Eagledad

Well these seems like huge steps forward. I'm laughing at the Iphone teaching tool. LOL You made some fairly critical observations of the SPL, and in your words you appear to be expecting experienced performance from a first timer. The task appeared to me to be somewhat challenging and complicated. There is a lot of fruit growing from that tree. You seemed more concerned about the perception of the overall performance without acknowledging the individual growth. Next time this happens, ask the scout how he thinks he performed.The answer to that question has humbled me many times. I think you are doing OK. Maybe a few little stumbles, but as long as the each step is going forward, you will get there. Barry

I've studied this subject for years and watched our council member ship numbers, national numbers and just plain talked to a lot of people to understand the whole of the subject. First, it must be noted that the BSA loses more scouts during the first year troop scouts than any other age from Tigers to Venturing. At least it was that way until 5 years ago when I got out of that business. Next, National came out with a study around 1989 that showed that if scouts got to first class in their first year, they were likely to stay with the troop, aaaand, if the scout stayed with the troop a year, they were likely to stay several years. My own study is that getting to first class has little effect of boys staying in the program, rather they stay with an active program that also typically encourages scouts to advance. But as some here already said, many scouts who don't advance quickly stay on as well. So it stands that the program is what attracts boys, not advancement by itself. Aaaaaand my data and experience show that if a scouts is still active after summer camp, you will likely keep him several years. The reason National can't get their one year number to months is because they can only track yearly membership after rechartering, I tracked real time. One of my beefs with National's 1989 data is that it was the motivation for creating New Scout Patrols (NSP), Venture Patrols, and the First Class in the First year program. All fine in theory, but the reality is that those changes shifted much of the control from the boys to the adults. Boy independence for directing their destiny in the program is heart of the classic scout program. Those changes inadvertently change that. AND, after all that, the data 20 year later in 2009 showed that the rate of loss for first year troop scouts is about the same. In fact, I was told once that the first year loss rate has always been the highest loss of scouts and has been and on going problem. National was wrong that same age patrols and advancement were the solution to the new scout dropping problem. If you aren't willing to consider that, than you will struggle to have an open mind for solutions. So, what does it take to keep a new scout long enough that he buys into the program. Well after a lot of years of researching this, I and a few others concluded that the huge jump of going from an adult lead lifestyle all their life to a self independent decision making program where boys around your age are responsible for your health and safety is pretty scary. Very scary in fact. At first independence appeals to these new scouts who have been told by "adults" that they get to make their own decisions in the troop, but it doesn't take long to realize that living with your personal decisions, and more importantly having to live with your buddy decisions, may not be fun or in the scouts best interest. So, the scout starts looking for excuses to skip a meeting or two, then a campout and eventually several campouts. Summer camp is kind of the final straw. But interestingly enough scouts who attend summer camp are forced to endure the scouting lifestyle long enough that it starts to grow on them and they except it for the better things like, well like adventure. So, what can a troop do to get the scout from adult led life to wondering by himself in the darkness. The best programs I've seen use a New Scout ASM who works close with the Patrol Leaders or Troop Guides to show the scouts how the boy run system not only works, but is kind of cool. Also the ASM and the PL/TG work as a team to show the new scout that PL/TG are in control and the ASM is the assistant to the PL/TG. The ASM is also a safety valve for the new scout so that when he gets uncomfortable with the program and still doesn't trust the youth led style, they can seek out a friendly trusted adult. But, the ASM will always defer and work with the patrol leader with the intent of helping the new scout see and learn to trust that the PL truly is the person responsible for his safety and welfare and that they are very capable. Safety and welfare are typically a new scouts concerns. How many times have new scouts urinated on their tent in the middle of the night because the darkness of the woods terrified them to go any farther? The trick to the ASM/PL relationship is that the ASM needs to gradually step back as the new scout gets more comfortable. We found that the ASM was pretty much finished after two or three months. Now we can go back and forth on New Scout Patrols or friends or mixed age patrols, but they don't really matter if the troop isn't dealing with the problem of getting the new scout comfortable with making independent decisions and that his safety and welfare are good in the hands of the other scouts. That is a very basic take on the subject from what I have learned over the years. Barry

