Eagledad

Not always. We had a family with a son in two different troops. Mom was very active on the committees of both troops, so she was always comparing. Once she told me that is was amazing to watch how our PLC started the meetings on time every time with zero adult help. In fact, the SPL sometimes complains that we adults are always late. She said the meetings in her other son's troop (largest troop in the district) always starts 20 to 30 minutes late because it takes that long for adults to get the scouts herded together and settled down. Really as boy run troops mature, they become less chaotic because the youth leaders have learned how to work as a team and become pretty efficient. You hear less yelling than in adult run troops because they help each other instead of letting one scout deal with situations. But it takes a few years to grow to that place. Barry

Our troop does this very thing at a troop meeting. You don't need to wait for a camp out. We also do a Thanksgiving feast on the November camp out. The troop cooks a couple turkeys and the patrols bring the sides aan desserts. You can see in everyone's faces that there is something special about a whole troop sitting together eating a meal near a fire. We go strait into songs and skits. Then after that, the scouts play night capture the flag. I have not been on the last few November camp outs, but that was a tradition the scouts developed over years. I hope they still do it. Barry

The problem with this theory is when the scouts don't or can't see doing anything different and not growing. Not just in eating, but patrols can develop habits that retard their growth. Remember, boys don't have the life experience of adults, so many times they just don't know that they can broaden their experience. Hey, adults who have never camped have the same problem, they just don't know what they don't know. There comes a time when you have to balance growth over the time it takes to reach that growth and maturity. That is why we quit using same age patrols. Working side by side, younger scouts matured a lot faster (a lot faster) with experienced patrol mates than the scouts who had the same limited experience they had. That makes sense doesn't it? I'm not telling to use mixed age patrols, I don't think anyone here wants to start a long boring commerical chest beating thread on whose style is better. I'm just illustrating that there are limits to scouts growing from their experiences. That is why scoutmasters are part of the program. They are sometimes the spark required for a dying fire. Remember Blws, 300 ft. means a loooonnnggg waaaays from the adults and other patrols. So helping scouts mature naturally sometimes requires some creativity. Barry

Interesting comment. Only two requirements and that is considered adult stuff. Scouts can prepare anything they want, it just has to be something more than eating out of a cold can. Now I must say the two requirements came about over time when we had some issues with food quality and healthy eating. And, the PLC created the requirements at the request of the SM asking for some help in that area. I really don't think that adults going wild. As for Role modeling preparing food and everything that goes with that, (LOL) the adult campsite is 300 ft. away from the patrols and usually there are trees and such between the camp sites. Once in a while we might display a cooking technique in the middle of the camp so the scouts can see like cooking turkey in a pit of reflective oven. But that's not really the same thing. Also remember out patrols are mixed age patrols. Usually the younger scouts learn pretty quickly from their own patrol members. Now if you are asking how to help the scouts develop some new habits or skills, there are a lot of ways to get creative like having a cooking theme month where each troop meeting teaches and practices a specific part of cooking. Lot of ideas on the forum on how to do that. Cooking competitions are very popular and a lot of fun. REMEMBER, Usually the SM is the judge. Be creative in how you bring patrols up to speed on any skill. Adult leaders don't need to be part of the mix, but they can, especially the ones who are good cooks. Invite moms, chefs or cooks from other troops. So many tricks to cooking great food outdoors. I'm with stosh, Dutch oven cooking is some of my faviorite and it is very easy because basically you can dump food in it and leave it alone for a specific amount of time. Our scouts do Dutch oven roast all the time. Super easy and very hard to mess up. We are a back packing troop, but the patrols can check out a dutch oven anytime the need. Dutch oven chicken is soooo good. HEY, there you go for one night of the cooking theme. Barry

There were only two requirements I ask from the scouts' on preparing meals: the meals needed to be nutritional, and should be prepared (Prepared meaning that it doesn’t come straight out of a package like pop tarts or cereal). I preferred all meals be cooked depending on the camp out, but gave them the option for lunch. I want scouts to learn and grow from all their experiences, especially preparing and cooking good tasting food. My wife was amazed at the meals I could prepare when we first got married and just about all them were from my boy scouting experiences. I also agree that Sunday shouldn’t be a hurry up break camp day because it wrecks the cooking experience. I remember our Webelos being pulled from their tents on one Troop visit at 7:00 morning. The SM handed them a poptart and told them to eat and break camp at the same time. He wanted to get all the gear stowed back at the church storage before the first Sunday service. I asked him, why can't you wait until after church services are over. He said he never thought of that. Our Troop rarely starts breaking camp before lunch. Barry

