Eagledad

Holy cow, how does your son play football and march at the same time? Im sure you have a logical answer, but I''m imagining your son making a fine tackle on the quarterback then throwing his helmet on the sideline and grabbing his instrument to run and join the band for halftime. The answer to your question is where there is a will, there is a way. Typically our SPLs are also involved in other activities like band, drama and sports. Our SPLs are very busy, if they can do it, anyone can. But they have to have the will. But Im trying to understand if 15 minutes of scouting is worth all the aggravation. At one time we averaged between 85 and 95 scouts in our troop. However, we average only 65 scouts at meetings because the rest were doing a sport, band or whatever. 90% of those scouts usually only missed a couple to three months of scouting out the year. And in many cases, that was only meetings. Many still made the weekend activities. Our approach is we would rather have you 9 months out of the year then no months. You should have seen us during Christmas break and summer camp when all the scouts could attend. It was a mess. I dont know your troop policy or the parental demands on your kids, but it sure sounds like they are spread pretty thin. Barry

>>At the camporee opening ceremony formation, I pulled the SPL and a couple of older boys over to view a Troop that was in full uniform, with custom Troop neckerchiefs, and pointed out how they looked like a really united team and Troop. I asked what they thought about it, and if they thought our Troop could ever get there. They just shook their heads and said "No way!" I''''m curious to hear what you think an adult leader should do in those situations.

>>Y''''all seem to think the uniform is only to be decided upon by the boys.>Tell me, what do you think B-P was saying when he stated "Show me a poorly uniformed Troop, and I will show you a poorly uniformed Scoutmaster"?>If the Uniform Method was left totally up to the boys, why would B-P say that? What would it matter what the SM wore?

>>Character is doing the right thing, and wearing the uniform is the right thing to do.

>>How hard is it to be in "perfect" uniform?

>>Pack, the post wasn''''t just about the uniform, but also about how some are fanatics about 7 of the methods, and very cavalier about the Uniform Method.

>>I do think it''''s very important that the Scouts know who the leader of the adults is. There can only be one leader. Any more than one clouds and confuses everyone. Eamonn.

Hi All, I hope your fall days are as beautiful as Oklahoma''s right now. Jambo first; I''m having a hard time understanding your post. Are you saying boy run promotes boys only stay in one year, or that they stay in longer? Doesn''t matter really I guess. Our Troop in seven years went from 14 scouts to 95 scouts. 40 of those scouts were 14 and older. We average 1 Eagle every two months and their average was 16. The average of our SPL was 16 and typically two of the top three youth leaders in our local OA came from our troop. If you asked any of the adults in our District and the ones that knew us in council, they would tell you that we clearly were a very boy run programs. I could go on and on and brag some more, but I just don''t like it. So getting to the point, I just don''t think your adults knew how to build a boy run program like we had. That is not a bad thing, it is just understanding that each adult is different. I respond on this forum because our troop had a lot of experience with different styles of programs. We learned what works and what doesn''t work. Not only that, I was involved with a lot of other programs as well while on the District and council. Enough experience that I can to some degree predict the struggles and successes of programs. Not because I''m gifted, but because in large part, human behavior is constant. Given all that, I try to pass along those things I''ve learned trying to help others succeed where I failed and learned the hard way. However, there is one element of scouting that is difficult to predict and makes scouting different in each troop, The Adults. We don''t like to mention him much because he does brings up so much emotion, but one place that Bob White and I did agree was that scouts don''t make good or bad programs, the adults do. So when you talk about changing the program away from boy run for a more successful program, what you are really saying is you didn''t have the skills or vision for boy run, so you developed a program that fit your skills better. Is that bad. No it is not. I have a boy run vision, that is what I do. I could no more stand in an adult run troop for 20 minutes then milk snakes for a hobby. But that is me. When I retired as SM, we had the second largest troop in the District. The first largest was 150 strong and it was pure adult run. When parents visited our two troops, they had a clear understanding of the differences between the two programs just simply watching one meeting. I never had anything bad to say about that program because they typically kept scouts until they were 14. As you said, that is far better then keeping them one year. May I suggest that there just isn''t one program in the BSA. If it works and it is a safe place for our sons, isn''t that a successful program? That doesn''t mean when we discuss styles of programs on this forum I won''t relate my understanding of successful approaches and not so successful because I base that logic from insight and experience. I just want to offer readers here a choice. I think this is important so that all of us don''t start getting in the habit of thinking our way is the only way. It is just one more way. LOCAL1400: My personal opinion is Wood Badge is fantastic at teaching how to set visions and build teams to work toward those visions. If you followed the Wood Badge model, you will have a successful program because it teaches adults how to work together in the worst of times and best of times. My experience of working with failing programs is that 90% of them had no vision and didn''t work as a team. In fact the very first question I asked of units was what is your vision for your scouts? I was doing that before Wood Badge started teaching it. Wood Badge is very good at that and would be the reason I think you should take the course. As for working with the boys, well I don''t think WB teaches that part as well. But, I believe that you get most of that by on the job experience anyways. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>From GernBlansten Ok, I can/will wear the shirt and the switch backs into a restaurant when I''m traveling with the boys, but no way are you gonna get me to wear the shorts with the dorky socks. In my council, we rarely/never see adults wearing the shorts/socks combo. There are limits to my fashion tolerance.>Bob T I had picked up my son after his annual 10-day Sierra trip. He was in uniform, taking his pack out of my truck in our driveway when "the new kid" across the street (whom he had never met) shouted "Gay Scouts" at my son. My son faced him, paused, and said "I just spent the last ten days hauling this pack 60 miles across the Sierras. You want in on that action?"

