Eagledad

Sounds like the program is too complicated for both the scouts and adults. Maybe you are jumping into the boy run thing in too deep and are struggling to keep your head above water. You handed the keys over to the scouts but they don't have the knowledge or experience to run it like the SM handbook. Neither do you really. You need to scale the program back to where the adults can at least feel there is continuity in the program structure. Help the PL plan and learn with along with him how to plan a simple activity. How about helping the PL plan a simple hike at the next troop meeting. Nothing big or complicated. Just the guys trying to get from point A to point B back to A. What does that require in planning? Start time, destination. Pretty simple. Make it fun, add pizza somewhere in there. Close with a SM minute and go home. The scouts aren't the problem, the adults are because they don't really know what they are doing. So when the program seems out of control, pull it back to where you can see the scouts "having fun" and growing from the activities. Older scouts are harder because they are set in their ways. But if you hold the right carrot in front of them (make it fun), they will make a turn. You want the scouts to lead (honestly lead) so the troop learns to respect youth authority, but you have the problem of scouts with no leadership experience. So become part of the team and learn together. Let the scouts know that you (the adults) don't really know what you are doing either, so you are going to learn together. Never take the lead, never stand in for the youth leader to direct their scouts. In our troop, adults never put up the sign first, we always wait for a scout to take control and then support him by responding with out sign. Let the scouts lead and let them struggle enough so that the you and the scout can discuss how to handle it better next time. Be cleaver, when things start to look bad, figure out how to help the scout without stepping in. As the scouts gain confidence in their leadership, the adults keep stepping back. You will find this actually works pretty fast, so get out of the way. One other thing I suggested to newer young troops was getting copies of the PL Handbook and SPL Handbook and work out of those books with the scouts instead of the SM Handbook. In fact, I gave new SMs these books and told them to put the SM Handbook away for awhile. When the troop runs into issues, have the SPL or lead PL pull out his Handbook while you pull out yours and come up with a solution together. Most troops can function successfully with just those two easy to read books. You are doing OK, you just got too much going on. It's more work than fun for the scouts right now. Make it fun, plan a simpler troop meeting that is more action than talk. Even games are better than lectures. Likewise plan fairly simple fun campouts. Surely there is a park nearby where the scouts can camp and ride bikes all day. Pretty easy. As they see how it was to plan and execute, let them take more lead on the next one, the fishing or hiking campout. Keep it simple simple simple for the next few months. Then push for them against their comfort zone. I know it seems hard right now. I try to tell adults that for boy run troops, adults have to work harder and learn faster than the scouts so that they don't get in the scouts way. Once you get in that habit, you will say to yourself "I love this scouting stuff". Barry

All these different ideals of the MB counselors approach and responsibility toward working with the scouts is the reason that the BSA says leave it up to the counselor. I think for the scout to get the most value out of the relationship with his counselor, the counselor has to want to get something out of the experience as well. And that desire is different for each of us. I guess that is why the guidelines are somewhat broad. Thank goodness. Barry

Your word, my response defined the difference. If it weren't for the difference, you would have no need to bring your apposing opinion.

Lots of good information from the others. There is no obvious easy answer. What is obvious, at least to me, is you are going to have to make some kind of dramatic change to last very long in the program. It is a wonderful and rewarding organization, I hope you find the place where your rewards are at least equal to your efforts. Barry

Ah, then you should not have responded to my post. But even Fred's response supports the pretense of motivation in how discrimination is implied. Barry

Yes NJ, you seem to loose patience in discussions that don't quite go the way you like, but it is a friendly courteous dialogue and while your opinion that the words are wasted, I disagree. In the Bible, Patience is the first word for defining love and that is not by coincidence (1 Corinthians 13:4-7). We all find ourselves annoyed now and then, but how we respond is what sets the level of the discussion. As long as the discussion is within the boundaries of the scout law, Isn't that enough? Barry

Equivocation is your word. Motivation for intent is everything, Discrimination to serve or to self-serve has different desired affects. Morality disciplines the desire.

Wow! I am so very sorry. Shocked doesn't quite describe my feelings. Peace and healing for your family and friends. Barry

Just the opposite, morals drives the true motivation of discrimination to serve or self-serve. Barry

Everybody discriminates or the world would be in chaos. It's just a matter to what moral values (or lack there of) guides our discrimination choices. Barry

