Eagledad

These are a few of my basics guidelines I learned over the years for younger boys (13 and younger) that I kept in mind while I was SM. *Instinctively (until puberty) young scouts want adventure, not responsibility. Give them "BIG" doses of adventure, small doses of responsibility. *Young scouts learn 90% of their actions by observing actions of those around them. *Everything a young scout observes in the troop before puberty will be how he acts and behaves after puberty. *The quality of a troop is best measured from the actions of the older scouts. What I’m trying to say is focus on the quality of the older scouts to get the best quality younger scouts. Most troops seem to do the reverse and the result is boring programs focused around 1st Class scouts skills and scouts leaving the troop after puberty. That being said, the BSA looses more scouts in their first six months of joining a troop than any other age. Jumping from following adult instructions all their life to a program expecting them to make independent decisions is very scary for 10 year olds. So, new scouts do require some special attention for the first few months to develop trust in the older scouts and adults. As I said, it took us several years to “kind of†get a grasp of working new scouts. But we found that if you can keep your new scouts six months, you will likely have them for several years. Barry

When I was a scout in the 60/70s, each Troop voted for the two OA candidates minimum age 14. Only two, so it was always the two best scouts in the troop. And usually these scouts were the most active campers and leaders. Being voted as a candidate was considered more honorable than earning the Eagle because you were voted in by your peers. And if the candidate passed their ordeal ( that was not automatic back then) the scouts were considered the best of the best. Kind of Special Forces of scouting. Ask an Eagle scout who was in the OA back then and he will fill you will stories of the OA and hardly mention the Eagle. Today all the scouts are expected to be voted in, which takes the honor out of it. Barry

Very much so. We tried several different styles of bringing new scouts into the troop before we had enough experience to understand what works and why. You have heard me say several times before that the adults have to learn twice as much twice as fast to build a good boy run program that doesn't get in the boys way. Once you (the adults) understand that learning is part of the experience and that it is OK to change, it's starts to become more fun and less frustrating. I see your future and are going to enjoy your scouting experiences. You will love this scouting stuff. Barry

Obviously not because the rest of your post isn't BSA recommendations either. I know of a lot of Boy Run programs that work very well within the system. But, I also know a lot of scouters with chips on their shoulder and use blaming the BSA to prop themselves up to look taller in the room. The way your run your troop of five scouts is even an example of working within the BSA system. You can blame your parents, your ASMs and Unit commissioners. Even can even blame your district volunteers and council leadership, but that still doesn't mean the BSA policies and guidelines are the real source of your angst. Barry

I don't know the experiences or ages of your scouts, so take this in stride, but we never had a good TG that was younger than 14, and most of our 15 and older TGs were better than great. Puberty changes a person's perspective of life. Barry

You did it wrong, the BSA doesn't recommend using that method. Barry

Was the scout disruptive to be disruptive, or is struggling with the behavior? Behavior is hard to change and requires self motivation, that is human nature. The question is can the scout demonstrate a motivation to change? I can think back on several scouts that were disruptive because of their parents and the only ones who changed and stuck with the program where the ones whose parents made an effort to change. It's these boys who really needs scouts, but some fires are so big that the typical scouting program isn't enough to squash the pain. Those young men need something extra. Sometimes we have it, sometimes we don't. Barry

Yes, I think males are attracted to serrated edges like fish are attracted to shinny objects. LOL Barry

One subject of skills I see left out a lot but is very important for everyday scouting is woods tools. Most adults have never touch an axe or tree saw, much less use them. I read once that the tree saw is the number one cause of emergency room visits for scouts. Barry

I don't disagree with anything that you said. But for a moment imagine stosh and I presenting the same course side-by-side, is there any way National could write the syllabus so that the courses are presented identically? Don't presume I am defending National's courses. Because of my position at the time, I was asked to give some comments for the new soon to be NYLT course when it was being developed. They used ZERO of my suggestions and the course is opposite of what I think a Council Level JLT course should be. Barry