Which is why it is so very important to know where you are going; have a clear vision. As I said earlier, scout skills, camping, uniforms leadership and so on are not the main goals or visions. They are only the methods. That is the trap many adults get caught in and why they trend away from boy run. They simply don't know where they are going. An easy way to keep the priorities strait is give the scouts the responsiblities of working the Eight Methods (Ideals, patrols, outdoors, leadership, personal growth, adult association, advancement, and uniform) and the adults focused on the responsibilities of the Three Aims (fitness, citizenship and character). Boy run is the actions of the scout achieving the vision by developing habits of making moral and ethical decisions. Methods are proactive actions to reach the passive traits of the Aims. You stay in check by keeping the adults out of the scouts responsibilties of the methods. All adult choices or reactions should be based on character, fitness and citizenship (descision making). Easier said than done however. How does the SM stay in focus of the Aims when the scouts "chose" not to take responsibility of wearing the uniform? Or camping, or leadership? And for there to be growth, the scout has to make the concous effort to make the right decision. There is no growth if the authority tells the scout to do it differently. Man that's tough, which is why this scouting stuff and boy run isn't as simple as setting tents 100 yards apart. AND, adults have to develop the skill of working the program at the maturity and skill of the scouts. Does anyone really think a 12 year old SPL will perform equally with the experienced 16 year old SPL? It takes practice, but adults have to adapt as the maturity of the scouts change and they have to work it in the context of the Aims or vision. Not the methods. Sounds like you are getting it. Well done. Barry

Blw2. you are reinterpreting the founders to fit within your vision of a program design. You won't find Powell Green Bar Bill talking about same age patrols because their patrol design required older scouts to develop growth of all the ages within the patrols. And while I understand the bias that is based from your experience, you should at least remember that mixed age patrols worked very successfully for almost 90 years. Now don't get me wrong, I'm open minded with folks trying different approaches to get better performance. Hey, we tried same age patrols and learned a lot from the experience. But your post reminded me of a big difference adults have with today's patrol methods compared to my troop's adults in the 70s. As a team, most patrols in the 70s basically had an equal balance of skills and competed fairly with each other in scouting activities. Even patrols from different troops had that same basic level of skills. Today young scouts aren't expected to associate fairly with the other patrols because they lack the skills and experience of the more experienced patrols. That by it's nature forces the young scouts into a different level of activities than the rest of the troop. I find that difference of adult thought strange and nonsensical, especially for a boy run program. But then, I came from the 70s. When we started my son's new troop, I had an expectation for the scouts and the patrols based from my experience as a scout. I have noticed that Eagle94's expectations are based from his experiences. I'm curious, since you don't have much scouting experience as a youth, where do the expectations for your scouts came from? I'm not trying to be condescending or put you down, we all have a lot to contribute to the forum. But I can't imagine how you take the next step without the foundation of experience to draw a vision. Barry

How many scouts total do you have now and at what age? Our troop started with 17 scouts and averaged 25 new scouts a year for the next 10 years. I can't even begin to tell you the challenges of a fast growing "boy run" troop. Let's just say we did more things wrong than we did right. And I fully agree that mixed age troops are better performers for boy run programs. But there are a few situations where NSPs fit better for new scouts. At least for the first few months. As much as new scouts think they like the independence of a troop program when they join, they quickly find the chaos of boys making decisions in their new lifestyle a bit unnerving. New scouts require some special attention for their first few months to help them appreciate and enjoy the benefits of independence. BSA data shows that if a scout stays active in a troop for one year, they will likely stay with that troop several years. My observation of hundreds of new scouts shows that if the new scout stays active after summer camp, he will likely stay for several years. Barry

I don't know why but after reading thread, the theorem of "a troop naturally scales to the size the Scoutmaster can manage" keeps popping in my head. That being said, I really like MattR's reply because it works for every SM no matter the size of the troop or the patrol method style. Good thread, good stuff. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Our troop gradually changed away from using lanterns when we went to a back packing troop. We weren't trying to make point, save fuel or anything, lanterns was just one less thing to carry. And the experience showed us that we don't need light very often except for sometimes for detail task like preparing food or something. Anyway I think the first time we realized how much Difference it made was during camporee where all the other troops had enough light for To light up a football field. Of course we also stuck out because our camp didn't have big ol patrol boxes or elaborate kitchen set ups. Kind of funny, some troops thought we were a poor troop that couldn't afford equipment. Others didn't realize we were one of the bigger troops there because our camp site doesn't stand out so much without a lot of gear. Each patrol still has lanterns, Dutch ovens, axes, shovels, big Colemen stoves and other gear we collected over the years that they use occasionally when the need arrives. But the scouts (not so much the adults) are pretty minimalistic. I remember a guide at Philmont was surprised by how fast we set up and broke down our camp sites. I told him that camping out of a backpack is a normal day for the troop. we just aren't used to bears in Oklahoma. Barry

