Eagledad

No games or tricks here Dan, thats not my style. Apparently you feel the need to belittle folks whom you dont agree to discredit them. You know you can have discussions without being confrontational. For example, if your data is so good, why would confrontation be necessary? I guess we need a psychologist to explain that. Thats OK Dan, you go ahead and attack away, but send me your data on the small conclusive studies so I can research just how non-biased they are. But get ready, if you really know anything about this kind of research, then you also know that your conclusive conclusion is at a lot more risk than I am. Barry

>>Then it won't be hard to cite some evidence that shows this for two-parent families where both parents are the same-sex, from credible, non-biased sources, as aquaticeagle has asked, twice now

>>How so? Because the kids will grow up outside of a box and will learn that the world is not Pleasantville? I can pretty much guarantee you that alcoholic or drug-abusing parents and parents who die at an early age from lung cancer have a much greater impact on a childhood than a child being raised by two women or two men.

>>Taking away the rights of people that are out to do no harm to anyone else is discrimination whether it be about race, ethnicity or sexual preference

>>It's sad. Many people still think that being black is not something they want their kids to think is normal or beneficial for a healthy family environment.>Barry, generally only the agrarian monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) view homosexuality as a sin. Most of the other religions in the world are more tolerant of such naturally occurring human diversity

>>Not every religion has a problem with homosexuality, or sees it as an impediment to being morally straight.

It takes away the practice of learning responsibility and the process of follow thru. It is a convenience for the summer camp staff, which I can understand. But as a SM, I'm in it for the growth of my scouts. I would still use the blue cards and request the staff support my wishes. Barry

The problem is the program leader is not directing it to happen. If the SM pushed and and explained the value of the guys going it alone or at least as few adults possible, the adults would follow because their sons would gain from it. I kind feel from your comments that they don't care. It doesn't even sound like they are afraid of letting the scouts go it alone, they just want to use the Patrol to play. Until the adults change, you have found the limitations of your troop program. This is as good as it gets for all the scouts. The good thing is your persistence might have the effect of a slow trickle of water falling on the rock. Eventually the rock gives way. Barry

>>If you'll read what I've been posting here, you'll see that I've written several times that when a belief involves harming anyone it is not okay.

>>By excluding gays the BSA is telling the youth of America that it is not okay to be yourself and be true to your heart.

>> I'm hoping the SPL will have at least some meals with the adults as that is a great time to have a conversation about what's going on with the Troop, and what's coming up.

>>We envision the SPL camping and eating with the adults, which we hope will provide even more evidence that we are willing to treat the youth leaders as peers in running the Troop, if they will step up to the challenge.

Well Done Beveah. I must admit I cringed when I read "reshuffle". I didn't know how to respond and so I didn't respond at all. I also know that no matter how Brent does this, the situation will require a really dedicated set of adults working together on the same vision. While the methods and styles will change, the vision shouldn't. I can say that because I have been there and done that in so many different ways. I'm not bragging because it hurts to write that we did it wrong a lot more than we did it right. There are very few new ideas out there I haven't already experienced. I haven't seen any here. At this age of the boys and in Brent's situation, patrol dynamics is fragile and requires constant tilling. Not only until the boys gain enough experience wisdom for it to become second nature, but also until the adults learn enough to understand the nature of boys and of dynamics of patrol method. Have courage and don't be afraid, but don't get cocky either. Only humility will keep the troop going in the direction of boy run. That is also biblical. You did a good job on the reply. Barry

>>I will be working through upcoming training to include some simple but basic instructions on phone etiquette. This will fit in with the ideas that we are working our phone trees more and the PLs will be expected to communicate more effectively with their patrol members.

I tried to do them as soon as possible. I did them before, after and during meetings. I once did one at a soccer practice for a scout who was leaving town for a couple weeks. I did a couple while hiking in Philmont and did an Eagle SM Conference while walking during a 12 hour overnight Walk To Man Kind Cancer fund raiser. Ive done them in the Scouts house and in mine. Done a few in cars and once did one over the phone for a scout who wasnt even in my Troop. For me however, just having the opportunity to just sit and talk with a scout could sometimes be a SM Conference. A long drive to a camp can lead to many interesting discussions. The CC once told me that the scout for which they had just completed a BOR couldnt really point out the specific SM Conference for his rank because we always talked. I guess you can set specific times and locations, but you may risk missing out on some great conferences. Great memories. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Hi Brent Well, here is how we did it and it worked fine. We told the existing patrols that we were starting a NSP and they would be merged into the existing patrols after summer camp or about 6 months. Since we got so many new scouts, we needed a new patrol. This is a great opportunity for a scout of any age to start a new patrol. The only request we put on them is that they build a balanced patrol, meaning spread the ages. That wont be a huge problem for you since your guys are about the same age. Our Troop grew from 12 to 90 in about six years, so we use that method several times and I don't recall any real problems. It doesnt disrupt the existing patrols much and it gives a scout looking for change an opportunity. But let me say my concern here is that want to do this as soon as the new scouts join. I written before that patrol dynamics can be disrupted significantly when more than two new scouts are added to a patrol. The reason is because the new scouts are so undisciplined and have so little experience in a troop program, they require a lot of attention. If you go with your plan, you will be creating three brand new patrols instead of just the one NSP that will need a lot of attention. That makes it very hard to be boy run. By keeping them in a new Scout patrol for a few months getting them up to speed, you reduce the risk of a few months of frustration for the majority of the scouts. I think you would be better off electing the SPL and recruiting two Troop Guides to work with the new scouts for the next few months. Then merge the new scouts into the patrols in about six months before the next elections. That way the two existing patrols don't feel like they are starting all over as new patrols. They feel like they still have control over the situation. What ever you do, it is a good problem getting that many new scouts. Good Job. Barry

>>A Scout handbook is the Scout's record and is by no means official! The BOR signs off on the advancement form. That is official.