The course teachers in NYLT are youth, has that changed? Even our JLTC course directors were youth when I was the Council JLT Chair. Well 19 to 21 year old scouts who had Council and National level JLT training. In fact, I think that just about all JLT courses have youth teachers. Maybe that is the flaw in your council. Barry

Yes, because since we here on this forum all agree on the definition of "boy run", everyone else should at least agree on how to run a simple week long course. When the new Scoutmaster Specific course was presented by the Council 2000 for all the district training chairman to observe, it was read strait from the course material. I was told that the 8 hours was so boring, two district chairman had to be talked out of committing suicide. Lucky for me, I wasn't there, but I was responsible for presenting the new course in our district. As a result of the comments from those who did endure the hardship, I and other district trainers made some changes to the recommended presentation. Were we wrong? The BSA writes these courses for volunteers to present. Some volunteers are better at directing and presenting courses than others. Just like there are no two boy run troops that are a like, some councils do a better job presenting courses than others. And in many cases Council and district try to encourage consistently. But you only have to imagine the egos on this forum to understand the challenge of encouraging course directors to follow someones interpretation of the guidelines. But, consider this, because it is volunteer run organization, it will likely be different with the Chairman or course director. On a side note, when I was responsible for courses, I specifically recruited volunteers who were experienced presenters in their profession. I found that not only was the course more interesting for the participants, it was also presented more consistently. Barry

Just like two different math teachers teaching out of the same book, there will be some differences in presentation. When I was the Council JLT Chairman, we had our own council JLT program (JLTC) that was boy run based. It was very successful as far as satisfaction from the troops, but extremely difficult to present consistently because different course directors had differing opinions to how much independence participants should be given during the course. Even though I was the creator of the course, I dropped it for the new (new then) NYLT because it was much easier to for the average person to present consistently from year to year. My successors tell me NYLT is pretty easy to present when following the book. But I would be surprised if there wasn't any variance between councils just because nobody is a like. Barry

Um, I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. NYLT is ONE standardize program. Barry

The BSA looses more scouts during their first year (six months really) in the troop than any other age group. The reason, in so many words, was they didn't trust the boy run program. The shock of going from adult guidance for 11 years to boy guidance in just a few weeks is more than many boys can tolerate. THAT is the single biggest reason the New Boy Patrol was created. The problem stosh is there is a key step, or steps, missing between a new scouting walking in the door their first day and the advise of giving scouts the full responsibility for their program and activities. It doesn't do any good for adults looking for answers to leave that step out. Remember, you keep bragging that you have 40 something years as a scout leader. Many folks checking out this forum barely have four months. Hedgehog's and others here have some advice to helping the first day scout to a confident independent scout setting out on his dreams. Sadly the membership loss numbers for the first year scouts hasn't changed with the NSP, or at least as of ten years ago. So that means the NSP didn't approach fixing the problem. That makes sense to me because the problem for first year scouts is that they are very uncomfortable going from the orderly adult led lifestyle to the chaotic boy run lifestyle. Shocked is an appropriate word. Just because all your patrol mates are your same age friends doesn't make it less chaotic. New scouts need to be given some time to get weaned from their total trust of the adults to the trust of their youth leaders. And it's OK for the adults to be part of the success of a boy run program. Barry

Very impressive Hedge. Barry

It's not an across the board assumption, it's experience. And, if the scouts is asked what they want to do, it generally is either "I don't know" or something that isn't challenging. Then the adults are stuck trying to pry ideas out of them without coming off as their own idea. And that eventually works, but I will challenge most any troop leader that thinks they have that skill mastered in that their scouts will invariably think of ideas from the adult perspective. It's how nature works. And really, is that such a bad thing? Really, I think we push the theory of boy run out of the reach of normal adults. This whole discussion keeps hitting at the real chicken and the egg problem. To we practice skills to learn them, or do we learn them to practice? If we are looking for a magic ring of getting adults up to speed with scout skills there isn't any really. Amateur adults in a new troop will naturally struggle to grow and must reach out past their comfort zone for help. How they do that depends on the adults and the unit. But finding skilled adults outside the unit is an obvious approach that I rarely see taken. Is it pride? I don't know, that was how our troop expanded it's program. And I might even suggest a troop camping with an experienced troop to learn from observing. One other observation I have seen many times is that young scouts need a boost to grow beyond their comfort zone. Rarely have I seen an 11 year excited to camp in a strange dark woods without someone around they trust. It is the nature of survival. I remember our the first morning of our first campout with our 2nd year Webelos. We noticed a spot next to the tent that smelled of urine. We didn't make a big deal of it, but we learned that for young scouts, the path to the latrine in the middle of the night is a lot scarier than in the day. A lantern near the latrine makes a big difference. We also advise the PLs of new scouts to help them in anyway possible on their first camp out. Hedgehog is right, scouts need some confidence. Whether that comes from training, patrol leader, older scout, or adults within an ear shot away, they want something more than being told that it is all up to them. Barry