Try a couple of camp outs without lanterns and see how it goes. Call it survival nights or minimal packing or something. Just a trial, but change your routine to see what happens. We observed that boys tend to lean torward 'less' stuff. Try and just see. To your question, we like propane equipment because it is the most durable with scouts. Barry

Meanwhile back at the ranch. We went through this I think in 1998 and it is important that everyone, SCOUTS and adults, understand the changes because it can be a big mess at BOR. Trust me. The risk, at least back then, was record keeping, which is no big deal until Council has to verify a scouts records for Eagle. I think record keeping is a little better now at the council with computers. After we experienced the problems at BOR, we did some training to get everyone (even interested parents) up to speed. In our troop, training is considered important for patrol method. To simplify it for us, we drew a line, those who started on the old system stayed on the old system. Everyone else started new. It not only made it easier on the adults who do have to verify the records at BOR, but also on the scouts and patrol leaders. Barry

The title of the thread is "Troop Meetings: How to Motivate the Troop". Barry

Ah, the " my way of the highway." approach to ideas. LOL Oh, what was that about the Scout Law? Barry

Your son sounds like mine. Both set some new ideas and standards for working with new scouts, but neither had any ambition beyond working with new scouts. The risk of helping place scouts where they appear to fit is not giving them the chance to find their true calling. What we adults really want is for the scouts to determine their best skills so they can seek out responsibilities that fit their own limitations and interest. Also sadly, the scouting program design gives the appearance that leadership (not responsibility) experience is required to be a good scout. The adults can either encourage that idea (and most do), or they can retranslate it to mean a scout should seek out his own skill sets by challenging themselves with responsabilties of their interest. When I was fairly new at Scoutmastering, I had a scout who didn't seem all the happy with scouting. His dad was one of our most active committee members and kept him in the program. So I suggested he run for PL, which only set him farther away from my trust. Leadership was not his thing, but in an effort to be a good SM, I kept searching for tasks that would give him a taste of some kind of responsibilities. Our troop was ask to participate in the annual Council Scout Fair, so we seree were throwing around ideas and I suggested teaching scouts and scouter how to use the internet to get ideas for their program. BAM, this scout grab that idea, took ownership and had four computers set up to show how to find sites and ideas for scouting. I mean we didn't have to do anything except to show up and listen to him train us. And, our booth was so popular that we were clogging up the main isle of the building. That scout changed, he became one of our most active scouts until he aged out with his Eagle. You just never know what a scout can really do until he finds that nitch. And then you better watch out. Barry

One of my suggestions when this happened in our troop was change the location of the meeting. So come up with a theme that requires a fun meeting somewhere else. The park, the lake, gym, basket ball court, military base, or something. Do something completely different, even just a movie. The SPL is trying to get the cart out of the rut, sometimes that takes doing something completely different. Barry

Wow, sounds like the adult's final word on the matter. You need to stand 100 yards back sir. Anything can be made somewhat pleasurable with the right creativity. "Somethings aren't fun but have to be done" is adult speak and encourages close mindedness. Instead we should show humility by admitting you (the adult) don't have an answer, and open mindedness by asking for help in creating a solution to move forward. Scouts can be pretty creative when given motivation and appreciation. By the way, it hasn't been mentioned yet, but some scouts just don't have leadership skills or ambition and don't mind failing. They aren't bad scouts, they are just in the wrong place to grow. Our troop once cancelled a NASA trip to Houston because of such a scout. Great kid who loved scouting, but that leadership gig just wasn't his thing. Barry

