that big of an advantage. Understand I was on several WB staffs, so I understand the course. WB to me is excellent at understanding how to build a team and seeing your goals, but other then that I would get your CC to take the course and you guys would be a great team. For a first time SM, it takes even the best adult three years to really learn and understand the position to be fully productive. If you have and understanding of Aims and Methods, and I mean a real understanding of those guidelines, goals and objectives, then I think you could handle the task because the rest is on the job training anyway. So long as you know what you want the scouts to gain in character, fitness and citizenship while they are in your troop, then youve got the hardest part out of the way. The only other thing I would like to add is on average, a volunteer typically burns out in two years. Many will push themselves to three if needed, but those who perform best after that time are usually motivated by passion, which I think describes a lot of us here on this forum. Im not sure you can really know what kind of person you are until that time, but you might consider that. I have a friend who like you was an ASM in his older sons troop at the same time a CM in his younger sons pack. He was also on several training staffs. He had always planned to be a SM when his younger son joined a troop and did become one. He is doing OK in his second year of scoutmastering, but he doesnt enjoy it much anymore and would really like to step back to ASM. He has been a full time scouter for almost 15 years now and well, passion isnt even pulling him through now. You are about to eat, sleep, drink, talk, dream scouting for the next several years. Can you make it to 10 years? Can your wife? Good luck and know that we are with you no matter what you decide because we love this scouting stuff and we want no less for you. Barry