No we disagree. I think the parents need to be savy enough to find the right troop. Our best experiences are with the scouts whose parents are very involved. But even then a troop may find themselves challenged. We had one scout so mentally challenged that nobody really knew if he knew he was in the woods. Dad wasn't at the campout where his son walked off in the woods on a 35 degree rainy night while only in his underwear and socks. His parents were fully understanding when we suggested finding something different. I think what I find surprising by some of the comments is the lack of understanding and compassion for individual personalities of these boys and their families. Is it really compassionate to intimidate a troop to take on a scout under the guise of "It's discrimination and exclusion if you don't". Each boy with a handicap and learning disability is different and require additional skills and effort. Trying figure out if they fit in the program can be extremely challenging. After two years in the troop, the parents of one scout voluntarily pulled their autistic son from our troop because he couldn't camp. He had a terrible fear of water. Just a cup of water in front of him sent him in a terrified rage. We had no real problems with the scout because he only came to meetings. But I guess it must have been pretty frustrating for him and his parents when the troop spent much of the meeting preparing for normal out door activities. One of our scouts was fully deaf. He was easy because he could read lips. We had a mentally retarded scout who was near Eagle, but struggled with his temper when he reached puberty and became somewhat dangerous. I will never forget the look on his dad's face when he realized his son would not earn the Eagle. He is a Silver Beaver, so he understood scouting. He pulled his son, not us. Many of these scouts will live with their parents the rest of their lives. I think folks who believe any handicapped or learning disabled boy can be in boy scouts is nieve of the risk of camping in the woods. Many normal scouts have been lost in their own camps and died, not to mention hurt when not paying attention to rules and guidelines. And then there is the added task of taking care of these scouts. I don't know what it is, but something about learning disabled scouts needing a lot of sleep is very hard on patrol mates. Our Troop was once chastised by the summer camp staff because we arrived very late one morning to opening as a result of one handicapped scout who couldn't wake up. An adult finally had to baby sit him. They both missed breakfast. Not a huge hardship, but unless it has been experienced, a unit doesn't know what they are getting into. Handicapped and learning disabled scouts will double if not triple the work and responsibilities of adults and patrol mates. That is fine is you understand up front, but very stressful for the unexpected unit that doesn't have the experience of knowledge of working with these scouts. So I believe it is inappropriate to suggest that it is every adults duty to accept handicapped and learning disabled boys. Barry

No unit is a like and they shouldn’t be expected to be all things to all boys. Our troop has a lot of experience with handicapped and learning disabled scouts, so with respect I disagree with 2Eagles and stosh. The statement presumes that every boy no matter their mental or physical ability can handle all the activities of every unit program and that is simply not true. And, I learned they hard way that it isn’t safe either. In short, the limitations of any scout’s physical and mental abilities has to be balance with the units ability to provide safety and growth for the whole of the program. When the limitation of a scout limits or puts scouts at risk, then the program is not the best fit for that scout. And in some cases, the general scouting program as it is presented is not the right program either. A troop program should not have to lower its performance abilities simply for a boy with below average abilities. That is not to say that if the added responsibilities and effort of taking in a handicapped scout can indeed improve the program, then by all means. Welcoming scouts with lesser abilities should be a positive growth experience for everyone. However, there are limitations to each unit’s capabilities and I believe that it is the parent’s obligation to and find the best match for their situation. Not the other way around. We never turned away from the challenge of any new scout, especially with families where the parents where all in with helping. But as a result, I have learned that there is nothing harder than sitting down with parents and explaining that their son shouldn’t be in a typical scouting program. If you really have compassion for these young men, then be more concerned about finding the right fit instead of forcing units to take in boys that hurt the unit program. Barry