The two laws of motion for boy's are motivation and accountability. Too much of one or not enough of the other can produce undesired leverage in the wrong direction. The balance of motivation and accountability needed to move us forward are different for everyone. But, a general rule is that boys like more adventure than paperwork. So depending on the boy, sometimes we need to be cleaver in turning the paperwork into adventure. Barry

This has been a very sad thread for many reasons, but I was thinking of you Renax as I was driving to work this morning and how you wanted more than anything for your actions in this situation to be the right actions for your son to witness from his dad. How much better would our culture be if all parents made the same effort. As a scout leader and trainer, I expressed many times over the years how scouting is the chance for boys to learn the kind of character habits their parents want them to have when they are fathers, husbands and community leaders. And many witnesses have told me that scouting has done exactly that. But in the last couple years my 32 year old son has been taking the time to call and just chat. And maybe it's because he is about to make me a grandfather for the first time, but he has expressed more than once how appreciative he is of the way his parent raised him. So while I will always champion for a youth program that builds citizens of character and leaders of integrity, there is no replacement for good parents. Well Done Barry

Yes, I got it the first time. How ever you decide to respond, keep the topic on the expectations and the circumstances. Don't point fingers, mention names and don't make it me against the world. If you can't do that, than no response is better than a scorched earth response. Everyone lives in the same community, so maintain your dignity and integrity. Barry

Since my wife does most of the cooking, I asked her for advice with your question. Ok, she's an accountant, what does she know? As and engineer, I enjoy working on these kinds of experiments. I had never thought about cooking an egg in the coals, but there was a time I was trying something similar with the microwave. It seems our results kind of parallel. I found that there is a small window of time where the egg whites get cooked but not the yoke. Pull the egg out of the microwave (coals) before they explode and let it sit a couple minutes while the heat of the egg whites cooks the yoke. It's easier to find that window on the microwave because it cooks consistently, but we are men trying to save the world one small step at a time and have persistence. I look forward to learning your results. Barry

Renax, I understand your hurt, truly I do. Take the time you need to get far enough to think about your next step without letting emotion drive your decisions. Don't loose one bit of the integrity and respect you have built up to this point. People by instinct don't like confrontation and will allow some chaos even when they know it is wrong to prevent getting involved. So, reacting emotionally against what has happened will only push them away from you. If the situation is how you described, these other adults don't have your passion or drive and sooner than later will be looking for someone to release them. And, I learned over the years that the dominant adult driving the program doesn't always have "master" in the title. Be patient, be humble, be loyal, and stay the course. Your passion will be rewarded. Some years later I can say the hurt doesn't completely go away, but going forward without letting the anger make your choices brings a smile and a strong sense of satisfaction for making the hard choices. I wish you the best in the future of scouting my friend. Barry

You mean like same age patrols, NSPs, patrol guides and Venture patrols? LOL Barry

Jim, let's be fair about this, your magnanimous attempt to show the recent liberal changes as taking a more noble direction is sadly disrespectful of past leaders. There was no visible altering of the program as you suggest and I've never heard of any scout being asked to leave because they were part of a group that the BSA restricts from the adult membership because they wanted these young men to experience a values oriented program. I know there are a handful examples law suits in the news, but the reality is that vaste majority of adult leaders wanted every boy to have a chance. Barry

Not in writing, but there was and is no lack of demonizing, name calling, and belittling at the conservatives to bully for liberal change. Not very scout like, but they what they want. Of course The liberals lost their souls in the process because they sold off morality for cultural high ground. As the Girl Scouts, Campfire Kids and the Canadians have learned, a values teaching program can't grow in an environment of compromising morals and ethic principles. Barry

Wait, seems some of us (you) have very short memories. WHAT ABOUT THE LOCAL OPTION SAVING THE BSA? And what are you guys talking about the BSA sticking its foot in the religious door? Because of the season, I was remembering back when I was selected to be part of our public elementary Christmas Boys Choir in the 60s. It was quiet an honor at the time in the community. Let's be fair, it's wasn't that long ago that religion and most anything associated with religion was a good thing. Politics and like minded media have been slowly polluting the minds of our culture. Scouting, schools and even churches just got dragged in. I still laugh thinking back of the posters here who believed that all the BSA needed to fix the bleeding membership problem was just allow gay adult leaders. Let's face it, our culture are just sheep following political wolves. Barry