Eagledad

>>Yah, I think yeh need to give some pointed feedback to your council folks, eh?

If I may eghiglie, I think you are asking the wrong question. You should be asking; How do I get my scouts to be more efficient with their time?. The answer is agendas and schedules. Scouts need targets and goals to shoot for. All the other replies are good except they dont include the motivation to change. The agenda is the most important tool a SM can give scouts so they can develop independence, planning skills, creativity and spontaneous reorganization. I learned at our JLTC that only about 10% (give or take) of the SMs in our district teach using agendas. Dont blame the BSA because agendas are in SPL Handbook and the SM Handbooks. The scouts who attended our JLTC course wrote at least 24 agendas and schedules through the course. Our SPL writes an agenda for every meeting that he leads. That means he writes one pre-troop PLC meeting agenda, a troop meeting agenda, and a post Troop PLC meeting agenda every week. The post PLC meeting agenda is pretty easy and written during the troop meeting. We also expect a Campout agenda or schedule for the Patrol Leaders, SPL and SM before we leave the church to our campout. The SM will hold the SPL to item on the schedule. In that schedule includes the troop assemblies after each meal. That is on purpose so that the scouts have fit their business inside the schedule. How do we do this. I follow the agenda to the T. The adults will walk to the assembly area on time. If the rest of the troop is late, well the SPL has to account for that. Eventually he will get tired of being imbarrased. Summer camp is a great place to teach agendas. Let the SPL take the troop to camp assembly and if he is late, well you get to see how he adjust. But their nothing like a Dozen other troop watching your troop came in late. The hard part for you is not to take it personally or say anything. You might that night ask the SPL if he intends to do something different. Heres the thing, how does anyone stay organized without an agenda or schedule? The reason the scouts take so long to cook is because they can. Does your troop wait for them, or do they assemble at the time marked on the SPLs agenda or schedule? When a patrol is allotted a certain amount of time to do a task and they cant make it, they have to change. Our Troop has a PLC meeting 1 hour before every troop meeting. The scouts have to complete that meeting before the meeting so the SPL can start the troop meeting ON TIME. They didnt do it at first, but they changed and improved. The SPLs also learn how important and agenda is because typically chaos follows when they try to go from memory. And the clock hold the SPL accountible. All the SM has to do is ask for a copy of the agenda and ask later what happened. Your troop will become a slave to the clock. That is a good thing. It will take some time for your SPLs and scouts to develop the discipline of that annoying agenda. But, once they do get use to it, then allow them to not use it and they will beg to use it next time. Agendas really help scouts do their jobs. They will see them as maps. And it will carry over into their adult lives. My wife still comments how I am always trying to improve my routine to save time and get more done. I got that from boy scouting. Oh, one other thing, Rosters. I dont know why but those are things are not use much today, but rosters are how you develop loyalty in patrols. When scouts see in writing that everyone will eventually be a cook or KP, they dont balk, they just do their job. Rosters work better is the PL can write them before they leave for camp. But, just get the PL use to posting a roster at the beginning of camp so he doesnt have to nag his scouts. If the Agenda or Schedule says Troop Assembly 8:00am. The cooks know they have get up and be finished cooking in time to give the KP guys time to get their job done. Or, this might be a discussion item on the SPLs agenda at the tonights PLC meeting. By the way, as a SM when you see that they are mastering their time pretty good, it is time to change the rules a little: Like not using paper plates to save time. You want them to get better at organizing, so suggest that the patrol start using real plates that have to be cleaned. When they master that, add another kink. You may think I was mean, but I had set in guidelines that every breakfast and dinner had to be cooked. But, our troop got good enough that they could break camp and be ready to for final troop assembly to load the cars within 45 minutes. That was 60 scouts working together as a team for 45 minutes. Took away to get there, but I remember when it happened, an ASM leaned over and said it was time to add another kink. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Isn't having the leadership skills needed to get a job done more important than teaching skills that might only be used by a number of the participants?