I am excited to see this. Free market is a better solution then forced intervention. Besides the obvious differences, there also might some new ideas everyone can gain the opportunity. I wish them God speed. Barry

Yes, that is pretty close to us except our transportation cost are a little less then half yours. That extra $500 is a big difference. Another thing we do is give a budget that figures the $5 for breakfast and lunches, but we tell the families the scouts can add more if they need. That way we can set the baseline lower for those scouts who don''t need three burgers for lunch. There should also be another discussion along with this one of how to get equipped on a budget. Boots, pack and sleeping bag can really add up too just looking at it from the outside. Barry

We only live about 10 hours from Philmont, so please excuse my ignorance, but may I ask what cost so much? We do travel to treks that require an over night stop and we usually find a place to stay for free. If you look, there are churches, military installations, BSA hostels and BSA camps who will take you in. $5 is usually plenty for breakfast and lunch each and $10 to $15 for a dinner. I understand you have to fly from as far as NJ, but Ill bet a troop could work out some reasonable transportation from Albuquerque to Philmont during the same day. So Im trying to understand the $1500 cost. That would be a killer for our troop. Barry

>>Beavah, around here the opposite is true. The troops that are well uniformed are much more boy run than the one that isn''''t.

I''m not in favor of a Co-Scoutmaster thing because there will be times that you agree to disagree. I think you can still do everything as you explained, but everyone in the troop needs to know who is responsible for the boys side of the troop program and vision. My best friend and I built our troop together. He was SM first then I took over after four years. We were of the same mind and you would have thought that we had a mental connection when it came boy scouting. But people are different and there were times when we did disagree on things. That is when the the SM at the time had the 51% vote. It will save you on friendships and cut down time on debates. True, this is a team effort, but there has to be a leader with one vision to keep the team on track. As for good readings, The SM Handbook is a great start. Get the SPL Handbook and PL Handbook to complement your other readings. Those books are really the core of the boys side of the program and that is where you need to start your focus. The are a fast read and I think you will find they basically highlight the SM HB. Barry

Hi tcherven How much experience and knowledge do you have about scouting? What was your experience as a youth? I also was involved with my younger sons pack while I was a SM. It worked out OK one my wife set the ground rules. Personally, I dont feel Wood Badge is that big of an advantage. Understand I was on several WB staffs, so I understand the course. WB to me is excellent at understanding how to build a team and seeing your goals, but other then that I would get your CC to take the course and you guys would be a great team. For a first time SM, it takes even the best adult three years to really learn and understand the position to be fully productive. If you have and understanding of Aims and Methods, and I mean a real understanding of those guidelines, goals and objectives, then I think you could handle the task because the rest is on the job training anyway. So long as you know what you want the scouts to gain in character, fitness and citizenship while they are in your troop, then youve got the hardest part out of the way. The only other thing I would like to add is on average, a volunteer typically burns out in two years. Many will push themselves to three if needed, but those who perform best after that time are usually motivated by passion, which I think describes a lot of us here on this forum. Im not sure you can really know what kind of person you are until that time, but you might consider that. I have a friend who like you was an ASM in his older sons troop at the same time a CM in his younger sons pack. He was also on several training staffs. He had always planned to be a SM when his younger son joined a troop and did become one. He is doing OK in his second year of scoutmastering, but he doesnt enjoy it much anymore and would really like to step back to ASM. He has been a full time scouter for almost 15 years now and well, passion isnt even pulling him through now. You are about to eat, sleep, drink, talk, dream scouting for the next several years. Can you make it to 10 years? Can your wife? Good luck and know that we are with you no matter what you decide because we love this scouting stuff and we want no less for you. Barry