I don't agree and I'm a very anti MBU person. I think MBUs could be useful in showing Troops the correct way to manage the MB process and bring in a broader range of hard to find subjects for the scouts. My proposal for a MBU was have all the counselors come to a common location (high school) on Friday night and stand with a small display to show their subject. The scouts can wander around looking for subjects interesting to them and discuss with the counselor how they will present the subject. The scouts could then pick the MBs that were interesting to them, fill out the paperwork and approach their SM for a signature. The Scout then goes back with the approved card and signs up for class that can be presented the next three Saturdays in the same location. The counselor is not required to meet with the scouts at any or all of the three Saturdays, but it does make if convenient if they choose. This makes it easy for the district because they aren't required to hold any complicated records of who will be in what class when. Our district has this long complicated computer software that requires scouts to sign up for the MB long several weeks a head of the MBU day. The scouts are required to stay at the MBU all day even if they only take one class. My proposal treats the program more like a university where the scouts pick their MB, set up their own schedule with the counselor and only show up for the times they arrange with their counselor. All district has to do is send the troop the information of the date and time of the friday the counselor will be availilble for information and get a school to open their doors for three Saturdays. No complicated tracking software database required. AND, to make it more convenient, adult leadership training will go on the first Saturday. It seemed like a good idea to me, but my main motivation was for the Troops to see the process they are supposed to follow. I learned a long time ago that district sets the pattern that troops tend to follow. Which is why so many troops in our district have terrible advancement programs. Barry

Well we all have to learn these things. I honestly don't remember how my sons learned to pack. I'm sure I was somewhere in the system, but I never packed for them. However, I will never forget a scout who brought one pair of underwear to summer camp for the whole week. When we asked why he was always wearing his swimsuit, he broke down in tears admitting to his problem. When we got back home, I approached the father about it and he looked strait into my face to say, "we were just trying to follow your advice of letting scouts pack themselves". He was pretty angry with me and I learned a lesson of being a little more explicit when guiding parents to how they can help their son become more independent. Barry

It's not up to the SM, it's up to the counselor. However, if you are asking for some leniency in the requirements because the scout will never be mentally or physically capable of passing a requirement, then contact the District Commissioner and ask for some guidance. They always came through for us. You want these kinds of decisions made by higher official levels so it doesn't come to bite you at the Eagle review. Barry

300 ft. between the adults and patrols solved that for us. We don't actually walk off 300 ft., but we try to get out of sight and sound from the scouts. I didn't realize how far that was until a patrol leader woke me up 3:00 one morning to tell me about a sick scout. I told him I would meet him there after I got dressed. It was a moonless night in the dense woods and I like to never found their campsite. Maybe we should consider 250ft.. (: Barry

Ah the warm memories that this thread brings back to me. That was the good old days of scouting. That being said, I don't miss the canvas tents. They were heavy, smelly and dried really slow. They required good staking to remain upright (many rainy nights of restaking the tent) and a person tended to find themselves outside under the stars because they slipped under the tent went set up on slopes. And there was no way of keeping gear dry as the rain flowed through the tent. We trenched around the tent, but what a mess. Yep, not a lot of fond memories of the old tents compared to todays tents. The Explorer style tents don't do as well in Oklahoma as dome style tents because they are like sails in the wind and tear down easily. Most troops while I was a scout used the Overnighter (number 4 on Tawhawk's catalog) scout tent or the Backer tent (Number 5) because they resisted the wind better. I agree with the sleeves of dome tents. We learned over the years to find backpacking tents that only use hooks instead of sleeves so that they can be set up at night in the rain much faster. In fact, setting up a tent blind folded is something the scouts would practice before a trek. Barry

I didn't include the resqman's whole post, but he pretty much described our troop. However, I disagree with the tone of the discussion that the main struggle for adventure in scouting is with parents, or especially with the helicopter parents. The issue that affects the BSA is lack of adults with the experience to bring adventure into their program. We average 4 to 6 high adventure crews a year and many of our weekend campouts include biking, rappelling, shooting sports, and water sports. We rarely have trouble with parents balking or hesitating to send their sons because we show them our expertise and approaches to safety. The problem with adventure in the boy scouts is finding adults with the expertise and knowledge of safety. As has been pointed out before, less than 75% (my guess is a lot more) of adults joining the program don't have much, if any, scouting or camping experience as a youth. Even a simple car camp out can be a challenge for many young troops. Honestly the BSA isn't that far from the Girls Scouts program today simply because we don't have adults comfortable in the woods. Philmont is popular because they know how to guide these kinds of troops through a memorable safe high adventure experience. Our culture certainly is over protecting our children and it is bleeding into the scouting program. But overall if the troop is willing and makes the effort to learn the skills required for safe outdoor activities, most parents will go a long with it. In fact, I found that they are quite proud of the skills their sons learn from the program. It is interesting to note that most adults are terrified at even the thought of their kids using an axe, and yet they don't have too much concern with simple innocent appearing tree saws that account for about 70% of woods tool injuries. Think about it for a moment, for those of you who didn't have much experience in the woods during your youth, what did you bring to the program? How did you get up to speed enough that you could take a group of our sons on a simple camp out? This is the challenge of the future BSA. Barry

Probably right, my apologies to all. Barry

I never have cared much for the game because my observation is about 1 out of 10 people really get much from it. From my perspective, it's the really competitive people who get sucked in and drive others to win it all. And they are usually the ones who are defensive when they figure out they got dooped, or so they think at first. It takes them a while to settle down enough to move on. Our council is pretty smart in that we have team who leads this game for all the Wood Badges. They are pretty good at administering the game properly and explaining the meaning after. I can't remember the details (because I'm old), but the old Wood Badge course had something like this where an adult had to move to another Patrol for some reason. The intent was teaching the participants what it is like for a new scout to join a patrol. It had the same kind of controversy and resistance. Barry

