Eagledad

The two laws of motion for boy's are motivation and accountability. Too much of one or not enough of the other can produce undesired leverage in the wrong direction. The balance of motivation and accountability needed to move us forward are different for everyone. But, a general rule is that boys like more adventure than paperwork. So depending on the boy, sometimes we need to be cleaver in turning the paperwork into adventure. Barry

This has been a very sad thread for many reasons, but I was thinking of you Renax as I was driving to work this morning and how you wanted more than anything for your actions in this situation to be the right actions for your son to witness from his dad. How much better would our culture be if all parents made the same effort. As a scout leader and trainer, I expressed many times over the years how scouting is the chance for boys to learn the kind of character habits their parents want them to have when they are fathers, husbands and community leaders. And many witnesses have told me that scouting has done exactly that. But in the last couple years my 32 year old son has been taking the time to call and just chat. And maybe it's because he is about to make me a grandfather for the first time, but he has expressed more than once how appreciative he is of the way his parent raised him. So while I will always champion for a youth program that builds citizens of character and leaders of integrity, there is no replacement for good parents. Well Done Barry

Yes, I got it the first time. How ever you decide to respond, keep the topic on the expectations and the circumstances. Don't point fingers, mention names and don't make it me against the world. If you can't do that, than no response is better than a scorched earth response. Everyone lives in the same community, so maintain your dignity and integrity. Barry

Since my wife does most of the cooking, I asked her for advice with your question. Ok, she's an accountant, what does she know? As and engineer, I enjoy working on these kinds of experiments. I had never thought about cooking an egg in the coals, but there was a time I was trying something similar with the microwave. It seems our results kind of parallel. I found that there is a small window of time where the egg whites get cooked but not the yoke. Pull the egg out of the microwave (coals) before they explode and let it sit a couple minutes while the heat of the egg whites cooks the yoke. It's easier to find that window on the microwave because it cooks consistently, but we are men trying to save the world one small step at a time and have persistence. I look forward to learning your results. Barry

Renax, I understand your hurt, truly I do. Take the time you need to get far enough to think about your next step without letting emotion drive your decisions. Don't loose one bit of the integrity and respect you have built up to this point. People by instinct don't like confrontation and will allow some chaos even when they know it is wrong to prevent getting involved. So, reacting emotionally against what has happened will only push them away from you. If the situation is how you described, these other adults don't have your passion or drive and sooner than later will be looking for someone to release them. And, I learned over the years that the dominant adult driving the program doesn't always have "master" in the title. Be patient, be humble, be loyal, and stay the course. Your passion will be rewarded. Some years later I can say the hurt doesn't completely go away, but going forward without letting the anger make your choices brings a smile and a strong sense of satisfaction for making the hard choices. I wish you the best in the future of scouting my friend. Barry

You mean like same age patrols, NSPs, patrol guides and Venture patrols? LOL Barry

Jim, let's be fair about this, your magnanimous attempt to show the recent liberal changes as taking a more noble direction is sadly disrespectful of past leaders. There was no visible altering of the program as you suggest and I've never heard of any scout being asked to leave because they were part of a group that the BSA restricts from the adult membership because they wanted these young men to experience a values oriented program. I know there are a handful examples law suits in the news, but the reality is that vaste majority of adult leaders wanted every boy to have a chance. Barry

Not in writing, but there was and is no lack of demonizing, name calling, and belittling at the conservatives to bully for liberal change. Not very scout like, but they what they want. Of course The liberals lost their souls in the process because they sold off morality for cultural high ground. As the Girl Scouts, Campfire Kids and the Canadians have learned, a values teaching program can't grow in an environment of compromising morals and ethic principles. Barry

Wait, seems some of us (you) have very short memories. WHAT ABOUT THE LOCAL OPTION SAVING THE BSA? And what are you guys talking about the BSA sticking its foot in the religious door? Because of the season, I was remembering back when I was selected to be part of our public elementary Christmas Boys Choir in the 60s. It was quiet an honor at the time in the community. Let's be fair, it's wasn't that long ago that religion and most anything associated with religion was a good thing. Politics and like minded media have been slowly polluting the minds of our culture. Scouting, schools and even churches just got dragged in. I still laugh thinking back of the posters here who believed that all the BSA needed to fix the bleeding membership problem was just allow gay adult leaders. Let's face it, our culture are just sheep following political wolves. Barry

BSA made it an issue? Please!

Venturing is a mess because the wrong people use it for the wrong reasons, mainly to save the older scouts in troops. We saw 3 out of 5 Crews drop out in less than five years. If the leaders can't make it work in a troop, what makes them think they can do it in a Crew. The most successful Venturing Crews have active programs independent of Troops. Barry

Well not completely useless. Because of my experience of OA back in the day, I didn't push it much while I was a SM. I didn't discourage it and we did have some adults in our troop who enjoyed the program, but I just didn't push it much. However, several of our scouts who did join flourished in OA because they love the serving side of scouting. Most of the OA leadership in our district was from our troop. The adult representatives enjoyed our scouts because they knew how to organize, plan and run events. I took that as a sign of our program being successful. Ironically, because our troop seem to produce good enthusiastic leaders, I was asked several times to be the OA district representative. I always declined without explanation and that frustrated some. But my heart just isn't into the new and modern OA. Barry

