Eagledad

Really Sixe of troop doesn't have as much to do with it as one would think. The transition to boy run toes time because everyone is learning, especially the adults. Boy run is a lot harder for adults than adult run because adults work with each scout individually instead the group as a whole. It's a lot easier to tell the whole troop to wear the full uniform than mentoring each scout individually the value of making the right decision based on expectations and guidelines. Truth is that developing the skills to mentor scouts takes a lot of practice and humility. Humility leads to wisdom. It takes years. Also scout maturity develops only as fast as the adults give the them the freedom to make mistakes and learn from the mistakes. Letting scouts go on their own and then being there to guide their growth is a skill that takes time to develop. Barry

>>Gunny: 5 year transition?? Is it really gonna take that long Scouters??

We had two simple ideas of how to become more boy run; 1. Get the scouts so that if the adults didn't show up, the troop would run the same. 2. If there was something in the program we didn't trust the scouts to do without the adults, train them. Teach them, trust them, let them go. Human nature is to learn from the freedom of experience. The problem you and most of us face is our scouts freedom is limited by the adult fears. That means the adults have to learn more faster than the scouts so that we get out of the way. We have to learn how to let them go! Exmple: You say the adults don't trust the SPL to run the PLC meeting. So let's train him to ease your fears. Teach him to use a simple meeting agenda at every meeting. Something like: 1. Open meeting with last meeting minutes. 2. PL reports 3. Old business 4. New business 5. SM closing And keep it very simple to get the habits developed. Add more to the meeting by training the SPL as he gets more confident. Small step. Get the other adults out, or at least out of direct vision of the SPL. They intimidate the SPL and they are tempted to jump in. Only the SM speaks if an adult must speak and that is by permission of the SPL. Remember, the goals is acting without the adults. The SPL should be able to run a meeting from his agenda without any adults by his forth month. Of course there is a lot to running smooth meetings, but that requires A LOT of small steps over the years as the scouts mature. Evauate the program like this. If you don't trust the scouts with freedom without adults in anything the do, tran them. It's your fear that holds them back, not theirs. Fix your problem. It's takes lots of little steps, but training the scouts to be independent takes time for both the adults and scouts to develop. Once the adults learn how to recognize where training is needed and develop teaching and letting, your boy run growth will go faster than the adults can keep up. Good luck and get ready, a true boy run program is a lot of fun for everyone. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

If by chance you take a wrong turn and end up near Oklahoma City, visit the Cowboy Hall of Fame. Then give me a call, I would enjoy taking you and Mrs CambridgeSkip out to dinner. Barry

>>I beleive First Class First year is a good goal

>>That organization stole my soul when I was a kid and planted it in the wilderness. I was too young to resist their clever sales pitch built around hiking and camping trips. And their system of rewarding accomplishments with higher ranks and colorful merit badges meant, in effect, there was always one more goal to reach, one more mountain to climb"........

>>I used a small trick that helped. If I was talking to my son, I called him by his name. If I was talking to the role, I called him SPL. He would do the same, leading to some fun exchanges.

I hate MBUs, but if the district was going to insist on doing them, here is what I proposed for our MBU if I were to run it: 1.Run a District MB counselor training and MBU information day one month before the MBU. 2.MBU is two consecutive Saturdays, 1 hour 30 minute classes. 3.Troops would receive the MBC approved list to give their scouts two weeks before the first Saturday. 4.Scouts would arrive between 7:00 to 9:00 pm Friday before the first Saturday to meet counselor, sign up for class, and fill out blank MB Card. 5.Scouts will not be permitted to attend class without a filled out MB Card signed by Scoutmaster. 6.There is no promise of completion of requirements by the end of course. My plan was turned down, so I didnt accept leading it. Our MBU was a total nightmare. Ignoring the normal steps scouts are supposed to perform when signing up for a MB like calling and filling out paperwork, the scouts were also required to stay at MBU from 8 am until 5 pm even if they only wanted to take one class. They were required to buy lunch, even if they only signed up for one class. This made for a lot of behavior issues with scouts who didnt want to stay all day and we must have had 20 adult volunteers walking the halls. School wasn't this strict. Add the hours and hours of work trying to get boys signed up two weeks before and collecting dues, it was a huge mess. I wanted to change it completely to where the scouts do the work to find the counselor, fill out the required paper and show up only for the classes they wanted to attend. And the district would get an updated counselor list each year at the MB Counselor training. Barry

