Eagledad

History also favored the Patriots before the game started. Barry

This was said many many times just on this forum about the gays and that didn't happen. I can only suggest a look at the history of youth scouting organizations in North America that made significant membership policy changes. None have recovered to the numbers they had before the changes. Last I heard a couple years ago, the Canadian scouts was still around 60% after 20 years. If folks are going to argue for adding girls, they might be better off arguing the addition of girls would improve the quality of the program. At least then no hard data could be found to prove the theory wrong. Barry

Good for you. I relish the glass half full. Reading data and applying it is what I do for a living. And I'm pretty good at it. Still, once in a while incomprehensive optimism balances historical evidence. Barry

After working this general area of scouting for so many years, I learned that experience (good or bad) has the most impact for how adults run a unit. It's nice that National supports Patrol Method, but as simple as the method appears in print, in reality requires a great deal of discipline to direct. Those who have the experience jump into patrol method without much thought. Those who don't have the experience require proof to even trust it. And they typically don't have the patience to wait for the proof. I have watched this over and over through the years, even on the forums. Today is as good as patrol method boy run scouting will ever get. Barry

Correct, but it more than doubled the number of scouters without experience which almost overnight dramatically affected the dynamics of the troop program. So much so that new adult training courses replaced the old courses in 2000. I admit, I found it ironic that one of the main pro patrol method forum members here also used the women leaders introduction as an example that not much of the program was affected. Truth is that adding women (non-experienced adults leaders) had a huge negative affect on patrol method. And as you pointed out (as I have for several years), it will never get better. I guess we could look at admitting any and all youth as acceptable because the program will never get back to what it was, but I'm an idealist. I will hold out to the end. It does seem we are getting close. But adding girls will be the last straw for me. Barry

We are supposed to question God. God creates all of us to glorify Him. God creates us with strengths and weaknesses to guide us as we grow toward Him. Our weaknesses challenge us to grow in Gods light, and clear our vision toward our strengths. Now that we got that out of the way, I personally don't feel that scripture is the higher issue here except that some are motivated by ideals instead of consideration of the youth. I feel the intellectual challenges are pragmatic in the applications and results of both the scout and volunteers. My concerns in the order of priority: 1. Health of the scout. Mental stability of children and young teens varies a lot from their environment and capacity. Many youth have taken a path of sexuality because they didn't feel that had a choice at the time. As I said earlier, the BSA has chosen to put volunteers in a situation where they may be encouraging the scout toward more instability, not less. 2. The BSA Mission and Vision. I have been doing this scouting stuff long enough to know that changes such as these rarely help the volunteers ability to develop a program that helps boys grow toward being better ethical and moral decision makers. Someone even mentioned the addition of adding women leaders. The history of changes in the troop program and adult training pretty clearly show how adding women leaders has made reaching the Mission and Vision more challenging. And for those who like to turn words around to distract discussions, it has little to do with the gender, but more to do with the lack of experience. 3. Adding procedures that require additional volunteers and special accommodations usually restricts patrol method. I have worked with a lot of different types of mental challenges and they do take away from the overall advantages of a patrol method program. For me, the troop program is about guiding boys to develop habits of making decisions based from the virtues of the Oath and Law. Any changes that take away from that goal should not be considered. Barry

Yep, this exactly the problem. Barry

This equates morality to nothing. It's anti God and is more destructive to the culture than any other attack because society looses all baseline of moral integrity. When man starts basing good and evil from the fickle policies of popularity of the moment, the culture can't servive because the demographic with the least voice loose faith in its leaders. This really hit home for me as I read about the organizers of the women's march. The organizers drew a line that feminism is based (yes based) on the liberation that mothers can kill their preborn sons and daughters without fear of government retribution. Imagine a political party hinging its success of power of mothers killing their children as being on the "right" side. The Democratic Party accepted the feminist leaders throwing out the pro-life feminist and that was than. No debate, no "let's think this out", the party accepted the switch from pro choice to pro abortion. Our culture has come to embrace the acceptable idea of moms against their children. I guess to some the trans gender thing is obvious when scaling it down to a personal issue of what is best for that one youth. But to discount all other opinions on an egotistical idea that I'm right and your wrong places man against man without any consideration of an agreement. Ego against ego only forces a following of the guy with the biggest stick. As we have watched our leaders over the past 10 years, picking the stick that will beat our neighbor down in submission isn't working. Barry

