Eagledad

Great ideas. I found that PR is limited by the imagination of the leaders. I always felt that Scouting For Food is one of our best PR opportunities because the scouts get to personally meet the public one house at a time. I know our Cub Scouts had a wonderful time going door to door asking for donations because they met (and saw) some of the most interesting people. And visa versa, most folks seem to enjoy meeting these very young boys doing service work. BUT, the Council wanted to do Scouting For Food even bigger and better, so they decided scouts should just leave bags at the door with instructions to fill the bags and leave them on the patio to be picked up on another arranged day. The process left the meeting of the scouts and public out. And honestly, less food was brought in as well. I manage to change that process in our district, but not council. Another idea is for the Troops to camp at their CO at least once a year. We did this back when I was a young scout and I remember the congregation of the CO church visiting the campsite after service and talking to the scouts. At first I thought it boring, but when an adult really wants to learn about your experience as a scout and see how you live in a tent, it turned out to be very cool. For those Troops that don't have COs with appropriate camp sites, local parks and fields. There are so many ways to bring the public to the program. I once presented the idea to do the District Camporee at the local park. The idea was for all the patrols to camp Friday night at their CO location, then pack up the next morning and back pack to the park stopping for skills competitions along the way. The whole town would be busy with scout skills activities and Scouts hiking around by patrol in their pack packing gear. All locals would be invited to the campfire presented at the football field with a band finishing the evening. One day maybe. As I said, it is just a matter of using the imagination. Barry

No, not for me. The older scouts are the key to a successful troop program. Prepubescent boys learn most of their behavior and skills by watching their older roll models. Taking the older scout roll models out of the program retards the younger scouts maturity and forces a more school room like approach for teaching younger scouts. It's much harder to be boy run because the adults have to step in more often to push the scouts out of the learning ruts. That being said, most Venturing Crews are started as a result of failed older scout programs in troops. The theory from these adults is that the boys will stay in the program longer for the adventure. The problem with that model is that the adults who failed to build a successful older scout troop program are the same adults who are going to build the Venturing Crew. They don't understand what motivates boys to succeed and they fail just as miserably with the crew as they did with the Troop. I believe that MattR has proven himself with a successful troop program and is capable of building a successful Crew. Barry

Wow!

And this is likely the result. 7 out of 10 Venture (Venturing) Crews fail in their first five years because the adults burn out. I've always looked at that statistic as a failure of the program overall. But maybe I need to think outside the box. Maybe disposable scouting is ok and should be supported for what it is. After all that five years might be a life changing experience for many of those scouts. Hmm, I will think on that. Barry

Please NJ, give me a list of these kids that were kicked out. Shesh, talk about revisionist history. As much as you want to paint the BSA as this bad program, it was one of the most inclusive organizations for kids. Ironically less kids today will participate than during the bad years you like to impress on everyone. Barry

That was a very good reply Eamonn and reflective of a typical well run district. One thing that I learned about districts is that they set the tone for how the units run their programs. We talk here a lot about units being left alone and doing their own thing if the district would just get out of the way. But, there are very few adults that can just step into running a unit successfully without some passing of knowledge. There has to be (should be) a known common approach to guiding units toward the common goal of success. Without even getting into the information given in each training course, you would be surprised how much influence the training committee has on unit programs. Truth is only 10 percent of units are independent enough to do their thing without some outside guidance. The training committee is the most common method for tying all units together as a district. All districts teach the same syllabuses, but all district training committees have their own specific personalities and expectations. I used to teach adults at Wood Badge that if they want to change common bad habits at a unit level, get on the district training committee. I know this by experience. Also, few people really respect the power of the Key 3 leadership. The personality of the Key 3 sets the general tone of how units will run their program. And, I personally believe that the District Commissioner is the key person of the influence. A good DC will handle the DE and use him to the Districts best advantage with the council, as well as guiding the District Committee Chairman to managing the district chairman. Plus, the DC has one other big advantage and that is the army of UCs to help tract unit programs and shape unit performance, OR NOT. Good or bad, I beleive in most cases that the quality of units in a district are the reflection of the District Commissioner. District Commissioners rarely get the credit they deserve (good or bad) because they work in the shadows of all the other chairs and leaders. To me it’s not a chicken or egg concept with District and units. The district is simply the higher level of expectation and quality performance of units. Without the district, the unit is only as good as their best leader. But the district has the responsibility of setting expectations and guiding the units to perform. They have the power if they just use it correctly. Barry

