Eagledad

The February/March thing came in when the BSA changed to New Scout Patrols. It was kind of forced because the big idea was to get the Webelos to crossover in herds instead of by birthday. The intent was that a shy scout would come with his buddies when he wouldnt come by himself. Not a bad idea really. Im not sure National saw the changes it would force through the whole program. February/March are standard crossover months for several small reasons. If the Webs waited until the end of the school year, they would likely not be ready for summer camp and troops might loose them. If they waited until September, then the troops might again loose new scouts who just decided during the summer to not come back. February works well because that is Blue and Gold and when most Webelos were done with AOL. And most Webelos leaders will agree that their maturity is ready. So while National didnt push February, it became the most logical. To answer one other question, back when scouts crossed over by birthdays, there was consideration for those few unusual scouts whose birthday didnt fit with friends. Just like now, National didnt want to loose scouts back then either. Oh one other thing, the discussion keeps talking about annual planning. Bob is right that there is no uniform set time for annual planning. But it is still different now for troops. That is another thing the New Scout Patrol changed. Before when scouts joined on birthdays all year long, the program didnt really have a repeated annual program because it had to stay a bit mixed for advancing new scouts through the year. Now most troops follow a kind of First Year First Class program that starts in February or March. There is no official national annual planning of course, but the addition of the NSP and/or FYFC has kind of forced one to some degree. Barry

Hi Lisa Ah the memories. We learned to talk a lot to the parents. I talked about the process within the chaos. Even just an outsider watching a patrol walking from the opening to the patrols corners looks chaotic to an outsider because the scouts are joking, laughing and even poking at each other. You know boy stuff. But once you get that parent to look at how they are walking together to the next activity and that the patrol leader truly is respected as the leader, you can start to melt away some of the chaotic fog. Show them what they arent looking at. It is very important that you discuss boy run independence. Many of the adults are used to seeing and hearing organized progress. Stuff like organized advancement classes, letters from the adults and calls. They are going to get a lot less of that now and it will stress the parents a little. So you need to explain that developing independence is part of putting responsibility on their son. The program is still going on, they just arent hearing as much about it. If their son doesnt seem to know what all is going on, then they should call the troop guide or older scout. If that doesnt seem to answer the questions, dont get stressed, call the adult adviser. What you want to head off is the adult getting so frustrated that when they do eventually say something, they arent venting on a scout. While you are saving a scout from that situation, you are also saving the parent. We eventually developed a new parent program that required the parents attend three meetings. The meetings were basically an hour of explaining the troop program, aims and methods, PLC and PLC meetings, advancement, merit badges and MB counselors and youth protection. While at these meetings, we would visit a PLC and Patrol Corners meeting for a few minutes. And again, we would explain that while at first it does appear chaotic, there is process happening, it is just a youth age. As for getting a lot of new scouts, we spend a lot of time training all the scouts how to have patience with the new scouts and how to talk to them when they are little out of control. New scouts are your least disciplined and most likely to get out of control. New scout parents like to see adults jump on that, but that doesnt help the new scout learn who the youth leaders are. So we worked on procedures for all the scouts to stop new scouts running around out of control by stopping them and talking to them about proper behavior. No yelling or forceful touching, just walking over to the scouts, asking them to stop. If they dont stop because they think you are just another scout and dont care, then ask for help, but do it all respectfully with a smile. That is what the parents must see. You are right to understand that the parents are the difficult side of this situation. Many troops are so overwhelmed that the put all their energy on the scouts, but the parents are the ones that need to feel safe. Teach them your program. Also, you are in a new level of your troop. These familes joined because you have a pretty cool troop. However, the troop may take a little step back in performance for a little while until everyone gets their feet under them, so ask them for a little patience. Ask for their help also by asking questions instead of waiting and maybe get more frustrated. If little Johnny is frustrated but to shy to ask for help, then while Johnny isnt looking, talk to his older scout leader or adult so that we can find a way to work with him. Give us a chance before things get to frustrating. One other thing, I found that adding more then two brand new scouts to a patrol at once can really upset the patrol dynamics. Your patrols may be fine, but when we had enough new scouts that would add three or more, we did new scout patrols for six months then mixed them in existing patrols. I can add more detail if that becomes a consideration. But you know how much I hate NSPs. You will know how well you have done by the end of summer camp. That is when the scouts will not come back if they dont like the program. But I expect you guys will do very well. Hope this helps. We were where you are at many times. Barry

>>I'm not going to debate the circumstances of is this/is this not an appropriate trip. Regardless of what the National Council says, if the local SE says do one, then you do one. Period.

