Eagledad

The university of Scouting does help some, but it still doesn't make a bad presenter all that good. Some folks have the gift, some don't. Our training committee made a huge change simply by looking for leaders who have jobs or a lot of experience in presenting this kind of material. I know for my own Scoutmaster specific course, I found two Scoutmasters who also college teachers. The difference in quality of training made huge leaps. The problem is that it takes more effort to find these people and to recruit them. But once you do, the reputation of the training improves. Barry

Wow, this is pretty good. Barry

Well I'm curious stosh, you are are the most anti-BSA program contributor on this forum. What could we teach a UC that would work with both stosh scouts and the mega troop down the street? From observation, districts with good UCs have good District Commissioners that know and understand the responsibilities. Bad DCs, bad UCs. By the way, I have not been a UC, but I took the training (long time ago) and I believe that most folks don't really understand what is expected of a UC. If we could review that first, we won't be going off into the woods with answers. Does anybody here have a syllabus and manual that can guide us with the BSA's expectations for a UC. Barry

Hmm, to me this says more about your District Commissioner than the new Unit Commissioners. A good DC will not only recruit abled bodied volunteers, they also guide them with be expectations, instructions, training and pep talks. I used to recruit our UCs and I wouldn't even bother with someone who refused training. In my opinion the DC has more power to make change than any other person from the DE on down. But getting the right person for that job is very challenging. Barry

I'm not sure how much weight a retired scouters opinion should carry when discussing how much weekend free time a young parent with a full time job should be willing to give up just to volunteer for their son's unit. As a past member of the Council Training Committee and District membership committee, I can say a few hours away from home on weekends makes a big difference in the number of parents deciding to volunteer their time. And it is getting harder every year. A huge reason Webelos suffers from lack of volunteers is because Bear leaders who are usually mothers typically have no interest in camping, cooking and teaching Boy Scout skills. Now add to that angxiety a weekend away from their family for training in the hot or cold outdoors. Not surprisingly many quit hoping some dad will takeover. And many times none step up. I worked hard with the training committees trying to figure out ways of getting volunteers trained without taking so much of their family time. But it is a huge huge challenge. This doesn't help the Webelos problem so much, but maybe troops should to be expected to carry more of the training load. Our troop requires all new ASMs to attend the totin chit class with the new scouts which is taught by youth training team. I used to teach Woods Tools at IOLS and while I used the totin chit lesson plan, it was really more of an introduction because schedule didn't permit thorough training. Not to mention additional instruction from instructors who had specific skills and knowledge beyond published manuals like sharpening a 3/4 ax. The demands of parents today are a huge challenge for the BSA to qualify unskilled parents to take responsibility for other parents sons. No easy solution. Barry

Yes, the classroom part is what I was responding to with the OP because I used to teach it. I don't think anyone would care if he sat in. As for the SSScouts IOLS comment, I didn't think it worth correcting him since it wasn't part of the discussion. Barry

Council used our district as an example of doing that very thing. Barry

I don't think it's a problem taking the course, most instructors will let him sit in. It's a matter of getting credit. I think Eagle94's answer fixes the problem. As for testing out, I use to teach the course and don't remember any test to give. Plus, a lot of the information given isn't something even an Eagle Scout would have come across in his scouting experience. That's why the course is so painfully boring. Barry

Thanks blw2, I appreciate your post. Yes, I lack the skill to make a point quickly. But read it again because it wasn't about a difference of opinions, it was about denigrating other people to present an idea. If tearing other people down is the only way to express your ideas and opinions, then the words have no integrity and aren't worth expressing. As for calling the kettle black, you could be right. But stosh used to be a minister, he understands the basis of rebuke. Barry

Hi htusa, welcome to the place of ideas and imagination. Please don't take this wrong, but I was hard headed and learned how to work with boys by doing more things wrong than I did right. Honestly, I cringe when I look back at myself. I think most of us do. You aren't ready. If you haven't yet developed the skills to get the desired response from parents without using a condescending approach, you haven't grown enough yet to build a team of parents willing to support you in the most difficult times. The objective of sports is simple. But in the deep woods of values and ideals, the methods of the scouting program today can be a hard sell. Much of the time parents may not understand the program, but they will trust the leader. Parents have a good feel for character and if the adult who is working close with their son is comfortable freely talking down to adults, how much easier would he be talking down to their son? The principle of scouting is guiding scouts to make good decisions based from the values of the Oath and Law. There is nothing scout like in being condescending. Barry