These discussions seem to go off on a trail of their own. Suggesting a peanut butter sandwiches all weekend to steaks and Dutch oven French toast kind leaves one scratching their head. What? When we are dealing with groups that are totally inexperienced with outdoor living, getting up to speed takes small steps. I have no trouble with the SM giving the scouts a simple menu for their first campout. It is a starting place that will guide them of foods they can take camping as well as the experience of aquiring the food within a given budget. The problem I see is giving the scouts a menu their 2nd and 3rd campout and not allowing them to be creative and make decisions. That is why the scouts are bored. It has been said many times here that adults need to learn and grow faster from the scouting experiences than the scouts or they will become a barrier to scout growth. Add that most of the restrictions that adults throw at the scouts are motivated by adults fears. The number one adult problem in most troops is letting fear not allow them to learn and grow faster than the scouts. And I get it, being a boy run leader isn't as easy as we seem to paint it here on the forum. Eating simple healthy meals on camp outs can be a challenging task for new adults. The solution is training themselves out of the fear. I've seen adults dictate in one way or another the menu selection of the scouts because they are afraid the scouts will basically starve. So the adults need to teach the scouts what kinds of foods are healthy and the different meals that can be made from those healthy foods. There are very simple menus that boys enjoy and are healthy. It may not be steak and potatoes, but it can be better than peanut butter sandwiches all weekend long. Or not. But the point is for the adults to grow past their fears by learning and teaching so that the scouts are making the choices, not the adults. If scouts are to grow, the adults need to grow as well. At the point the adults quit growing, the troop program stops as well. That is really what the SM giving the scouts menus on their 2nd and 3rd campout is representing. The scouts should be capable of making some choices for their meals by the 2nd camp out. That is a simple lesson for boy run adult leaders in training. Barry

With young scouts, multiply the noise level and time awake by the number of scouts in the tent. Barry

It will be exciting to watch. Let us know how it goes. Barry

Well I disagree with your first sentence. You will just have to take my word on it. I have worked with a lot of troops changing to boy run and the older scouts were the stumbling block. Taking care of the members of your patrols is a cultural ideal. It is a hard concept for older scouts who are used to being in the background of adults being the servants. Older scouts will teach and to some degree lead, but taking on the boy run code of a servant lifestyle is so different from their experience that it isn't scouting to them. It actually looks like a lot of work to them. It's not just programs going to boy run, scouts 14 are adults; adults are creatures of familiarity and resist change. It's how nature works. We are a result of preteen lifestyle and it is very hard to change. It's kind of funny to see, the older scouts sit back and watch the program as if it were a movie. This is the same thing Venturing Crew leaders complain about as well. Scouts from troops where the scouts were more in the background of adults wait for the Venturing program to come them. That is why girls tend to be the ones who jump in and push the program forward. They haven't been trained to follow. However, I'm willing to be humbled and see it work. Barry

Warning Alert! I have found that just about in every case of a SM taking over and changing the program that the older scouts (14 and older) are resistant to change. It doesn't matter what the change is, they just don't like change. Of course one should never say never, but even with this knowledge, new SMs struggle to get the older scouts engaged. "Be prepared" to make the culture change with the younger scouts and letting the older scouts hang back with enough older program so that they hang around. They might not buy into the new program, but they can help you in some areas. Likely your culture change will have to come with the younger scouts. Barry

When you look through history NJ where the poor were treated unfairly, you will find an abuse in power and interpretation of the moral code. You have heard me say many times that when their is no single source of moral code, moral code because what the guy with the biggest stick says it is. Stosh is exactly right, moral code is supposed to be used by the community to protect the weak and innocent. That is the motivation behind not having gay role models. Now it is true the pendulum can swing too far in both directions, but how do you know without a non-changing moral source. Rationally I can explain why religion fails when it does because I have a guideline or doctrine. But those without such a guideline tend to rely on emotions until experience changes their opinion. And even then it is still and emotional choice. A deity, as you say is neither emotional or changing and is required to anchor morality. Barry Barry

Our SPLs will tell you they never worked so hard in their life. For me, SPL is basically SM in training. That means motivating the scouts to run the troop. Along with that is making sure all the paper work is done and all the details are considered. Our SPL goes to all the troop leader meetings at summer camp and is responsible for representing the troop in an official capacity. They work so hard that the troop pays for their camp fees. But the Scouts consider it such and honor that they strategize months, sometimes years a head to run and get elected for SPL during the summer. After six months in the position, they are ready for a break. But several of them run again six months later saying the first six months was just training. I invite all of them to camp with the adults since they are handling adult level responsibilities and you can see in their face that they consider the offer a great complement, but none of them took me up on the offer. Personally I'm glad, scouts need to hang with the buddies as long as they can. I tried to build the program so that every scout was being challenge at their maturity. By the time they get to SPL, they are pretty mature, so it takes a lot to keep them challenged. Oh, I agree with Quazse, wonderful post MattR. Barry