I took it that the can of worms was her church leadership. Barry

Hmm, so it's all on the boys. I don't know stosh, there are a lot of successful boy run troops around. Sometimes failure is the result of adult leaders just doing it wrong. Not all adults have what it takes to run a troop. Obviously nobody here can know how you really run your program, but even the best of us change and tune our programs to meet the boys needs. Barry

We had several LDS scouts in our troop because they didn't like the way the LDS troop was run. Barry

Sounds like your scout just wanted a break from responsibility. You have never agreed when I’ve said this before Stosh, but the nature of boys before puberty is to hang in groups and play games. Leadership takes them out of the group and away from the games even when they are leading in the games. It is not the same thing. Prepubescent boys are the opposite of loners, they need to be unidentifiable among the members of the group. I learned this from my Child Psychologist SM buddy. And after working with hundreds of scouts, I agree. These boys don't have the leadership mentality in them yet because instinctively they don't like to be separated from the group, especailly in a boy run group. From a nature perspective, being set apart exposes them to danger. In contemporary reality they don't get to play the games with their friends. Adults try to compensate these scouts with complements and rewards for the extra burden. That works for a while, but eventually the stress catches up and they rebel some way or another. I used to counsel adults of new troops with young scouts to shorten the scouts time in leadership so they get the experience without getting into burnout. It’s tough to say how long that is, but the boys will start to express their weariness of the responsibility in one way or another. I tell them, when a scout dreads coming to meetings, he has had enough. I understand your philosophy of letting scouts lead until they want to hand it off, but the maturity of this age makes it difficult for them to independently make these kinds of decisions and they certainly don’t want to disappoint the adults. The adults have to be conscious of the scouts experience and compensate until the scouts reach a maturity where they make the decisions on their own. Starting a new troop with young scouts is very hard. Adults HAVE TO LEARN more faster than the scouts to keep up. Barry

I think most SMs and SPLs would like to meet the scout and his family of who is making this type of request. I certainly would have a few questions for your family. One suggestion would be for your son to call and request a meeting between your family, the SM and SPL at their next troop meeting. This would provide the time and place for everyone to meet each other and see the troop in action at the same time. Barry

I always had good luck with Eagles because they know scout skills and have a general idea of the boys side of the program. They are much more patient with the boys because they know there is more to scouting than leading and advancement. Barry

Isn't it interesting that you didn't find the doctor comparison odd. I wasn't comparing anybody, I think most folks got that. I was giving examples to support the point that our reputation is just as much an influence to others as our actions. Some here are implying that whether or not someone's personal life is known or not, their image is only what they project personally in front of the group, which of course isn't true. I also have gay friends, relatives, and coworkers, I don't understand what your point was there. And I guess using the word evil was just an emotional vent to be condescending, but I'm confident you just didn't kick your kids out the door and wish them the best of luck. By the way, I'm about to be a grandpa, so I'm past guessing and experimenting with raising a family and into reflecting my observations and life experiences. Barry

You only have to see a gay pride parade to understand that is a sexual issue. Being identified as gay or homosexual is an automatic tag of sexuality. A SM who is a known KKK member doesn't have to say a word about racism to be publicly tagged a racist. A SM who is a doctor may never say a word about his private life, but because of his reputation, he would likely be called on first with an injury during a troop activity. Our reputations are very much part of role modelling. We risk our kids everyday by the roll models they interact with. As parents, it behooves us to protect our kids from being influenced by people who model behaviors we believe are dangerous. Just because we may not feel some behaviors are risky doesn't mean we shouldn't respect those parents who do. Barry

No, but many young adults go through times in their lives where they are very mixed up and might try things in their struggles. The community is supposed to protect our kids during these times by holding a generalized expectation for our youth, but we live in times now where anything goes. Didn't the Girls Scouts just admit a 6 year old cross dresser or something like that? My personal opinion is that situation is bad parenting and the community shouldn't role acceptance of it. Those who spend time in the bible will tell you that there is a lot said about the boundaries of sexuality because it is a very powerful force. It wouldn't take much for someone very confused about their life to be mislead. Barry

It's entertaining to me that this role modeling stuff seems to go right over your heads. Studies have shown that kids who come from divorced homes are more likely to divorce when they become adults. Kids who are around smokers are more likely to smoke and kids who come from homes of drug users are more likely to use drugs. Is that so surprising? Roll models do have an effect on those who observe them in one way of the other. One can't prevent our kids from being exposed to all people who exhibit dangerous behaviors, but most parents try. Now I can understand that many believe homosexuality is normal by birth, but to many others homosexual acts are not normal by birth and are very dangerous behaviors. Barry