Its this kind of hypocrisy that I have little patience for. You have preached this method of POR to the forum using your two troops as examples for several years. Do you really expect us to believe that it's a coincidence that both troops use the same method. We know they got the same "arbitrary adult" guidance from the same adult SM, who brags often on this forum that he, and only he, is the only adult allowed to work with the scouts. No big deal to those of us who also started troops and understand that adults have to start somewhere. But I am astounded that you don't see the hypocrisy of your demonization of everyone else. And let's for a moment just say your ridiculous assertion that scouts starting with an adult idea is anti boy run. Then the only other possible approach for a new troop is let the scouts start with NO guidance at all. How would that work? Send the 10 year old scouts off into the woods by themselves for a weekend? I have often suggested to new leaders starting new troops to consider using the SPL Hand book, PL Handbook and Scout Handbook to guide their program because it is simple for both the adults and scouts to understand, and it implies more emphasis on letting the scouts make decisions and taking control than new adult leaders are experienced to giving. But what election cycle method do you think those resources would suggest the scouts start using? Does it really matter? Big talk, and to be honest, if you were capable of preaching your scouting ideals without denigrating your fellow brother and sister scout leaders to make your point, I think you have a lot to offer. But you won't or can't and we miss out on some good ideas. But I can see that you don't really get it yet. There is nothing wrong with using 6 months for an election cycle. There is nothing wrong with 4 months or 12 months if it accomplished growth toward the mission because it is just one small tool the adults use to reach big goal. A good scoutmaster knows It is not the end all. If it were, it would be the only method. I had this same discussions with Kudu. He believed that the BSA program was inferior to the Badon Powell Scouts program because he had success with that program's method of selecting the Patrol leader. The SM in Badon Powell Scouts selects the Patrol Leader with the knowledge the scout could stay in that position for several years. Talk about the risk of selecting favorites. Kudu was one of the best scouters I have ever known, he would use that method to programs best intention. But how many other adults understand the method enough to make that impartial selection. My contention was that a good SM could use any style of selection and didn't have to rely on a specific youth organization standard to reach the same goals. And I think I proved it in our discussions. Programs are too big for one small method to have that kind of influence. A good adult leader will always produce good results with what ever tool he is presented because they understand the actions required for growth and not submit to letting the shell of the method limit performance. Its interesting for me that you believe that left up to scouts, your ideals would be their choice. Ironically our PLC 18 years ago was asked by the SM to consider switching from the 6 month cycle election to something closer to your troops POR style. The SM gave them suggestions of the advantage for using the system so they could make the choice with full understanding of it. The PLC seriously considered the suggestion and decided against it because the effort to change the system within their program was not worth the gains proposed. Who was more wrong, the SM for proposing an arbitrary adult idea, or the Scouts for not using the system that might have been a better for them in the long run? Or was anybody wrong? We will never know, but I give credit and was proud of the scouts for looking at the big picture and measuring the risk. Pretty mature approach in my book. On a side note, the SM (me) was disappointed they didn't try, but I also considered that my disappointment was likely seeded from pride. You think your POR style is better, great. But try to explain it's advantages without using condescending straw men to demonize the other troops and the scouts using them. I don't think you can and as a result readers can only move on to the next responses that are without the condescending insinuations. Is there nobody you are afraid of offending? For those of us who can see the big picture because we have the Been There Done That t-shirt, your advantage over most leaders taking over programs is that you started with clean slate and fresh new scouts to experiment your ideals. You didn't have to contend with all the baggage (traditions, habits and routines) from the previous program, so you can't relate with the struggle of changing troop cultures. And you show that through your responses that have a tone of start over. You had the luxury of starting with stoshs arbitrary adult ideas from the beginning. As I said, we understand that scouts need a safe starting place to do their scouting stuff because we all know that it would be criminal to send 10 year old boys off into the dark woods by themselves without any guidance at all. Yep, you by default are that guy that you blindly hate so much on this forums. You are an adult with a vision and idea of methods for scouts to use to reach the vision. Strange you don't see it. That is Ok, I'm here to guide. Barry