After reading your last post Scoutfish, I think I have a better understanding of your question. You are looking at your FCFY schedule as a BSA document for getting the best performance from your scouts. I dont think there is a BSA offical or BSA suggested FYFC schedule. I could be wrong, but I think the one you are trying to follow is likely a Troop FCFY schedule, which is OK. Your troop has likely developed the schedule for their own annual program and camping schedule. I dont know that we really can answer your question for your troop program, we can only say how we do it in our own troop. There are some really good replies to your question. If you could ignore for a moment the schedule part of your question, read and try to understand more the philosophical reasoning folks are giving you about the advancement part of the program and how it fits in the whole of the program. I do understand that you have to look at the program from the face presentation of it because you dont have enough experience to look at it from the big picture. You are kind of at the mercy of your troop program. But with that in mind, you have to consider how to ask questions on this forum so that you dont find yourself more confused or conflicted with your program. You may not have enough experience to take advice from the forum and merge it with your troop. The suggestions of just sitting back and observing your troop for a while is sound wisdom. Try to see how the some of the parts work together for the whole of the scouts adventure. Get a feel for the difference between how getting assigned a Position of Responsibility is different from the experience of real leadership. See if you can understand where learning a few knots might develop some character. And amongst all that, are the scouts enjoying their experience. I mean are they really enjoying scouting. Do the boys go home thinking I like myself when Im in the Troop? You see, FCFY is only a suggestion from National and I think the schedule your scouts are following is how your Troop is using that suggestion. Asking a question on this forum about FCFY may likely is not getting the you the right answer you need because our program doesnt follow the suggestion they way yours does. The best you get (and its pretty good stuff) is philosophical foundations of how FCFY fits in our complicated programs using the Eight Methods of Scouting. Have you read the Eight Methods of Scouting? They are the principles to reaching the Three Aims of Scouting. In my program, the adults are responsible for the three Aims, and the Scouts are responsible for the Eight Methods. Thats how my program works, but its not how everyones works. Keep asking the questions so that you can learn, just be leery that our replies may not fit well in your program. Give yourself some time to observe and see what this scouting stuff is all about. And for goodness sake, have fun. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Scoutfish, we did answer you, sure you can do the the scedule at a different pace. You can do what ever you want. Most folks basically responded in their own words to guide each scout individually at their own pace and own schedule. Im still wondering, is the FCFY schedule a BSA thing, a troop? I don't remember one. Our these guys in a NSP? Oh Eagle92, great post on the history of FCFY. Barry

I don't remember a first class schedule, is that a troop thing? Like Gwd, first class in our troop is recognition of having the skills and confidence to survive in the woods. There was no timeline or schedule for us, but we did push to have a program that wouldn't get in the way of the most aggressive scout. It's rare that two boys would be so alike that they would individually complete all the 1st class requirements in the same order. We encouraged our scouts to practice the traits of setting a goal to complete each requirement, make a plan to complete the requirements and then initiate then plan. Scouts who learned and followed those traits tended to earn Eagle because they learned a process of accomplishing long range goals one little step at a time. What I'm saying is use the rank requirements to teach some basic life skills. let the scouts set the schedule.

We suggest packs recruit all their adult positions by May and complete their annual pack agenda in June. We do a District Cub Scout recruiting clinic late July. Barry

I think we agree with you DL, but it's a matter of resources. Most packs don't have enough adults to proved choices of programs to the boys. Most feel lucky to find enough adults to provide a basic program. The BSA looses more than 50 percent of Webelos when they cross over to the troops. The number one cause for those loses is adult leader burnout, which results in a boring Webelos program. If we can get more adults interested in scouting to provide a refreshed program, we would change those numbers a lot. I say go for it DL and make it work. You have nothing to loose. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Now, there are compassionate reasons for both, eh?

>>You may be too far down this trail for this to be a practical suggestion, but maybe it goes in the Lessons Learned file.