No, some readers just might not have thought in that direction. Barry

I think the local option will always have some risk for law suits. Scouting is becoming a hassle for COs. Barry

I would like to say that keeping older scouts is a complicated problem, but part of the complexity is what the adults presume Scouts of this age want or need from the program. At the time I was a leader in our troop, it grew to 100 scouts strong with almost 50% of them 14 and older. Of those 50 scouts, only about 15 of them would tell you they wanted more adventure. And while a few of the scouts might say they didn't enjoy teaching, it wasn't about teaching the younger scouts they didn't like, it was just teaching in general. And I'm sure older scouts as well as adults don't like baby sitting younger scouts. But they very much enjoy being role models to the younger scouts. They are great at it. What attracted older scouts to our troop is that the program respected their maturity as adults. They we allowed, actually expected, to make decisions that determined how the unit should be run. They we given the respect of adults. It is as simple as that. The struggle in our program is the adults learning how to mold the program up to that mature level. It's not easy and the adults will make a lot, A LOT of mistakes getting there. But if the adults embrace the older scouts as part of the troop team in developing that program, the program will grow and the scouts will stay as long as they can because they like the kind of person they have become with they go there. The quality of a Troop as a whole is reflective of the older scouts (role models). If the adults want a quality young scout program, they have to start with the oldest scouts first. Just ask the scouters in this discussion who say their older scouts are staying and aging out of their program. I'm sure they will pretty much agree. Barry

Mmmm, that is a bit one sided, isn't it. We already know from members on this forum that families have left the BSA as a result of this decision. If going back meant gaining more members than it looses, then it's worth considering. Of course membership is not my reasoning for being against the decision. I think the BSA is asking unit members to risk pushing these youth further into mental illness. Barry

No, what I meant was that I have been scolded by the moderators for using "ignorance" in another discussions because it was misinterpreted as unscout like. Barry

I already had this discussion with the mods and they won't buy it. Barry

There is plenty of evidence that shows that genders at this age learn better in a single gender atmosphere. We've all heard, so I won't go into details. As I said, the liberal reasoning is equality through mediocrity. I don't do mediocrity or political correctness. You should be honest with us as well as yourself, either you want to really develop character, or you want a camping program. Barry

Get real! When I was a scout and a Scoutmaster, patrols could camp without adults. They can't anymore. That is huge! Watching the Canadian Scouts go through their changes and listening and participating in discussions on scouting forums the past years, I am convinced that liberals view scouting as nothing more than a "camping club". The mission and vision statement are just noble words of distant dreams. Liberals believe in equality over personal ambition through the path of mediocrity. Changing the program so that boys can no longer have the independence to experiment with their decisions takes away the advantage that Boy Scouting has over all other youth programs. I kind of saw it when I joined as a scouter in the early 90s. New Scout Patrols (NSP) and First Class in the First Year (FCFY) forces scouts through a process of growth controlled outside of the their patrol. I can't think National did it intentionally (maybe they did, mediocrity), but they turned the growth process 180 degrees. Instead pushing scouts to act out toward their ambitions using the tools of leadership, patrol method, adventure and advancement, they are now expected to react to the tasks given them. The process of growing by making decisions was taken away. The more National makes little changes that force boys out of the arena of making personal decisions, the more the process of growth is reduced. As a result, after school camping clubs. My passion for the program is guiding boys to become citizens of character and leaders of integrity. Those aren't just words to me, I live it. I'll not waste my time just teaching kids how to set up a tent. Barry