I was just curious how your troop does it since you say the NSP scouts get up to speed faster with troop's organization. The Patrol Leaders are the first line of working with new scouts in our troop, Not a big thing, just curious. Barry

Sometimes the chorus grows quieter because some members are driven off by the attack and harsh tone from other members. I very much believe this was cause of loosing some many member in the last couple years. I personally don't believe a member should need thick skin to participate. Many folks here are not only brand new to the forum, they are brand new to scouting. When an inexperienced leader ask for help with a question that sets them up to be attacked, then its gone too far. I have seen that occur a lot on this forum. I get the feeling that the mods are watching that a lot closer and they have my support. I want the new Bear Den leader to feel safe asking ANY question in this forum. Barry

Just out of curiosity, who gets them up to speed with the troop's organization and how do they do that? Barry

I have a lot of experience over a lot of years all around the subject of new scouts, new scout patrols, and how to work these young men into the troop. Let me first say if you were to ask me if keeping a new scout with his friends was the method, I would say yep, NSP all the way. But experience has changed me. Boys don’t gravitate toward boys their age, they gravitate toward others with common interest. The only reason we think of gravitating with the den is because that has been their environment for three years or so. OK, that is fair. But lets use the example of eight Webelos going to their first troop meeting to be put in a patrol. The SM stands the Webelos in front of the troop of 50 strangers and says: “you can pick any patrol you want, or you can start your own patrolâ€. Do those scouts really have a choice? Not really, but it still might be the best choice. Now lets consider that three of the Webelos are bullies and the other five have been biting at the bullet to get away from the bullies. The five scouts are bit shy and they are very afraid of saying anything that would upset the bullies. They look at the 50 strangers they never met of which they know nothing about, then they look at the three bullies. Do they have a choice? Rock and hard place? There is likely at least one Webelos in just about every den that does not want to be with the whole den. That is my experience and opinion of boys gravitating. We’ve tried several different patrol styles and NSP styles. I’m pretty sure I can relate to just about everyone here and their chosen method. From our experience, the best method for getting the new scouts into the troop with the least resistance and happiest scouts was when we assigned scouts to a patrol. We don’t typically do that, but we were trying to find a process that worked better than what had done in previous years. And let me just say, it is the greatest hassle on the PLC because they have to identify with each scout personally to find the right fit. It is the hardest route for the troop by far. BUT once the scouts were in their patrols, everyone one was happy including the Patrol leaders. We found that most new scouts aren’t that big on being with all their den mates, most have one or two friends they are especially close with and that was all they needed. Really, we never had a single new scout complain that they wanted to be with other friends. That is not how we do it every year because circumstances change every year. If we have more new scouts than 2 per patrol, we usually do a NSP with the expectation that the new scouts will be assimilated into the patrols after summer camp. When we get a lot of new scouts, we might do buddy patrols with the NSP so the buddy patrol can help with the Troop Guide. That works ok, but it challenges the 300 ft separation rule. I just don’t like getting that many new scouts, but I guess that is a good problem. Also, we never let the new scouts be Patrol Leaders like the BSA model suggest. Our Patrol Leaders work hard and have a lot of responsibility, so the experience doesn’t do anything new scouts who really just want to do the outdoor adventure stuff. I’m all about role models, so let the TGs be role models. We always ask for volunteers to be TGs and they are usually Life or Eagle 16 or older scouts. Folks here have heard me say before that I have never seen a good 14 or younger TG, nor have I ever seen 15 or older bad one. Maturity is everything with TGs. Now saying all that, I really believe a troop has to search and find what works for them. We have great experiences here and can explain why some work for us and why some don’t. But I looking back, every new class of scouts was a little different and required some changes to make it work well. The BSA looses more scouts in the first year troop age than any other age. That is why they started the NSP/TG program. But, statistic show that even after 20, the rate is about the same. What that means is the problem isn’t as much about the patrol experience as it is about going from an adult guided environment (parents) to a boy guided environment where the boys are expected to not only make their own decisions, but live with them. I wanted to fix the crossover and first year losses problem, so I interviewed a lot of scouts and their parents to find out why their leaving and how to fix it. The problem is simple, but the solution of getting scouts comfortable with the idea that the 13 year old patrol leader was now going to basically feed and protect them in the dark woods where creatures lurk. That is the best way I can say it. To keep those boys, it’s not as much about their patrol as it is easing them into a change of life philosophy. They are boys anymore, they are expected to behave and think like men. That is A LOT on a 10 year old boy, and that is why more boys quit scouting that year than any other year. Barry