Great Friday All >>But if something happens on the trip (some serious injury) you could have serious liability problems if you didn't have one filled out.

Welcome to the forum. I will lead off by saying that there is a big difference between developing boys to lead the troop and letting boys run the troop. In one style, the adults take a very active role in making sure the scouts are learning and growing. In the other, the adults dont. The other important point that also needs to brought in is scouts leading the troop is not the primary purpose of the program. The primary purpose is to develop men who make ethical decision based from the values of the Scout Law and Oath. The BSA encourages scouts running the troop because when done correctly, it is a very efficient method of developing scouts toward the goal of making ethical decisions. Running a program as complicated as troop puts them in real life stressful situations, which gives them a lot of practice in making decisions based from the scout law, or not. To learn something you have to practice that thing. If the adults are doing their job right, they arent being proactive with the scouts, they are being reactive to their performacne. For example: The meeting should be packed full of activities for two hours. A good Scoutmaster is going to discuss with the SPL how well the meeting went, how well they accomplish the planned goals and what could they do differently to have a better meeting next week. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I guess I'm not quite sure what the big deal is over 10 minutes. Most boy run PLCs struggle just to finish the meeting on time. But that being said, if the scouts are given the responsibility to start and finish the meeting on time, whatever that time is, then it will be a good experience for everyone. This kind of makes me wonder if I was over the line. I usually met with the SPL and the PLC seperatly after the meeting. We rarely went ten minutes total, but the SPL in our troop is the last to leave the building and he locks the doors. Never had any complaints. Barry

>>I now presume I mistook that, too.

The Jansport Scout is a great pack and one of my favorites for younger scouts. Depending on your sons size the bar should sit just above his head. The pack fits best on boys under 56. If your son is 52 or taller, then his hip belt needs to be moved down on the pack. If your son is shorter then the 56, then the bar shouldnt be a problem. It sit pretty far back. To adjust this pack, loosen the thumb screws on the bar the shoulder straps are attached. There is a thumb screw on each end of the bar. But be careful and make sure the screws are very loose before moving the bar because the screw attachments have a tight tolerance on the post. This is a very strong pack, but the reason it is strong is because of the tight tolerances of the attachments. When you move the bar up or down, move both ends at the same time. If you move only one end of the bar at a time, you will kink the attachment into the post. If that happens, it may require a light tapping from a small tool to un-kink the bar. With the bar loose and the shoulder straps loosened most of the way out, have your son put the pack on and tighten hip belt pretty tight. Then slide the bar up or down the post until the shoulder straps attachment points are about an inch above his shoulder. Tighten the thumb screws with your fingers and have your son pull the straps tight. The strap attachments points at the bar should still be about an inch above your sons shoulders. Now, put about 15 or 20 pounds (canned food in the pantry) of weight in the pack and have your son walk around. Is the top cross bar a problem? This is a really good pack for the younger scouts because it holds up very well to back packing abuse for its size and it is very adjustable for growing boys. I also like it because it loads from the back instead of the top. That makes it a lot easier for young scouts to find gear in the dark when the pack is sitting in a tent. Adjusting the pack is easier then most packs once you get the hang of it, especially on the trail. The reason I like that is as the pack settles on hips through the day hiking, the shoulder straps may need to be adjusted again. This pack and its big brother the Jansport Carson adjust very easy on the trail. I would say half the scouts on our Philmont crews use the Carson because of cost and quality. Our most active backpacking scouts tend to move on to better packs. Let us know how it goes. Im sure we can make it work. Barry