It's a tradition that 95% of troops use for their election cycle. Where does is come from, different places in BSA literature that kind of set the tone for the 6 month cycle. Example from the Eagle Requirements list.: While a Life Scout, serve actively in your unit for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility. List only those positions served after your Life board of review date. ***

Boy, there are some really well written responses here, and I don't want to take away from them at all. I have bullying story that brings the Scouts into the light. One year I attended our biannual Council Leaders meeting where all district leaders attend to get briefed on scouting updates from National and to get continued education for our specific responsibilities. The Council Executive always starts this meeting meeting with the intention of raising spirits and setting a positive tone with a little humor and a lot of praise. He started this particular meeting reading a letter from a mom who was praising the troop program where her son was a patrol leader. She explained that his a very awkward boy who doesn't relate normally with other people and had basically no social skills. As a result, he had very few friends and very few interest where he would mix with other kids his age. What was worse was the way his teachers and school counselors treated him. She didn't go into details much except to say that adults can be as bullying to kids as the kids. She emphasized it by saying that they were in litigation with the school. The point of the letter was that the one place where her son felt was accepted for who he was was his boy scout troop. She explained that it was the one place we he didn't feel judged, much less bullied. He was given the room and encouragement to do the best he could, and as a result, he at the time of the letter was a Patrol Leader, which is turns out was a dream of his. Maybe even hers. During my district and council responsibilities, I was able to observe hundreds of other units. I matured a lot during those years because learned a lot about how different we adults can really be. I was naive to say the least. But because I seem to have a gift for working with people, I was called to deal with difficult situations. As a result I was confronted with, and had to deal with, the behaviors of alcoholism, infidelity, racism, mental abuse, physical abuse, bullying of both adults and youth by both adults and youth and so on. My heart ached for these people, especially for the scouts. I got calls in the middle of the night by the police to help deal with family situations where the boy knew me. I learned a lot those years about our fellow adults. Maybe that is why I'm less patient with some of the tone on this thread. But I also learned that in the vast majority of the cases, the scouts felt safe in the troop. In most, not all, but most cases scouting was a sanctuary from the part of their life that caused pain. I think the patrol method design also insulates scouts away from even difficult adults in the unit. Of course there are a lot of not so good stories opposite of the letter the SE read to all the district leaders of the council. But I think you will find that in general, scouting is a refuge for boys in many ways. See, while the SE didn't know that the SM of that troop was in attendance of the meeting, I also didn't know the letter was from a mother of a scout in our troop. I knew the scout very well because he was a very awkward boy who stood out from the crowd. I knew his parents well because they were extremely supportive with their resources without ever asking for anything in return. They were a nice family. I did start putting two and two together when the letter gave some details of the program that I obviously found familiar. But I'm not sure anyone in our troop knew of this scouts struggles in his private life because the family never mentioned them. I only knew of the law suit from the letter. As different as he is, the scout never stuck out so much in our program that we would have guessed is personal situation. Not that he wasn't challenging, he thinks differently than most of us. To give you an idea of his intelligence, last I heard was he was is an engineer on a nuclear submarine. To give you and idea of his behavior challenges in in our troop, he nearly stroked out on us at Philmont because he decided water wasn't important for his diet. His crew mates interceded and saved his life. Actually they save him twice because I was tempted to kill him for pulling the stunt. But truly folks, he was that way. There are a lot of wonderful youth organizations that our kids can join and grow positively from the experience. But I can't think of another organization with something like the patrol method. When used correctly, the patrol eventually bonds into a whole where each member contributes to make the whole better. They can't help but grow so close that members are willing to ignore the awkward ways of the others and accept and respect each other for what they contribute to the group. In most cases, no matter how different the members are in personalities and lifes experiences, they bond and grow. I have heard more than once that Boy Scouts is for nerds. Well I think it is much much more than that of course, but maybe it gets the reputation because so many of awkward boys join scouts to find themselves and be accepted for what they are. This wasn't our only scout with a challenging character, so I'm convinced the patrol method is special and very powerful when used by its design. I drifted off the subject just a bit, but I felt I needed to add this somewhat long post to such a quick and short point. Thanks for your patience. Barry