>>I find that if a boy is trained in servant/lead by example leadership they have no need to lead by intimidation/direct command. While it may work once or twice, as soon as a boy gains the reputation of bossing or bullying, they have to start over earning the follower''''s trust.

I always get excited when the PLC changes a part of program to improve performance. I agree with Fscout about guarding the principles of the program, but I also want to see if they have a good idea. I dont see this becoming a bad it, I wouldn''t hesitate explaining my concern to the PLC and having a discussion that might lead to an even better idea. That has happened several times. I love it when scouts think out of the box. Barry

Excellent post Jblake. I applaud everything you said and wish we talked about servant leadership more, even in our training. I disagree on one point. After working with our older scouts in our troop, the council JLTC and the OA, I believe the ages these young men are mature enough for direct commands is closer to 16 and 17. The problem I found is that even at those ages, most adults still don''t see them or trust them as adults. WE just don''t give them enough opportunites to allow them to show their abilities. But give them the environment, they prove themselves very well. Barry

>>What''''s the purpose of a tour permit? Probably to let you council know where you are taking your unit & supposedly to ensure the proper traveling procedures are followed.

Beavah and EagleInKy just gave two excellent replies. Your scouts have been raised all their life to do what adults ask of them. They dont have experience with doing what the other boys tell them to do. That is new and it has to developed. As Beavah points out, they need to be motivated to respect their SPL. You cant just tell them to respect the SPL. EagleInKy makes an excellent point to always support your SPL. This is very important. He is the boss, you are only his advisor. The other scouts have to see that you also respect his authority. When you need to talk and advice, do it in private. To emphasis the important of giving the scout leaders respect, the adults are trained to never put up their sign first. The youth leaders must get control of their scouts. IF we adults need control of the scouts to talk about something, we asked the youth leader in the room to get control of the scouts for us because they are the leader. That also reminds the adults how to maintain respect even though there are going to be those days they dont deserve much. One other thing about this. IT is easy to get frustrated with scouts on these kinds of things, but it is not a scout problem. IT is an adult problem. You just havent figured how to deal with it yet. We all went through it or are going through it because no adult knows how to be a perfect scout leader first time. You will learn how to work and with this problem and be better prepared for it the next time. That you are asking these questions is proof that you are already a pretty good leader. I look forward to reading future stories of how your troop matures. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>This Troop is large (~80 scouts). PLC decides the menu for the whole troop. The Troop has a Gubmaster that is in charge of buying the food for the whole Troop. Duty roster is done by the PLC, on a patrol basis, with things like cooking assigned to a whole patrol or multiple patrols, same with other duties on Troop activities.

>>I was once told..."scouting is for every boy...but every boy isnt for scouting"...I fought the idea, at first. But then it becomes a matter of resources...where to spend your time and energy to do the most good...do your best and dont beat yourself up too badly

>>the official interpretation of the APA is that the *credible* evidence out there supports that childen in households with two same-sex parents are just as successful in all measurable ways as children in households with two opposite-sex parents. But, again, you''''ve made your opinion of the APA incredibly clear from previous posts. However, like you, I am also nauseated by the misrepresentation of research for political gain (such as a "traditional family, anti-SSM" agenda).

>>Well, Barry, I am a psychologist who actually works in that field. We''''ve gone back and forth on this before, and will get no where doing so again. You say the studies supporting one conclusion are biased, I say the studies supporting the other conclusion are biased. But I can''''t let Gonzo''''s statement go without giving challenge that perhaps it is not a solid, accepted fact as he has presented it.

>>"Studies show that children do better in two parent male and female homes." No, they don''''t. At least, not ones done by anyone other Focus on Family.