Eagledad

First let me just say that a lot of adults get really wound up about elections when they are just a smiple leadership selection process. There are some Scoutmasters who claim the difference between a success and failure of their program starts with the elections. I believe that if the youth leader selection process is a make or break in any troop program, the adults need additional training in youth leadership development. Selecting leaders is such a small part of the leadership development part of program that it has almost NO impact to the performance of growth scouts gain from their leadership experience. It really doesn't matter how your scouts select each other so long as they are truly selecting the leaders instead of the adults. THE REAL WORK of developing boys into real leaders starts after the selection process, so just get it over with. Whether little Bobby got elected ASPL or appointed by the SPL won't matter two weeks later if he doesn't take the responsibility seriously. Every troop has a different process for selecting leaders and in the end the real meat of what the scouts get out of the leadership depends on the approach and guidance of the developing part of the program. I believe the adults should not waste their time or energy in the scouts' leadership selection process. I instead suggest to the scouts that they refer to their SPL and PL Handbooks for guidance. Honestly boys have been electing leaders for one thing or another since the first grade. They can handle it pretty easily when the adults stay out of it. For some reason adults make the process much harder. As I said, the real work for adults is developing growth in those scouts, so save your energy for that part of their program. Barry

No, you weren't lucky. You work long and hard giving a consistent message and eventually the scouts takes a giant step forward in maturity. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

We didn't have an adult patrol per se, but we did have a fun group. To control the adults somewhat and keep them out of the patrols way, we had an older scout work kind of as their patrol leader. Since adults don't attend PLC meetings, the adult patrol older scout attended the meetings and then reported the information to the adults. The scout was also their trainer in whatever skills the SM felt the adults needed at that time. I don't think the present SM uses a scout for the adults now because his personality is a little more hands on, but it worked very well for me and really brought home the boy run aspect of the program to the adults. Barry

"My side of the mountain". 1960s movie about a teenager surviving a long northern US winter in a hollowed out tree. I haven't seen it in years, but it was a Boy Scout favorite in the 70s. Barry

This is the best advice in the thread. The great Scoutmasters have a vision and are very humble. The vision keeps them going on the same course in the midst of chaos. And humility prevents them from changing course just to save their pride. Don't sway on your vision and freely admit your mistakes. Barry

one thing I found in common with the better Scoutmasters is they read a lot from the founders of scouting. Powell, Hillcourt and so forth. Barry

Ah, I see. So the regulations are different for adults than kids. Barry

I don't have a memory of any situations of young ASMs who were scouts in our troop, but I found young adults who were not scouts in or troop tended to struggle defining their role as an ASM. Either they fell in to being too much of a scout, or they over reacted in being an adult. They feel more at ease with the scouts, but know it's the adults they have to please. I left them alone as much as I could for the first six months so they could get a feel for the troop and how the adults worked with the program, then I started pulling them into the adult side; more to develop maturity than anything. Also, my teacher son who is a new father reminded me the other day that working with kids takes on a whole different perspective after becoming a parent. He reminded my of one of our Eagle scouts who found himself to be a father at 19. He was a completely different person the year before. We parent leaders need to understand and respect that paradigm. Barry

This topic reminded me of a something that happened at our son's middle school. In celebration of the school year coming to an end, a few students broke into the school to vandalize the hallways with trash, paint, and animal urine and feces. The boys were identified and expelled for the last three days of the year. Feeling that the boys were actually rewarded instead of given a chance to confront and reconcile for their actions, I called the principle and suggested she "make" the boys clean up the mess. Her short response was that it wasn't safe for children to be in that environment. I was so dumbstruck that I didn't think to ask her of these childrens' health as they distributed the foulness through the hallways. We reap what we sew. The same exact thing happened again at the nearby high school two years later. Those student were caught in the act and the police were called. Personally I feel that personal involvement of cleaning up their mess would have a more intense impact on their reaction to their misdeed than a scolding by the local authority. But I didn't waste my time offering the opinion. Barry

As I said, for me zero tolerance is action based without empathy. That being said, for growth to take place, the perpetrator at some point has to initiate actions of acceptance for the misdeed and repentance for the harm caused. MattR never shut the door, the scout in his pride chose not to respect the harm he caused. I supposed we could beg and plead for some hint of regret or guilt in front of the victims, but what's the point if he doesn't mean it? We can only hope that time wears him down to see the light somewhere in his future. Barry

I will take that bet. I'm reminded of the 15 or so years of posters coming and going on this forum who proclaimed that allowing gay scouts into the program would boost membership numbers significantly, even though evidence of other North American Scouting programs making the same membership changed showed otherwise. After the beating the BSA took that led to the homosexual policy changes, National has no stomach at the moment to push for further major membership policy changes. They would not only be fighting an uphill battle against traditionalist (donations), the GSUSA would bring out the big guns against the BSA as well. Barry