Here we go again, no prisoners. ALL adults have a vision, especially stosh who beats his vision over our heads over and over. What is at issue is how the scouts reach the adult vision. I don't agree with stosh's style of peddling his vision, but he has admitted in the past that he and I seem to have the same direction for scouts. And let me throw in some cold water of reality, Boy Scouts is not the boys program, it belongs to adults who use the program to reach a vision for their son the scouts. The BSA in short says the mission is to develop boys into moral and ethical men whose decisions are guided by the Scout Oath and Law. Sounds like a pretty noble goal to me. Now from it's beginning, scouting's founders have said that giving scouts the freedom and independence to make decisions using the Scout Oath and Law is the best way for him learn from his decisions and work toward the vision of a moral ethical decision maker. You won't find any of the founders suggesting adults have no place in the program. So lets not get stuck in the mud of adult personality styles that should and shouldn't be used to help the scout toward a vision. Every adult is different and most have basically the same goals for their scouts. Adults have a responsibility to promote scout growth. You, not Barry or stosh, have to decide if a tradition the scouts are using is in fact hurting or helping toward scout growth and how you can influence change it if need be. Stosh has posted a lot of advice to help adults improve their mentoring, coaching, and leadership skill, so I'm lost where that rant came from. Truth is everyone else here will agree that developing the art of mentoring, coaching, and leading is the best way to improve the boy's experience in the program. In fact, that is what this forum is really about. The adults have the big picture, or should have the big picture of where the scouts should be heading. Scouts have their side of the program that is intended to progress their own personal objectives and goals as well. The troop needs to be a safe place where boys can be fostered forward with all their decisions, right or wrong. Adults have vast amounts of knowledge and experiences that the scouts haven't even begun to acquire. So does it make sense that the adults aren't supposed to nudge the program here and add a little something there to not only improve scout growth, but also help make the experience more fun and meaningful? Truth of the matter is that there is a lot of give and take to maintaining a balance for keeping a boy run program going forward without the adults being intrusive. Is it reasonable to expect the SM to work with the 12 year old SPL the same as the 16 year old SPL? In reality, working with scouts without being intrusive is an art that takes a lot of practice. Theory is a good place to start, but the good leaders not only are willing to change, the expect to change because 12 year olds should be guided differently than 16 year olds. So lets move on from this narcissistic take no prisoners my way or the highway nonsense and actually discuss what the adults can do to enhance the program so that it can be the very best boy run patrol method program it can. Barry

Many troops, really? It's a concept I never heard of much except on forums. Oh a troop might be forced to restructure as a result of some unusual circumstances like doubling troop size overnight, but not on a regular basis that you suggest. Is this a problem in your area? Barry

That's not an adult expectation? What you really mean is that you aren't interested in our adult expectations, only your adult expectations. Barry

Hi all I stopped to get gas and as I was leaving the gas pump, I had to move awkwardly into the corner of the lot to get out of the way of a police car I was blocking. No big deal, but as I was driving home just a couple blocks away, the officer stopped me. He was from a nearby town and I wasn't speeding, so I didn't have a clue why I was stopped. He came over to my car said, "do you remember me? I'm Eric!". That was fun, our troop has such great scouts. You never know when you will run into one of your past scouts and moments like these remind me that we must have had some influence in their life for them to go out of their way just to say hello. My biggest challenge at my age is trying to put the face of the man on the memory of the boy. Eric must have put on 75 lbs. LOL Ah, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Yes, I knew that. You have been on this forum a long time and your character is firmly planted in the patrol method. As you know, this scouting stuff isn't easy, everyone especially the adults have to grow for the program to mature. It's a slow process and that is a test of our patience making the rewards seem all that farther away. But the evidence of the patrol method will become more obvious and you will gain respect as a result. As that happens, there will be less resistance to your ideals and the growth will pick up pace. I tell this so that maybe you can take a moment to enjoy it now during the birthing pains instead of waiting 15 years to be stopped by a strange adult just wanting to say "remember me?". Barry