Call the scout office, ask for the DE (District Excutive) of your district. Get their cell number if they aren't in the office. That person will be excited to help you out. Barry

Good Tuesday All There are so many frame styles for packs. For most external frame packs, if the shoulder straps are not attached to the cross bar you are describing, then it is likely part of the frame and not intended to be adjustable. If that is the case, the hip belt is attached too high up on the frame and needs to be adjusted down. If the shoulder straps are attached to the cross bar behind his head, then that cross bar is too high on the frame and it needs to be lowered a lot. And likely the hip belt may need to be raised on the frame as well. Ya, that can all be confusing, but typically raising and lowering the hip belt on the frame is the major adjustment to how the frame fits the torso. Then the shoulder straps are adjusted to fit last. SSScout has good instructions for adjusting a typical external frame pack. If they dont seem to work for your son, then the pack may be the wrong size. Can you give us the name of the pack and your sons height and weight? Barry

I'm not sure if that is a local thing or not, (Eamonn?). Typically in our council the ASM of TGs helps the TGs in the approve the tickets. The CD may are may not get involved depending on their time and how much they trust the ASM. Usually the TGs do get some help in the process because they are very busy and they are typically the new kids on the block. Barry

From Kudu:>> But as you have discovered, people do not vote in their own best interests, they always vote for the most amusing personality (see "Bill Clinton" and "George W. Bush").> Simply doing the bidding of the adults isn't functional leadership. If one wishes to be helpful (i.e. refer to Scout Law) take on whatever support role they feel most comfortable with. If one ends up the troop "buffoon".

>>I really want to work with this kid, but am getting very weary of Mom. How can I possibly help her son grow and learn as a Scout and in his POR, most likely resulting in hard lessons for him, by having to worry about his Mom making a scene.

>>Yah, I reckon John-in-KC is just startin' to get used to talkin' like a cuddly, cute little beavah, eh?

>> Chivalry looks and sounds nice but it was really nothing more than a mode of behavior for the privileged.

Great Friday All Hi Victonate Except for the part where Bob White suggests ignoring the folks on the internet, I agree with his suggestions. They arent over the top in this instance. I give you extra credit for taking the SM Specific course. You didnt say if the SM took that course, but Eamonn is correct that you could also be suffering from a training high. I get it just teaching and it takes a little time getting my feet back on the ground. The thing here is while the CC has responsibility for quality of the program; the Scoutmaster is the soul of the program. The scoutmaster is the philosophical vision for the troop. I once described the Scoutmaster as the Gate Keeper of the Vision. That doesnt mean the CC has to leave the SM unchecked in the way he works toward that vision. I once watched a very savvy CC save the Troop from a law suit because the SM was a bit too protective of his scouts. He was a great SM, but he hadnt learned his limitations yet. She save his rear. She was the best CC Ive seen because she had a way of keeping checks and balances on the SM without having to bring in a lot of drama. She took the SM out to lunch several times to talk about troop business, then she would casually slip in her concerns about the SM performance. Perfection is built from the steps of humility. If you and your SM cant understand that, well then drama will eventually take over. So where does that leave everyone else? Ive always felt that the job of the CC is to find out what the Scoutmasters visions or goals are for the scouts, and then if the CC agrees with the SM, they protect the SM so he/she can build the program toward that vision or goal. The CC needs to make sure everyone learns and understands the vision of the troop. Does you Scoutmaster have a vision or visions for the program and for the scouts? You cant know that until you spend some time with each other talking about this scouting stuff. If he doesnt, then it is time to bring in the adults and discuss it. I personally think that Wood Badge is very good for this very thing. It teaches about visions and team building. Eamonn should have wonderful advise for you in that area. Meanwhile, it is important that you get everyone up to speed with the program. Training is important and I certainly think you will get way ahead there. I do admire you for drudging through Scoutmaster Specific. I personally think all the committee and ASMS should take it because the units are the ones that think with one mind. It can be a painful course depending on who teaches it. But once everyone agrees on the vision and goals, the adults function a lot better. Let drama be your measurement to how fast you approach this situation. If this situation has any kind of negative effect on the scouts or program, than you are going too fast. Backup and come in with a different plan. If you are to have integrity, you have to be logical and professional. You have to approach the situation as a representative of the BSA, not your emotions. Barry