No, it's just indicative of the way the program is ran. The troop I was speaking about has averaged between 150 to 180 scouts ever since I can remember. Barry

Only once. Barry

Rare! Do you not understand female biology? I wasn't even thinking a long these lines, but TT's post reminded me of a discussion I had with my wife. She had her first period during her first (and last) Girl Scout summer camp. She was very embarrassed and remembers that camp being the worst week of her life. She quit scouts as soon as she got home. And that was at a camp with just girls and women. Imagine that same experience at a BOY Scout camp. She'd kill me if she knew I........ Barry

Somebody or somebodies sued. He didn't say who.

When I was a Scoutmaster, I directed the program so that if the patrol went on a campout in the woods without adults, the patrol would have the exact same experience they have with adults 100 yards away. I don't believe in "boys will be boys", I believe in developing the discipline of living by the Oath and Law. My approach may or may not appear realistic to many leaders, but it worked for me. However, I can understand the concern. I was talking to a professional once who told me that the high level professionals had some concerns about mixing genders at the older ages. I'm not really familiar with the camping policies of Crews today, but he did told me that there are a few scouting babies in the 90's from Crew outings and it cost the BSA dearly. He refuse to give any details other than the crews were camping without adults. So with all due respect, when I hear someone from another country tell us that it's not a big deal and the adults are just over reacting, I don't believe we are getting the whole story. Our program is turning into an after school program that has to be heavily monitored by adults. With these new requirements on sexuality at all ages, how could it not! Barry

Politics and pragmatism rarely go hand in hand. Barry

Volunteers at the district level become more familiar with the different programs NJ, so they can identify Eagle Mill type troops. Many (more than you would think) of these troops market their programs to prospecting families with organized schedules that show how their son can earn Eagle by age 14. The troop isn't purposely pushing the scouts out after the Eagle, but the programs typically don't have the maturity that encourages older scouts to stay on. So they build a Venturing Crew with an advanced adventure program to draw the older scouts. But don't assume all older scouts jump in, these crews typically keep less than 25 percent of the exiting Eagles. I used to criticize Eagle driven programs while I was a patrol method Scoutmaster because I couldn't see the growth in their programs. But when I worked with them at the district level, I found that they do serve a purpose for many families who would otherwise not choose scouting for their son. They are usually loyal camping programs and camping does develop a lot maturity in a boy. I now refer to these programs as another choice. As for wondering if these young men are deserving of the Eagle, well there isn't a single two Scoutmasters on this forum that can agree on what defines the Eagle. We Scoutmasters have egos and rarely does one ego agree with another. Barry

There are a few adult awards that require a nomination. My advise to adults inquiring about these awards is that the award seeks the adult, not the other way around. I have seen adults get overly wrapped up in trying to earn the award and loose sight of why they were volunteering in the first place. Typically hard work is recognized one way of the other. To be nominated is quite an honor. If I remember right, adults who earned the religious knot as a scout can wear that knot on their adult uniform. Kind of cool really. Barry

Yes, it's typical of troops that specialize in streamlining their programs toward making Eagles (Eagle Mills). 14 to 15 are generally the Eagle Mills age of exodus. We have an Eagle Mill in our district that averages about 180 Scouts. Imagine a troop of 180 scouts where the oldest scouts are 15. On the other side though, many of these troops have Venture Crew programs to keep the boys in the program. They are typically heavily adult run (even more than the troop), but some of the crews are successful. Successful being they don't fold inside 5 years. As much as I personally detest these adult run programs, they do have a place in the BSA. There are a large number of families that want this style of a program and the boys do get a pretty good Boy Scout experience. It's not a boy run experience of being accountable for independent decisions. But they are exposed to monthly camping and practicing first class skills. Eagle Mills are better than no scouting at all. Barry