I use to say at training that 50% of a SMs job is working with the adults. Not a big deal to a boy run SM in a troop where the scouts camp 100 yards away. But, I really believe it's even more than 50%. Also, a lot of working with parents is understanding where they are coming from and not trying to change them. For example, I learned that most home sickness was a result of the parents struggling with their young sons leaving the home for a few days. We parents have to learn how to give independence just like a scout how to learn to use it. So instead of parents telling their son that they can't wait to see them of the camp or that they will miss them, we instructed them instead to express how they envy the adventure their sons are going on. Ask their sons to write down the highlights of the trip so they can tell them all about it when they get back. We get frustrated that parents don't see the picture our way and expect them to change instantly, but helping our sons grow into independed confident decision makers takes time. Show them how and don't be so frustrated if they don't get it all at once, 50% of your time is with them, so there is no hurry. Barry

These are a few of my basics guidelines I learned over the years for younger boys (13 and younger) that I kept in mind while I was SM. *Instinctively (until puberty) young scouts want adventure, not responsibility. Give them "BIG" doses of adventure, small doses of responsibility. *Young scouts learn 90% of their actions by observing actions of those around them. *Everything a young scout observes in the troop before puberty will be how he acts and behaves after puberty. *The quality of a troop is best measured from the actions of the older scouts. What I’m trying to say is focus on the quality of the older scouts to get the best quality younger scouts. Most troops seem to do the reverse and the result is boring programs focused around 1st Class scouts skills and scouts leaving the troop after puberty. That being said, the BSA looses more scouts in their first six months of joining a troop than any other age. Jumping from following adult instructions all their life to a program expecting them to make independent decisions is very scary for 10 year olds. So, new scouts do require some special attention for the first few months to develop trust in the older scouts and adults. As I said, it took us several years to “kind of†get a grasp of working new scouts. But we found that if you can keep your new scouts six months, you will likely have them for several years. Barry

When I was a scout in the 60/70s, each Troop voted for the two OA candidates minimum age 14. Only two, so it was always the two best scouts in the troop. And usually these scouts were the most active campers and leaders. Being voted as a candidate was considered more honorable than earning the Eagle because you were voted in by your peers. And if the candidate passed their ordeal ( that was not automatic back then) the scouts were considered the best of the best. Kind of Special Forces of scouting. Ask an Eagle scout who was in the OA back then and he will fill you will stories of the OA and hardly mention the Eagle. Today all the scouts are expected to be voted in, which takes the honor out of it. Barry

Very much so. We tried several different styles of bringing new scouts into the troop before we had enough experience to understand what works and why. You have heard me say several times before that the adults have to learn twice as much twice as fast to build a good boy run program that doesn't get in the boys way. Once you (the adults) understand that learning is part of the experience and that it is OK to change, it's starts to become more fun and less frustrating. I see your future and are going to enjoy your scouting experiences. You will love this scouting stuff. Barry

Obviously not because the rest of your post isn't BSA recommendations either. I know of a lot of Boy Run programs that work very well within the system. But, I also know a lot of scouters with chips on their shoulder and use blaming the BSA to prop themselves up to look taller in the room. The way your run your troop of five scouts is even an example of working within the BSA system. You can blame your parents, your ASMs and Unit commissioners. Even can even blame your district volunteers and council leadership, but that still doesn't mean the BSA policies and guidelines are the real source of your angst. Barry

I don't know the experiences or ages of your scouts, so take this in stride, but we never had a good TG that was younger than 14, and most of our 15 and older TGs were better than great. Puberty changes a person's perspective of life. Barry

You did it wrong, the BSA doesn't recommend using that method. Barry

Was the scout disruptive to be disruptive, or is struggling with the behavior? Behavior is hard to change and requires self motivation, that is human nature. The question is can the scout demonstrate a motivation to change? I can think back on several scouts that were disruptive because of their parents and the only ones who changed and stuck with the program where the ones whose parents made an effort to change. It's these boys who really needs scouts, but some fires are so big that the typical scouting program isn't enough to squash the pain. Those young men need something extra. Sometimes we have it, sometimes we don't. Barry

Yes, I think males are attracted to serrated edges like fish are attracted to shinny objects. LOL Barry

One subject of skills I see left out a lot but is very important for everyday scouting is woods tools. Most adults have never touch an axe or tree saw, much less use them. I read once that the tree saw is the number one cause of emergency room visits for scouts. Barry

I don't disagree with anything that you said. But for a moment imagine stosh and I presenting the same course side-by-side, is there any way National could write the syllabus so that the courses are presented identically? Don't presume I am defending National's courses. Because of my position at the time, I was asked to give some comments for the new soon to be NYLT course when it was being developed. They used ZERO of my suggestions and the course is opposite of what I think a Council Level JLT course should be. Barry

The course teachers in NYLT are youth, has that changed? Even our JLTC course directors were youth when I was the Council JLT Chair. Well 19 to 21 year old scouts who had Council and National level JLT training. In fact, I think that just about all JLT courses have youth teachers. Maybe that is the flaw in your council. Barry