It is also for the boys and sometimes our passion for the program and to do our best gets in the way of what is best for the boys. Those of us who have worked with a lot of volunteers very much appreciate the time and effort you are giving to the program. However, doing your best also means living the Scout Oath and Law. You do a disservice to yourself lashing out at those on the forum who have many many years experience working with both adults and scouts. If you don't like the answers to your question, you only need to respond with a thank you for your time. Of course there is so much here we can't know because we aren't personal to the situation, but based on your words, the irony here is that your personality and the den leader's personality appear much the same. I teach in our adult leader courses that adults have to be humble to become good scout leaders. I've never met a scout leader who was never wrong. I hope your situation works out for the best of everyone. Keep us informed. YIS Barry

Litigation risk aside, outdoor adventure when I was a kid is different than now. "It's a lot riskier". When I was a scout, there weren't climbing walls or repelling towers. The most risky activity I ever did in a troop was back packing. I don't ever remember being scared on a scouting activity until I tried repelling as a Scout Leader. Back packing in my scouting youth is pretty tamed compared with many of today's activities. Oh there where scouts who did climbing and repelling and stuff, but they were in Explorer Posts. I even belong in a Scuba Explorer Post at age 16. I was talking to our Summer Camp Director several years ago. He was brought in to help reverse the trend of troops going to other counsels for summer camp. He said that most camps they are competing with have horses and mountain bikes. He said, "Barry, the insurance the counsel has to get for mountain biking alone is triple the cost of any other activity in our camp including shooting sports". It's not just the helicopter parenting culture that the BSA is competing with, it is also the higher expectation of riskier adventure. Compared to some YMCA summer camp activities, BSA camps are pretty low energy. Barry

I agree with Stosh. I've watched it over and over through the years. But there is other contributions to the problem along with the obvious conflicting programs that stosh is talking about. Most troops start a Crew to compensate for a weak older scout program and the irony is that the adults who lack the ability to develop a quality older scout troop program also lack the ability to develop a successful Crew program. That is why 7 out of 10 Crews fail in there first five years. As a district committee member, I was approached by several troops to help them start a crew so they could hold on to their older scouts. I never told them not to start one, but I always first started by working on their older scout program. I told them the success of a scout troop is measured by the quality of the older scouts. I also blame National on this because they are encouraging counsels to create Crews to help improve older youth numbers and the easiest place to start are troops. Our troop was approached because we had the largest group of 14 and older scouts in the state at the time. The DE told me that it was only natural for us to create a crew because we knew how to work with older scouts. I told him that the reason our older scout program was so successful is because of the troop program and splitting the scouts would defeat the intent and purpose of our program. And that is not to say our scouts didn't also belong with other Crews, a few of them did because we do have some pretty cool crews in our area. But that is not the same as creating a new program within your program. Barry

Typically when these types of adults get in a troop, they either shape up, or are shipped out. Most troops don't put up with it. I know of one such den leader that was in three different troops in three years before she finally just quit the BSA (our troop was her first). Barry

Well as they say, you don't know what you don't know. Big tent or little tents? Coleman stove or single burner? Or even fire. Back packs or duffle bags? Camp boxes or Tupperware tubs? Trailer of trunks? Lanterns or moon light? Borrow as much gear as you can and test it out. There some fun adventure in that and it will give the troop the experience to make informed decisions. Barry

BEEN THERE DONE THAT, so I'm giving an opinion based from my experience. I agree this is a DE level situation. However, I think you are too close to the 2nd Web den leader's business. Let her run her den her way and be done with her. She knows the program guidelines and rules. So unless you see some kind of risk of harm, let her run her den the way she interprets those guidelines and don't waste a second thought. As for the two new scouts, explain the options (not your personal feelings) to the parents and let them choose the direction they want to go and don't waste a second thought with them either. Trust me there are so many other aspects of the Cub program that need your attention. I know how close we get to the program when we put so much of our time and effort into it. It hurts when adults seem to pridefully defy our guidance. But you should consider that maybe you are part of the problem. Remember, the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. Let her go. It takes practice separating our emotions from the performance of those we think we are responsible for. But, there is a lot of leeway in how a Den leader can run the den and sometimes one of us has to set our pride aside for the good of the program and the scouts. It appears the den leader isn't going to back down. She may in fact be reacting to you with obstinance. She is not worth the sleepless nights. And remember, you can sit back with popcorn after she crosses over to the troop and how the Troop leaders react to her when she tries this with them. Barry

As a MB counselor, I won't accept any scout without first seeing a signed card so that I know that somebody knows this scout is working with me. I don't think that was the original intent of the signature, but I wouldn't be surprised if National likes having the paper trail for that purpose. The leading source of abuse complaints 20 or so years ago were merit badge counselors. That signature tells the counselor that somebody knows. Of course that is just a huge guess on my part, but I won't accept a scout with a blank card. Barry