Our council has such a course, or had such a course (I haven't been involved lately). It required two four day weekends and the course only filled about 40 participants a year. It takes a lot of time for the staff and it it cost quite a bit as well because of the food and materials being used. Even after all that, participants are still just basically exposed to the skills with a better understanding of how and when to used them. As Eagle94 says, the only practical way of learning outdoor skills is doing outdoor skills repeatedly on monthly camp outs. Barry

Sounds like the program is too complicated for both the scouts and adults. Maybe you are jumping into the boy run thing in too deep and are struggling to keep your head above water. You handed the keys over to the scouts but they don't have the knowledge or experience to run it like the SM handbook. Neither do you really. You need to scale the program back to where the adults can at least feel there is continuity in the program structure. Help the PL plan and learn with along with him how to plan a simple activity. How about helping the PL plan a simple hike at the next troop meeting. Nothing big or complicated. Just the guys trying to get from point A to point B back to A. What does that require in planning? Start time, destination. Pretty simple. Make it fun, add pizza somewhere in there. Close with a SM minute and go home. The scouts aren't the problem, the adults are because they don't really know what they are doing. So when the program seems out of control, pull it back to where you can see the scouts "having fun" and growing from the activities. Older scouts are harder because they are set in their ways. But if you hold the right carrot in front of them (make it fun), they will make a turn. You want the scouts to lead (honestly lead) so the troop learns to respect youth authority, but you have the problem of scouts with no leadership experience. So become part of the team and learn together. Let the scouts know that you (the adults) don't really know what you are doing either, so you are going to learn together. Never take the lead, never stand in for the youth leader to direct their scouts. In our troop, adults never put up the sign first, we always wait for a scout to take control and then support him by responding with out sign. Let the scouts lead and let them struggle enough so that the you and the scout can discuss how to handle it better next time. Be cleaver, when things start to look bad, figure out how to help the scout without stepping in. As the scouts gain confidence in their leadership, the adults keep stepping back. You will find this actually works pretty fast, so get out of the way. One other thing I suggested to newer young troops was getting copies of the PL Handbook and SPL Handbook and work out of those books with the scouts instead of the SM Handbook. In fact, I gave new SMs these books and told them to put the SM Handbook away for awhile. When the troop runs into issues, have the SPL or lead PL pull out his Handbook while you pull out yours and come up with a solution together. Most troops can function successfully with just those two easy to read books. You are doing OK, you just got too much going on. It's more work than fun for the scouts right now. Make it fun, plan a simpler troop meeting that is more action than talk. Even games are better than lectures. Likewise plan fairly simple fun campouts. Surely there is a park nearby where the scouts can camp and ride bikes all day. Pretty easy. As they see how it was to plan and execute, let them take more lead on the next one, the fishing or hiking campout. Keep it simple simple simple for the next few months. Then push for them against their comfort zone. I know it seems hard right now. I try to tell adults that for boy run troops, adults have to work harder and learn faster than the scouts so that they don't get in the scouts way. Once you get in that habit, you will say to yourself "I love this scouting stuff". Barry

All these different ideals of the MB counselors approach and responsibility toward working with the scouts is the reason that the BSA says leave it up to the counselor. I think for the scout to get the most value out of the relationship with his counselor, the counselor has to want to get something out of the experience as well. And that desire is different for each of us. I guess that is why the guidelines are somewhat broad. Thank goodness. Barry

Your word, my response defined the difference. If it weren't for the difference, you would have no need to bring your apposing opinion.

Lots of good information from the others. There is no obvious easy answer. What is obvious, at least to me, is you are going to have to make some kind of dramatic change to last very long in the program. It is a wonderful and rewarding organization, I hope you find the place where your rewards are at least equal to your efforts. Barry