>>Sure they are. If you can not discuss Scouting topics like Baden-Powell's 100 yard distance between Patrols, then discredit the idea by attempting to discredit the person.>I suspect that male obesity is THE primary force supporting the "re-invention of Boy Scouts."

Observations are not personal attacks and humility is the greatest trait that a boy can witness from his mentor. Barry

That was a personal poll I took for about three years in my Scoutmaster Specific Course and two Wood Badge courses. I'm one of those kinds of people that when I see a trend that needs to change, I try something new. I was catching a lot of heat from District for requiring all the SM Specific participants bring a SM Handbook. So I started polling with the intention of proving how much difference using the Hand book made. Well I was shocked by the numbers. I couldnt prove it made any difference because nobody was reading it. I will say the 5% who did read the whole handbook were typically very good leaders and they also read a lot of other material from sources like Baden Powell. They were also more educated and had professional jobs. So, I made a change. I quit requiring all my Scoutmaster Specific participants bring a SM Handbook except the Scoutmasters and Committee Chairs. I only required them to make sure they had one, I didnt care if they read it. Instead, I personally give each SM in my course a copy of the SPL Handbook, and Patrol Leaders Handbook and had them promise me that they would read them that night. Truth of the matter is the SM Handbook doesnt give a new Scoutmasters all that much than the Scout Handbooks to get a program rolling. And most adults can read both PL and SPL Handbook inside an hour. I encouraged every participant except committee members get a copy of the SPL and PL Handbooks. At around $ 8.00 each, I could only afford to give Scoutmasters free copies. My wife would go through the roof if she knew how much I spent during those years. Lets keep that between us. I started then and have since taught that if the adults guided the program using the SPL and PL handbook along side the scouts using those handbooks, they couldnt go wrong. I dont teach now, but I still forward that suggestion when I can, like here on the forum. 300 feet coming from someone who sounds angry at the world will go nowhere, but reading about patrol method along side a scout clears the fog. So is that a scientific study? Well I am an engineer, a bit of a scientist I guess. So yes, that was a scientific study you can bet your marbles on. Have a great day and good luck to those on Trappers Rendezvous in Kansas. Barry

Hi All I used to teach my scouts that your true character is how you would act when nobody is looking. I like to monitor scouting forums because scouting is my passion. But I also glance at other forums for various reasons and it seems like there is a trend that folks are getting down right rude and obnoxious. I even see more of it here on this forum where I think folks behavior would be at a higher standard. It got me wondering that maybe we are seeing the character of people of when they feel nobody is looking? Are folks starting to think it is OK to see the worst of them because we cant see their face? I use to really enjoy the new computer technology because it allowed us to spread information faster and farther. But now Im not so sure it is worth the baggage it brings with it. I have always dreamed that maybe someday I would be invited to a reunion of sorts for the Scouters of Scouters.com. And I would hope that folks would look forward to meeting me as much as I would certainly look forward to meeting you. But are their some folks who would rather I just skip the reunion because I exposed some character that I wouldnt have done in person. I sure hope not. Barry

I cant express the pride I feel for you folks when reading these post. Its what makes me love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>he confesses he has no outdoors other than how to program a Garmin, would any version of the elder Wood Badges have taught him in 6 days all the skills he needs?

If PETA mock the LDS, then is it ok to mock PETA? I have no respect for PETA, they openly support domestic terrorism for their cause. That is not very scout like. Barry

>>I suspect that male obesity is THE primary force supporting the "re-invention of Boy Scouts."

>>Guess I am asking - any advice? for the older guys to not feel like glorified babysitters.

>>I would like to see a recognizable senior patrol leader and patrol leader, boys leading activity's.