We have tried many ways of mixing new scouts into the troop, but this method is by far our most successful. We had the least complaints from all the new scouts and their parents and they assimilated the quickest into the patrol method program. We also have the least discipline problems because the new scouts and their new patrol mates became friends quickly. New scouts are typically the most difficult behavior problems because they are new to independence and it takes a little while to learn the boundaries of good behavior. Barry

NONE (emphasis) of the data from the 1989 survey mentioned program. I was one of those who did as much research as possible at the time, which was pre-internet and was basically the booklet and supporting literature. Yes, that was a long time ago and I can't remember all my sources, a lot of what I was saying came from pros who were involved with the data. Agree Summer camp is THE biggest way to retain Scouts. We are not the best troop out there, we do have some challenges in youth led and some boring meetings. BUT those who have gone to summer camp stay around. I need to be careful how I say these things because this is an example of starting bad policies by saying it the wrong way (I can see it now, a rash of WB ticket items to make all the new scouts go to summer camp). Summer camp won't sell a boy to a bad program, but it is a great place for the boy in a good troop to see how the program works and why it is something worth continuing. Your troop has something going for it to keep all those new scouts. As for Venture crews, now called Venture patrols, for us it was just a new name for the Leadership Corps. I did mean Venture Patrols. Do they not have those anymore? The Venture patrols were created so that older scouts 14 and older could form their own patrol. I think it is more harmful to the Troop program than the NSP because it takes the older scouts away from the younger scout right at their prime, and it prevents the older scouts from managing the whole troop program. As I've said before, a troops younger scout program depends on the quality of the older scouts part of the program. If you don't have older scouts, the troop is stuck in a young scout program, which is typically a First Class Skills program. By the way, there was a rumor a few years ago that National was using the NSP and Venture Patrol to eventually split the program into two programs, 10 thru 13, and 14 thru 17. I don't know if it was true, but there was some angst about it on the forums. The Venturing Crew program is another problem. The challenge I'm currently finding in my troop regarding NSPs is that A) the adults are to quick to jump in and help the NSP, and they never really get the chance to solve their own problems. and B) the youth keep coming to the adults with problems. Part of that is that we have not really had good TGs IMHO. Yes, that is the way they have been doing it since the scout was born. The problem isn't that they can't change, it's finding someone who understands the problem and guides them toward change. It's a slow process that never stops because just as soon as you get most up to speed, a new group of Webelos with gung ho parents join. It makes good SMs into great ones. Barry

Well these seems like huge steps forward. I'm laughing at the Iphone teaching tool. LOL You made some fairly critical observations of the SPL, and in your words you appear to be expecting experienced performance from a first timer. The task appeared to me to be somewhat challenging and complicated. There is a lot of fruit growing from that tree. You seemed more concerned about the perception of the overall performance without acknowledging the individual growth. Next time this happens, ask the scout how he thinks he performed.The answer to that question has humbled me many times. I think you are doing OK. Maybe a few little stumbles, but as long as the each step is going forward, you will get there. Barry