Just like everything else in the program, what a scout gets out of the Advancement Method is based largely from the vision and methods the adults use to guide the program. The challenge for adults is that each scout has a different vision of himself as a scout. Just about all the discussions on this forum deal with how we balance each individual boy's dream of scouting along with the adults' goals what they want the scouts to get out of the program. Guiding a program of different personalities is complicated and challenging. Working with the computer geek nerdy kid who hates camping along side the outdoorsy super camper kid requires: a lot of patience, thinking out of the box, and a great deal of humility. Both those scouts eventually earned their Eagle while I was a Scoutmaster, but the geeky scout never learned to enjoy camping and the super camper only tolerated a minimum requirement of advancement bureaucracy. The answer to the OPs question is as easy or complicated as each scouts personality. Eagle94's and Qwazse's gave some good suggestions. Barry

A positive action of growth in my mind would have started admitting remorse, not finding the next step to getting the Eagle. Barry

In my mind, zero tolerance is acting on bad behavior without empathy. I believe MattR was very empathetic when he guided the scout toward what he felt was the best course of growth in the circumstances. MattR was trying to teach a life lesson and I would have reacted very much the same. At some point in each person's life, they have to be treated as adults. I believe a 17 year old boy is no longer a boy, he is a man. MattR's scout was lucky because MattR gave him an opportunity to act humbly and start a process of healing for him and those who suffered from his act. Instead the young man chose the path of pride and will suffer for a long time. Some here say kids today are same as yesterday, but those same posters also whine about helicopter parents. You can't have one without the other. My observation of young adults today is their lack of humility. Pride is the antonym of humility, and without humility, humans are stuck wallowing in an egocentric world. At some point, our sons and daughters have to make adult decisions and learn to react to those decisions with outward virtuous actions . I once met a teacher who preached to his parent friends over and over that we have to put our kids in as many decision making situations that we can so they they will practice and developed into decision making experts by they time they are adults. That is exactly what the Scouting program is about and why I am so passionate about it. But Scouting can't do it all, our community is supposed to guide our young people as well. Barry

I have always felt that programs that make a people feel good about themselves are proud to wear the uniform. In fact, if I saw a scout who was dressed differently than he typically dressed, I learned over the years he might be having a bad day. I got in the habit of asking those scouts if everything was alright and more often than not, something was going on at home. Once was a scout who just found out his parents were divorcing. Another scout was being bullied at school. The uniform is a great indicator of how a scout feels about himself. Barry

Scouting must be local because a lot of lines were crossed in that list around here. Barry

It's probably some of that, but our adults don't give direction in wearing a uniform, they help the scouts understand their decision making process. Our scouts are guided to use the Scout Handbook for direction of uniforming. If they aren't following the handbook, I would suggest they are making a wrong decision. While I do believe some of what you say is part of their reasoning, I found that boy run adult leaders tend to work with scouts individually and in more as a passive counselor style. Adults in less boy run troops tend to proactively counsel scouts more directly and in groups. Example is telling an assembled troop how to properly dress for meetings. Adults who are more directive aren't looking for opportunities to guide a scout in their decision process, they are looking for a sharp looking troop. Now, I would agree that a BOR could be a gray area because it is not in the handbook. I would then ask the scout's opinion on the matter. I might have an opinion myself, but I certainly would give effort to understanding the scout's opinion if it is different from mine because that wouldn't be the first time a scout has changed my opinion. Barry

I enjoy these discussions if for nothing more than pointing out that over the years I have found that uniforming is the most difficult Method for the adults to have a consensus in using it as a tool for developing character, fitness and citizenship. I have also observed over the years that the more boy run a patrol functions, the less uniformed they appear to outsiders. Can someone explain that? I usually leave these discussions pointing out that the Scout Handbook gives the scout clear guidance on when, where and how to wear the uniform. But, I admit I haven't reviewed the last couple of revisions. Are those guidelines still in todays Scout Handbook? And if they are, then why do we adults have such a tough time with this Method? Barry

Yes, I wasn't sure where NJ was going with his statement. Humans base most of their decisions from ideology, and I agree sometimes those choices become political. The gay scouts discussion is a ideological discussion that just happens to be political at this time in our cultural history. What is interesting is that we generally don't change our ideals, but politics many times forces changes of our habits and actions relating to those ideals. I kind of feel like maybe that is what is going on here with the flag ceremony. Barry

I come from the generation of my PL picking me up on the way to a Patrol meeting. For an eleven year old, that was so cool. Barry

Start by asking the scout. Barry

I agree, being an Engineer, I like to be as factual as possible. Here is one of many sources to the generalization of perception. This is just one of many sources where the facts, in theory, point to a reasonable argument, and why the cloud will always hang low on the topic. http://hotair.com/archives/2016/11/07/video-obama-encouraging-illegal-immigrants-vote/ Barry

I'm not sure I understand NJ, didn't the OP ask for opinions from the list? As long as the replies are courteous and kind, isn't a discussion of the OPs request an appropriate use of the forum? Help us here. Barry

What a bizarre discussion. I can honestly say I'm shocked adult Scout leaders are having trouble with this. I'm with the others here in missing the old days when political correctness didn't get in the way of scouting. Around here Scouting is considered part of our community. Community service isn't about hours, but about participation. Barry

My observation over the years is that adults struggle the most with the "Uniform" method more than any other of the Eight Methods because they don't know how to apply it for growth within the intent of Character, fitness and citizenship. But, as a teacher of teachers, I also point out that how the Uniform method is applied has important value for the Scouts' growth. Adults must be just as careful pushing the "minimum" uniform because their scouts will miss out on some of those growing opportunities. Barry