I'm trying to fugure out how a Scout could get a BOR without his book in our troop since the board uses the book to as some of the question about his experience. If he doesn't bring the book, how does the BOR sign off in the book? Also, if the idea of the BOR is to verify that the scout has completed everything, how do they do they do that without a book? Oh I guess some adult could have keep track on the side, but how do we know that imformation is correct. Required or not, seems like you got to have a book to do the BOR correctly. Barry

We had a 17 year old Scout, whose family transferred from Colorado, join our troop. He was a great kid and a fine scout and he was only one MB away from Eagle. When he finished the MB, he brought all his stuff and handed to me and asked me to tell him when to be at the EBOR. I told him that was his responsibility and he was actually supposed to tell me the date and time of his EBOR. I then gave him the number to the District EBOR Chairman. I could tell he was frustrated and a week later he showed up with his dad. His dad very politely expressed that they didnt know what to do. The troop in Colorado did everything from keeping all the MB Cards, the scouts books, found and assigned Eagle Projects, filled out the Eagle packet and set up the EBOR. I explained to dad that our scouts keep all their paperwork and book records and they have to complete the Eagle packet and set up the EBORs. We also keep records on the computers, but that is not how the scouts present their records. That was one of the ways we encourage responsibility and self reliance. We will advise of course if we are asked, but the scouts do the foot work. His dad thanked me and they got it done. He later admitted that it was kind of hard finishing up the Eagle Packet, but there was a lot of satisfaction in it. At some point we have to start treating boys like men, I think requiring the scout to keep his records and book up to date is a good start. I was lost at why the Colorado troop took away the Scouts books. Besides keeping records, those books are more importantly their skills hand books for survival. We encouraged our scouts to always have their books nearby just for that reason. If they forget a skill, they only need to grab their book to refresh their memory. They learned quickly not to ask any question without first checking their book. Thats why even the uniform policy should be fairly clear. Again its also more practice in self reliance. Scouts do loose books, I know because I had a dozen at my house when I retired as a SM. But they always figure out their records. Typically they only loose the book once. I think being asked to recite the Scout Law and Oath now and then just reminds the scout how much he reflects on them. I also think if the scouts typically struggle with reciting them, then the adults arent encouraging enough reflection of the law and oath. The Law and Oath should be standards the scouts are trying meet. What are the adults standards if they arent using the law and oath? Oh, that Eagle I talked about, he was given a medal from our city for resuscitating the life of baby who drowned in a swimming pool. I'm honored to have been his SM just for a few short months. Good Discussion. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

We are also thinking of getting out of the 401K. We cancelled our 30th anniversary trip to Hawaii. We are not going to buy a new car as planned. I know of several small businessfolks who are not going to do any hiring. Barry

Only liberals use the word utopia. Conservative use the words like personal freedom. Barry

The way the time problem worked its way out for us was making sure the meeting program is full. If they start late, the end late. Parents don't like waiting very long and they let their sons know. They in turn complain to the PL who brings up the subject at PLC. Just like in real life outside the troop, folks want to be on time. Make sure you ask the SPL why they started late and what he could do to change that. He should be asking the very same questions at the Post PLC meeting. Oh, and when the Post meeting gets late, that has even more affect. My SPL starting taking pride in starting on time. As for uniforms, that is more difficult because boys don't buy into adult excusses like wearing a uniform gives you more pride or makes you a better boy scout. A boy needs to feel in his heart the uniform has value. At your next PLC meeting, read the uniform requirements from the Scout Handbook. Then ask the questions like, if a scout doesn't wear his uniform, is he doing right or doing wrong. Is it OK to do some things wrong and other things right? Who gets to pick what guidelines we get to break? What happens when everyone wants to do things their own way? You know, stuff like that. The important thing here is the scouts have to want to wear the uniform, not feel forced. By the way, I alway use the uniform as a flag that something is wrong when a scout changes a habit. Strangely, I found that 9 out of 10 times when I asked a scout if something was wrong or if they had a bad day, they did. You will always struggle with the uniform in a troop where the boys aren't forced by the adults because they have different attitudes about it at different stages. New scouts and older scouts don't have much problem. 13 to 15 year old boys are trying to find themselves. A good PLC can maintain a more consistant policy Barry

>>In the previous generation of Wood Badge, one of the things that we learned was that whenever there is any change in the membership of a group -- gain one or lose one -- it's a new group.

>>But that's where the debate begins.

>>What is the researcher spending the money on? Is he just shredding the money and burning it in a beaker?