We asked an adult to leave almost exactly the way Beaverha suggested. Our CO didn't care to participate, but they supported what ever we decided on the matter. I highly recommend a trusted District representative be there with you. In our case we had a good UC, but that is rare. Check you District Unit Commish if you don't have a good UC. These are tough decisions for volunteers because we dont like conflict. But as Beaverha implied, this is what you need to do so that your program gets back to normal and so that you dont loose a good SM. barry

We do a pancake breakfast fishing morning. The folks who aren't that interested in fishing enjoy pancakes, bacon, juice and coffee. If you need help there, get a few adults from a nearby troop to help do the cooking. Every year we watch boys fish for their first. Even better, we get to watch boys fish for their first time with their parents. Let me know if you need a few bucks donated. Barry

>>I'm very much in favor of adults limiting themselves to the same budget guidelines and same equipment constraints as the rest of the troop. That doesn't mean that the adults can't eat well, though.

Our troop request the patrols do at least two patrol campouts a year. They could do more if they wanted. I think the backpacking theme is really cool. Barry

Sadly Eamonn, we arent allowed to express our feelings anymore on these things for fear of being judged politically out of step. I remember when I was 16 and listening to rock and roll on the radio in my car. Between songs, the DJ came on a poured out soul from finding out about the boy who had been stabbed to death in a local Oklahoma City High School. Most folks were hurt or saddened by the event. It wasnt a common event and the city was in shock. Yes, it did happen at a basically black school, but it still was a shock that nobody could explain. Believe it or not, I havent been keeping track of the Trayvon Martin tragedy. Ive been pretty busy and stayed away from the news. Oh I hear few tidbits here and there because news is in everything, even the scouting forum. But the tidbits are more about how a couple is in fear of their life from some famous black person (I dont remember who) tweeting to get revenge at their address or how both the democrats and republicans are politizing the news to their advantage. Ive never tweeted in my life, so I dont really understand that news and as far a demos and repubs in D.C., Im taking a break from that news. I havent even read your thread until this morning and the first thing I read is Lisabobs account of the tragedy. I havent heard much, but I didnt hear it her way, so my first response is Of course she sees it that way, she is a liberal. I admit that I was ashamed of myself once I thought that and regretted even getting into the thread. My apologies Lisabob. As bad as I feel about the tragedy, Im angrier at my response. I sure I didnt need to start my day that way.. I was having a discussion with my mom last night and we somehow got on to how politics has so permeated our culture that nobody is safe to think out loud anymore because somebody will be offended, even if what we said was just grieving out loud. Politics has become such a part of our culture that even third graders are taught in school about different acceptable lifestyles. Our kids have become pawns for long term poltical goals. I confessed to mom that my grandkids will never know the innocence of growing up that I was fortunate to experience. My mother didnt know how to respond. So I wonder, can we not have a discussion of a tragedy without somehow taking sides like the stabbing that shook Oklahoma City when I was 16? You know I dont think we can. I read your first post on this subject Eamonn and I see your anguish. I think we all agree, I think. Sadly, the general mood of the county doesnt allow us to express ourselves right now. The ambitious political agendas have polluted our souls and there isnt enough room in us to mourn. I've had enough of this subject. Barry

>>So if we use the statistics for flyin' airplanes, it's us old folks we should be worried about, eh? The 16 year olds do fine.