I think you know what to do. I don't mean to sound flippant when I say a Scout I Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. So that is why I think you know what the right think is to do. What is bothering you is that you dont feel that youre being treated fairly. And I agree from your side of the story. But, I think people will notice. When things get tough, people look for those they can trust and count on. If you want to stand out and be the best choice, then you have to stand out as the best choice. Those who make promises and dont keep those promises will stand out as well, but not as the best choice. They will in the long run be left behind. The bible says we grow by our struggles. Those who dont struggle dont grow. You are in the middle of one of those life struggles. These things will keep happening as you get older, so now is the time to learn how to deal with it. Learn now so you can help your friends when it happens to them. There are several paths you can take in your frustration and anger, but generally the Scout Law will lead you to the best path. You base your next steps from the law, and your choices become easier. And when you are confronted with this same situation as you get older, you will be more prepared then the others. Remember, everything we do in life is practice for the next thing we do in life. And what we practice, we learn. Dont let the anger and frustration drive you to practice the wrong thing. When you think of yourself as a Scoutmaster one day, what would you want a scout in the same situation to do? Its not just you, but the rest of the scouts who are needing a Quarter Master. And I think you will find that serving others sure eases the pain. You are better than the other guy. Hold your chin up and prove it to everyone one. Next elections are only a few months away. You can prove a lot in those few months. If I were your scoutmaster, I would be proud of you for just asking for advice. You didnt react, you are thinking about what is best. Those are the great scouts. Good Luck. Barry

>>I have to say that, offense or no offense, I remain perplexed by the desire to cling to the fiction ( Disney, as a couple of people put it).

Sometimes we tend to over complicate things that were intended to be simple. As an engineer, I tend to spend as much time scaling down my original idea as I did coming up with the idea in the first place. It drives me crazy, but because I know I have that problem, I also watch for it in other parts of my life. I used to drive our District Committee crazy because I had a knack for asking these types of questions. They seemed rather excited when I move up to council. Hmm My fear in this case is the adults would put in more of their volunteer time then the benefits are worth and you could risk burnout. I was thinking along the lines of what Scoutnut said; the extra work to accommodate tiger age boys may be more then they want. But Cubmaster Randys observation is worth noting as well as yours, so we have to weigh these things. I sure would like to give Eamonn a little more space from the rock. Barry

>>One observation that I have made in my old pack was that when we did do spring recruiting, we signed up more tigers. I think this is because we got ahead of all the other activities that they were being asked to sign up for.

Hi All Eamonn, I have a couple questions that you and Lisabob may know. How much does recruiting in the Spring help the total Tiger numbers over the total numbers (Fall) before you started recruiting in the spring? It seems to me that you are recruiting the same pool of scouts you would be recruiting in the Fall. So Im wondering what you are trying to gain by recruiting in the Spring. Barry

>>In fact I don't believe you will find that the BSA even cares as to what age a scout earns any of the upper ranks, as long as it is prior to their 18th Birthday.

My bad, I guess its been a while. Barry

Hi Trailblazermom Your son can certainly earn both badges in six months if he is willing. However, that is a lot of focus on just the advancement part of the program. You have to measure your son personally, but most boys who ram that much Webelos advancement through in six month aren't going to enjoy the program very much. As a SM and a CM, I would suggest to just a reasonable goal of earning the AOL because that award carries over into the Troop. If your son is ambitious, then you might consider the Webelos award as well. But I sure would make sure he is first having fun. When your son looks 20 years back on his Webelos experience, how do you want him to reflect on the experience? I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I don't reckon a single one of us would suggest that the SPL handbook and the 3-hour TLT and an admonition to follow them is enough for our youth to be successful.