Good post CP. Some of the Den leaders in our area ask the school if their den could raise and lower the flag for them before or after school. I've never watched them do it, but the Den leaders say the boys have a lot of fun. I imagine since there is no audience, they could raise and lower it several times. I know a few our dens over the years did perform for audiences in our community, but I can't recall where because I was never able to attend. While I was in the pack, two of our 2nd year Webelos were assigned to be responsible for the opening and closing ceremonies at each pack gathering. They had two 1st year Webelos assist and observe them so they would know what to do next year. Since each den got the chance to be the color guard at a Pack meeting, the Webelos responsibility was to teach them how to perform the ceremony and help the den where ever they needed. The scouts showed up one hour early so the Webelos could do the training. Always went pretty well and the parents loved taking pictures of their sons doing it. Every scout in the pack was part of the color guard at least once every year. Sometimes the Tigers were so small that it might take two of them to hold each flag. Our pack had a tradition that when the Color Guard leaders commanded "Audience Attention!", "Color Guard Attention!", the den doing the ceremony would shout their Den yell as they came to attention. It was fun to watch. Our troop took that idea and the color guard would come up with some new clever saying at each Troop meeting. It help make the ceremony more fun. Barry

From the handbook. 2e: Learn how to raise a US flag properly for an outdoor ceremony. 2f: Participate in an outdoor flag ceremony. 2g: With the help of another person, fold the flag. Notes: These three can be done together, or folding the flag can be done separately, indoors. If you meet at a place with a flagpole, like an school, ask permission to practice with their flag. You can have an outdoor flac ceremony with your Den, you don't need to wait for a Pack meeting. Barry

Our pack does at least four outdoor Pack meetings and campfires a year with a flag ceremony performed at each. Stretching that out a bit, our local baseball team usually has scout day where every boy who dresses in his uniform is given free admittance. Any scout from tiger to Venture will have exercised the actions stipulated in the requirement if they attend any one of those activities. I can easily think of more, but you understand what I'm saying. Is that what National had in mind for the Bear Scout's special experience? Who knows, but shouldn't their experience be a bit more more than the other scouts who are just attending? Just an aside, every den in our pack gets to participate with the color guard at least one meeting every year. Not because of any requirement, but just for the fun of it. Barry

I have never heard or seen of participating being interpreted as just being part of the audience. That to me is putting the focus on advancement and not the adventure of scouting. Scouting is supposed to be fun, don't shortchange that experience by short cutting advancement requirements. Instead be cleaver in finding opportunities to enhance experience. Give the boys memories of special moments that they can only get in their scouting program. Give them a reason to brag to their friends of what they are doing in their scouting program. Barry

If you really want to impress the scouts, call the SM to ask for the SPLs number so you can ask him if it is ok.

Ken was being helpful, he is not your enemy. What does the bible say about pride and humility? Barry

I've said before that its the adults who get flustered, not the scouts with pop in visits. This discussion kind of supports that. I'm not proposing that a troop risk showing its worst side and I'm not even really suggesting a troop show off its typical program. For me its just staying out of the way of our scouts' scheduled program. It is hard enough for the scouts to run an all year program with the normal issues that pop up, now we want to add "Webelos Day"? I had to laugh when stosh says he trains his scouts for surprise visits. He trains them to do what? What I think he really means is that his scouts are prepared for visitors anytime they visit with a set of procedures, same as ours. Our SPL has a policy to meet the Webs and parents at the door and introduce himself. Then he mixes the Webelos in with the Patrols. After the flag ceremony, he pulls the parents together to briefly explain the program and answer questions for about 5 minutes. Then the SM takes the parents and further explains the program and answer questions while the SPL goes off to his normal duties. It has very little interruption to the normal program and really none to the PLs. My point is that it is a lot easier for our scouts to not plan some kind of special Webelos visit program and just work with visitors when they pop in. Same goes with campouts, the program isn't going to change. The PLC just works the visitors in as best they can. We once had a den pop in on our rappelling campout. They couldn't rappel with our scouts because they missed all the training the previous month, but observing our scouts in actions was still exciting for them. And a couple of our adults knew of a nearby location where the Webelos could do some rock climbing for their level of maturity and experience. They left before dinner and joined our troop a month later. Again, no sweat off the scouts to cater to the Webelos because they ran their normal program. Barry

Well I guess our troop is the only one that uses kevlar. Everyone can carry a kevlar and it is not only easier to pickup, but it goes through the water easier. Yes, users have to be more careful, we but have never damaged one. Barry