Hi All My son's troop visits are the reason we decided to start our own troop. We ended up taking over a dead troop of six scouts, but it was for the reason that we didnt like the way troops we visited were running. Most of the troops in our district have a CS campout as well, but our troop doesnt plan campouts or troop meetings specifically for recruiting. Our goal is every campout should be a great one and we tell the Webelos leaders that when they are ready, give us a shout. We just ask for one weeks notice so a Troop Guide will have time to help them prepare. Sometimes we ddidn't get it and we still did fine. I know we were lucky, but we never had a bad experience with the Webelos and they got to go with us on fun campouts like Biking, Shooting Sports, Triathlon Camping, Rappelling and campouts I dont remember. I think part of it is Cubs just like being with older scouts. Still, I like the idea that the what the Webelos see is what the get for the rest of their scouting experience. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Example: Troop base camp on Fri night. Patrols spread out as local conditions allow. Program during the day. Mid-afternoon the PLs are given instructions to relocate their patrols to new locations. Sometimes this is using map&compass, sometimes they're just given GPS coordinates. They pack up and head out to set up their solo patrol campsite for the evening. The guys love it. After dark, adults and/or SPL usually sneak around to check on things. If conditions are really rough (severe cold, rain, etc.), we might openly visit a campsite for a few minutes. For a different twist, we'll hit them with a surprise relocation after dark. This adds extra adventure and avoids the hassle of hauling food and cooking stuff.

>>Yah, easy there, Hal. I didn't really catch that you were tryin' to ask any of us how to run independent patrol treks, eh? More that you were fearful of 'em and arguin' against them. Maybe Eagledad and I both missed it. It's just that folks who really do run units with independent patrol outings think it's normal, and don't really see your worries and objections in the same light.

>>Each Scout leader needs to decide where his or her bravery line is drawn in permitting independent youth activities.

So Hal, are you saying the answer in your troop is NO? Barry

>>I have read many books from the early years of scouting and it was always the responsibility of the patrols to recruit their own members to fill out their 8 man patrols.

>>What level of first aid training do the scouts have, what are they carrying as a first aid kit, what are the "bail outs" along the trail, how would you get help if you needed it?

You can go as far as you want really. Or troop sometimes looks for a place where the Older Scouts take off in one direction and the rest of the troop go the other direction and rendezvous somewhere in the middle to camp. We brake camp in one location and move to another. Start small like letting your scouts out a mile or so away from your camp site on monthly campouts and have them meet you there. Next time do the same thing only have them carry their packs. Next let them out three miles away or just get creative. Look for opportunties for the scouts to hike without adults. Like summer camp, do the adults have to hike with the scouts to the dinning hall. Develop your scouts independence (and get the adults use to it) over time to where everyone is comfortable that the patrol can be left on their own. We adults tend to limit our scouts by our fears of what could happen. So what you do is train and practice the skills necessary to ease the adults fears and push out the envelope of scout independence. I had so much confidence in of our older scout groups that the two adults I sent with them to Philmont had no experience what so ever in backpacking except for the shakedowns. Both adults where in their 60s and the older scouts took very good care of them. Training and experience, thats all you need to do. Its just that some folks automatically dont consider the idea so they dont even start training to get the experience. But it all adds more fun to the program. Funny story, we dropped off the scouts to hike into camp one weekend and planned it so that they would walk into a simulated car accident. Our older scouts set up the mock accident with fake blood and broken bone and such. It all worked out well and everyone had fun. But two months later our caravan of cars drove up on a real accident while going to summer camp. Ever scout jumped out ready to help the injured. The accident was caused by slick roads from a recent rain and we adults were afraid another car would loose control into one of our 80 scouts. So we asked them to get back in the cars and you should have heard the bashing I took by not letting them help with the first-aid. Ah, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>As a point of interest, how do your Scouts follow the MB sign-up guidelines (get a list of counselors, contact counselor, set up meetings, etc.) at summer camp?

>>When in doubt, ask the Scout. You will be amazed at how often the solution will be simpler and fairer than anything you could think up on your own.