I've studied this subject for years and watched our council member ship numbers, national numbers and just plain talked to a lot of people to understand the whole of the subject. First, it must be noted that the BSA loses more scouts during the first year troop scouts than any other age from Tigers to Venturing. At least it was that way until 5 years ago when I got out of that business. Next, National came out with a study around 1989 that showed that if scouts got to first class in their first year, they were likely to stay with the troop, aaaand, if the scout stayed with the troop a year, they were likely to stay several years. My own study is that getting to first class has little effect of boys staying in the program, rather they stay with an active program that also typically encourages scouts to advance. But as some here already said, many scouts who don't advance quickly stay on as well. So it stands that the program is what attracts boys, not advancement by itself. Aaaaaand my data and experience show that if a scouts is still active after summer camp, you will likely keep him several years. The reason National can't get their one year number to months is because they can only track yearly membership after rechartering, I tracked real time. One of my beefs with National's 1989 data is that it was the motivation for creating New Scout Patrols (NSP), Venture Patrols, and the First Class in the First year program. All fine in theory, but the reality is that those changes shifted much of the control from the boys to the adults. Boy independence for directing their destiny in the program is heart of the classic scout program. Those changes inadvertently change that. AND, after all that, the data 20 year later in 2009 showed that the rate of loss for first year troop scouts is about the same. In fact, I was told once that the first year loss rate has always been the highest loss of scouts and has been and on going problem. National was wrong that same age patrols and advancement were the solution to the new scout dropping problem. If you aren't willing to consider that, than you will struggle to have an open mind for solutions. So, what does it take to keep a new scout long enough that he buys into the program. Well after a lot of years of researching this, I and a few others concluded that the huge jump of going from an adult lead lifestyle all their life to a self independent decision making program where boys around your age are responsible for your health and safety is pretty scary. Very scary in fact. At first independence appeals to these new scouts who have been told by "adults" that they get to make their own decisions in the troop, but it doesn't take long to realize that living with your personal decisions, and more importantly having to live with your buddy decisions, may not be fun or in the scouts best interest. So, the scout starts looking for excuses to skip a meeting or two, then a campout and eventually several campouts. Summer camp is kind of the final straw. But interestingly enough scouts who attend summer camp are forced to endure the scouting lifestyle long enough that it starts to grow on them and they except it for the better things like, well like adventure. So, what can a troop do to get the scout from adult led life to wondering by himself in the darkness. The best programs I've seen use a New Scout ASM who works close with the Patrol Leaders or Troop Guides to show the scouts how the boy run system not only works, but is kind of cool. Also the ASM and the PL/TG work as a team to show the new scout that PL/TG are in control and the ASM is the assistant to the PL/TG. The ASM is also a safety valve for the new scout so that when he gets uncomfortable with the program and still doesn't trust the youth led style, they can seek out a friendly trusted adult. But, the ASM will always defer and work with the patrol leader with the intent of helping the new scout see and learn to trust that the PL truly is the person responsible for his safety and welfare and that they are very capable. Safety and welfare are typically a new scouts concerns. How many times have new scouts urinated on their tent in the middle of the night because the darkness of the woods terrified them to go any farther? The trick to the ASM/PL relationship is that the ASM needs to gradually step back as the new scout gets more comfortable. We found that the ASM was pretty much finished after two or three months. Now we can go back and forth on New Scout Patrols or friends or mixed age patrols, but they don't really matter if the troop isn't dealing with the problem of getting the new scout comfortable with making independent decisions and that his safety and welfare are good in the hands of the other scouts. That is a very basic take on the subject from what I have learned over the years. Barry

Which is why it is so very important to know where you are going; have a clear vision. As I said earlier, scout skills, camping, uniforms leadership and so on are not the main goals or visions. They are only the methods. That is the trap many adults get caught in and why they trend away from boy run. They simply don't know where they are going. An easy way to keep the priorities strait is give the scouts the responsiblities of working the Eight Methods (Ideals, patrols, outdoors, leadership, personal growth, adult association, advancement, and uniform) and the adults focused on the responsibilities of the Three Aims (fitness, citizenship and character). Boy run is the actions of the scout achieving the vision by developing habits of making moral and ethical decisions. Methods are proactive actions to reach the passive traits of the Aims. You stay in check by keeping the adults out of the scouts responsibilties of the methods. All adult choices or reactions should be based on character, fitness and citizenship (descision making). Easier said than done however. How does the SM stay in focus of the Aims when the scouts "chose" not to take responsibility of wearing the uniform? Or camping, or leadership? And for there to be growth, the scout has to make the concous effort to make the right decision. There is no growth if the authority tells the scout to do it differently. Man that's tough, which is why this scouting stuff and boy run isn't as simple as setting tents 100 yards apart. AND, adults have to develop the skill of working the program at the maturity and skill of the scouts. Does anyone really think a 12 year old SPL will perform equally with the experienced 16 year old SPL? It takes practice, but adults have to adapt as the maturity of the scouts change and they have to work it in the context of the Aims or vision. Not the methods. Sounds like you are getting it. Well done. Barry