Oh boy, the memories of having been there and done that. The situation you have is that you no longer have the troop that you had before the new scouts arrived. You have a whole new program and you need to look at it that way. You have six months to get your new guys up to speed. Your patrols cant handle all the new scouts because that demands all the patrols time. Your older scouts, I know they aren't much older, but they will burn out fast. Here is what we did the second time this happened, learning from the first time failure. We divided up the new scouts into three small patrols and attached two troop guides to them. We wanted two just in case one got sick or something. We then assigned another scout to be the ASPL in charge of working with the Troop Guides. His jobs were to work with the SM in developing training and activities schedule for the troop guides. And to fill in as a troop guide if needed. Turned out to be a great job actually. OK, got all that so far? THEN we assigned a Patrol to each NS Patrol to be the big brother patrol for the new scouts. In this way, we could still have each existing patrol camp away from the other existing patrols, but still have the a new scout patrol camp next to them to watch and learn from their big brother patrol members. Does that make sense. The NS Patrol stood in formation next to their Big Brother patrol at meetings, and stayed near them with all the activities so that they had older scout mentors to learn from, but it still gave the older scouts enough room to breath. Now, as you can see, everything about this approach is trying to keep the boy run concept working while still managing the huge influx of green horns. HOWEVER, this is still a lot of work for the adults. They need to watch and take up slack where the other scouts are burning out. New scouts are the most undisciplined boys in scouting. They are like herding cats and young boys without the experience of being parents need some interference. I say this with caution because the adults need to stand back as much as possible. But your situation risk loosing new scouts from the lack of fun and older scouts from the burnout. We used the big brother and NS Patrol method for six months, them we merged the new scouts into the patrols. It takes about six months for new scouts to learn the program. If you still have the scout after six months, you will have them for a few years. Dont keep them in new scout patrols longer than six months. You and your PLC might need to consider rebuilding the patrols to mix everyone evenly. Normally I dont like rebuilding patrols, but this is the one instance I think it acceptable. ALSO, work with the new parents. Be up front with the challenges and ask them to help you where ever you can. If they understand the chaellenges, then they will be more understanding of the chaos they see. The adults must appear that they have a plan. The PLC needs to see the adults working as a team with the PLC to help this work. Trust me, after a couple meeting with the new scouts, they will be open to team work with adults. But, keep the scouts incharge. Don't let the adults walk over them because the scouts will let it happen. Does this help? Does it make sense? It did work for us when our troop of 20 scouts received 28 new scouts. You must have a good program to draw that kind of new class. Get past summer camp and its down hill from there. Barry

This is going to be a difficult change for you and its normal for most new adult troop leaders. The parent side of us hates the watching one in the group being left behind. As we raise our kids, we parents take up the slack of our kids weaknesses so that we dont suffer our childrens struggles. We just hate to see our kids hurt. If you really want to understand what Im talking about, consider that the one scout you are talking about is your son. What would you be inclined to do with the rest of the group so that your son isnt left outside the group? Boys learning from their experiences is the foundation of scouting. It is what make scouting so powerful, if the adults are willing. As I like to say, scouting is real life in a boys size. The troop is one of the few places left in our society today where our sons can learn from hard lessons and have fun in the experience. Real life isnt going to be so kind. But you will have to be willing to let them struggle. Easier said than done. LOL What we know in our heart but are afraid to confront is that struggle, stress and failure are where we humans learn the most and the fastest. Success strangely may feel good, but it doesnt force us to change our habits or behavior like failure, stress or struggles. The adventure of the outdoors and the the experience of leadership provide the average boy with the opportunites of growth. In your situation, the scout left behind either will be intimidated by the group leaving him behind and feel motivated to catch up, or he might be confident himself that he has plenty of time to catch up. Either of those attitudes are healthy. Where the mentor (you) come in is guiding the scout when he is confused and not sure how to handle his struggles, if he has one. You guide him to look at small steps that lead him toward bigger rewards. You want to guide him to learn habits of maturity. That is the growth you are looking for. To be a good scout leader, you need to learn how to not take each scouts failures personally. Dont get upset with Their failures, just get ready to mentor them if they come to you. This is what we do. If we do it well, then our scouts will grow to be mature moral decision makers who will lead good lives as husbands, fathers and community leaders. They will learn that serving others willingly is their greatest reward. They will learn how to confront hard work successfully and how to grow from failures. However, for you to be a good scout leader, you will have to humble yourself that you need to learn more and faster than the scouts just to keep up with them. Your adventure is just beginin. By the way, this is why I started encouraging Webelos Den leaders to award their scouts their activities pins at each Den Meeting. Then I would recognize them at the Pack Meetings in front of everyone by presenting them their cards. The boys get used to individual instant recognition and the Pack still gets to see their accomplishments at the Pack meetings. Worked very well. Barry

I brought a box of Tootsie Pops suckers on each campout and sat it in the assembly area. The SPL explained to the scouts that they could have as many as they wanted so long as they only took one at a time and a wrapper was never found on the ground. The box only stayed out about 30 minutes the first few campouts. Barry

We do what Boomer Scout suggest, payment on time and participation. And usually, someone has to bail for some reason or another. Hasn't failed yet, but I'm sure we will be in your shoes one day. Barry