A few years back our district committee was having trouble finding someone to plan and lead our annual District Merit Badge Fair. Because of that, we (the district committee) considered canceling it. When word of that got out, I got a rush of calls from Scoutmasters complaining that if we canceled the fair, their scouts would not be able to advance. In short, the troops in our District had developed their unit advancement program down to the MB fair and summer camp. I got the brunt of the calls from SMs because it was my suggestion to the committee to cancel the Fair. I wasnt a fan of the fair anyways, but my suggestion was based from the idea that District shouldnt have to provide any activity that the units arent willing to support. The committee took the calls from the SMs as a sign of urgency to get the MB fair going. I got up and told them that it is the units job to provide a healthy program of advancement and the fair is a major cause of the problem and continuing the fair was just feeding the problem. We should be training the SMs to how they are supposed to lead the advancement part of their program. The committee didnt take my suggestion. We keep getting into discussions where folks on the forum keep promoting the old traditional scout program, and then follow with ideals and activities that counter traditional scouting. Our district MB Fair started 25 years ago as a way of providing scouts an opportunity to earn hard to earn MBs like oceanography and veterinary medicine. In the beginning, there wasnt more than a dozen badges offered. But the fair grew into the monster we see today because each year the adults planning the program try to one up each other by making the next year bigger and better. Bragging rights go to the planners who bring in the most scouts. Planners of our district fair are reaching out to scouts in other districts. The fair has developed into a day where scouts had to be in the building by 8:00 am and couldnt leave until 4:00pm. One room was used to hold those roudy scouts who disrupted a class. Adults roamed the halls trying to catch scouts not in a class during class time. Does this sound like Scouting? I talked to one scoutmaster who brought scouts in their Webelos uniforms. He just signed them up for his troop that week and was trying to give them a good start, he said. Sheesh! The BSA has Mission of developing men who make ethical decisions, is this program working toward that goal? If you look at the policy recommendations for a scout to sign up for a MB, the scout is supposed to seek a list from the scoutmaster, choose a counselor, contact that counselor, set up schedule of meetings with the counselor, fill out the MB card with all the information and then get the Scoutmasters signature before he even starts to work on the badge. Those proceedures are all very important opportunties to practice organization, communication and social etiquette. All important traits that young adults should practice for their future in society. All of this was skipped in our MB fair by getting the scout to sign up for all his badges weeks before the fair. The SM is not envolved at all and doesn't sign the car until the scout is finished the class, typically in one day. There are those here who talk about the bad example of scouters not following all the YP rules, yet it is OK to ignore these little guidelines to streamline a scout to faster rank advancement. Honestly I think in the big picture of the Mission of scouting, skipping the simple guidelines for signing up for a MB is a greater crime. And yet, just about every BSA summer camp requires the units to do just that. Its hard for me to define and Eagle mill. With adults who feel determined to raise the number of Eagles, Im not so sure that our whole program hasnt made the turn to being and Eagle mill. I personally think that sort of attitude feeds an Eagle Mill mentality and hurts the main program in general. We have a few troops in our district that brag that they will get your son his eagle by age 14 if the scout cooperates with their program. Interestingly those are the biggest units in the district, and yet have the weakest older scout programs. The adults of those units tend to lead our District Merit Badge Fair as well. I feel strongly that you will accurately measure the quality of a troop by the quality of the older scouts. I'm starting to also believe that you can measure the quality of the adults by measuring there priorities of the Eight Methods. A troop that needs outside MB programs to advance their scouts have poor quality program. I think the first challenge for any unit to try and not be an Eagle mill is to guide their scouts to follow the procedures for signing up for ALL their MBs. Even at summer camp. That alone will get the adults to focus a little more on developing skills of character instead of badge of stature. I promise that those units will see a dramatic difference in scouts confidence and social skills with other adults. And if that scout fails to earn his promised Eagle, well he still has those other skills to use the rest of his life. Sorry this went long. I promise that it started short and just went on and on. Hey have a great day all. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I've been in the program over 35 years and just found out I've never had a background check. Had to fill out a new app for recharter and I doubt it's made its way through the hoops yet.