This is a good post. We went through a few years where our scouts were the OA lodge chiefs and many of the officers. They put in a ton of time in those positions and I certainly gave them a credit as well as praise. The lodge adviser made sure to let me know that there was a reason that our scouts kept getting selected for officers and chief. But you are right in pointing out the outside responsibilities of these scouts. They should be credited for their leadership in the community, especially when the community recognizes them. I got a call from a parent telling me that 5 of the scouts in our troop were selected as leaders by the high school student body. I had never heard of this honor before, so she told me that each year the students vote for the 6 top leaders of the school. Five came from our troop and she wanted me to know. The sixth was a girl. I don't know what 1800 students saw in those boys, but it certainly should be in consideration when we are discussing leadership honors in the unit. Ya know not one of those scouts said anything. When I congratulated them for the honor, they were very humble and just said thank you. Man we had some great kids in our troop. Barry

My experience is that Troop guides and instructors just aren't near enough. Young scouts are at an age where they learn best by watching, not listening. While it is not always possible, the best environment for growth is being immersed with experienced peers. As I said, that situation is not always possible, but it helps to understand the reasoning. Im sorry to hear about your situation. Barry

I know I will get hammered as old fashion preaching out-dated traditional styles of scouting, but this is the main argument against same age patrols. Since there are fewer older scouts to teach the inexperienced scouts, they are left with adults doing the teaching so the scouts to grow and mature. It makes boy run all the more challenging. Barry

A rabbi once explained that the Hebrew intent of the sixth commandment encompasses everything from a mere disparaging thought of the person to the prideful act of taking their life. Jesus said to look at a person with lust in your heart is the same as doing the act. Although Jesus was referring to adultery, I take that as all immoral thoughts. Barry

You guys need to watch the Hawaiians' paddle board. I'm not sure what they consider perfect conditions because I was watching them paddle in the same surf with the surfers. I was pretty impressive. Barry

Oh no not at all. Sometimes my black and white writing style comes off a bit emotional. LOL Actually the members of the board were good adults trying to do the right thing. We were in a stage of maturing. I took the situation personally because we didn't give the scout a good out. I could have forced my hand I guess, but it didn't seem appropriate at the time. A lot of scouts benefited from that experience because I learned more about the requirements of all the ranks as well as providing expectations and guiding scouts more consistently. That was only one of many many of our learning experiences toward growing into a functioning boy run program. LOL I was young and wiling to change, but I think the humility would kill me now. Barry

That was 20 years ago and our troop was only 3 years old still learning how to do this scouting stuff. As I said, the experience taught me how to be a better SM. Griffsmom, I am an engineer and a very black and white. Just ask my family and coworkers who are psychologist. Actually I think that makes for a better SM because most people are some shade of grey and that tends to intrude on the scouts decisions and challenge a boy run program. Where your SM might be going wrong is Pride. That gets in the way sometimes. Barry

We had a scout much like yours that even though he didn't have an official title of responsibility, he worked very hard in the background working with the troop in general. I would say he acted more like an ASM, which is they type of responsibility I encourage on all our older more experienced scouts perform, no matter their rank. This scout was working on his second palm. I gave him a good review and sent him on to the BOR thinking it was a no-brainer. However, the BOR happen to have some Eagles in it who felt that leadership should be more up front and obvious. Being the SM, I observed the scouts more and with a different objective in mind that most of the other adults. I don't think the other adults are doing it wrong because I do guide them in their responsibilties. But I just think Scoutmasters are around the program more often and have more intent on the vision of the program. That is my experience anyway. The BOR took a break and came to talk to me. I explained what I had observed and they didn't feel like it was enough to earn the award. He is an Eagle after all. We debated over it for probably and hour, but it was clear they were not going to sign off this scout. So I learned a lesson to communicate with the BOR better so as not to have surprises in the future. I had hoped the scout would take on a couple more responsibilities to earn the two more palms that was in his plan. But the experience soured him and he aged out without earning any more palms. I became a better SM as a result of the experience. I am a little surprised with your SM's response, but we are all different in how we guide the scouts toward the vision, whatever that may be. That is why I say it is best for the SM to relay his expectations so that everyone is on the same page. Barry

My other post kind of explains my opinion to your question. But sometimes the outcome of two different opinions isn't good. And the Bible refers to that situation for Christians. Goes something like this: 1. Believe in God 2. Never Sin 3. Respect other beliefs 4. You might be persecuted for your belief. Barry