Eagledad

As a Scoutmaster, I struggled with adult training because I believe most students don't leave with all that much more than what they came with. What do they get? Well in most cases new friends and a respect for living outdoors overnight. After that, they go back to their units and learn what the units need for them to learn. Everyone reveres the old Woodbadge Course as a great teacher of the patrol method, or troop method or whatever. But it was not intended to be a course to teach those methods, it was designed as a course to demonstrate different styles of teaching. The old course ran into problems when the majority of participants were never scouts. As a result of their ignorance, they took all the activities of the course literally and duplicated their own troop program from that experience. As SSScout pointed out, the course unintentionally drove the program more adult run. So the BSA rightly killed it and the course today is the result. But as a SM, I dreaded the passionate newly trained adults who were really more eager to experience the program as a scout than an adult. We are boy run patrol method troop. The adults are usually 100 yards away and not required to teach, train or even role model because the scouts do most of those responsibilities. So I found myself changing their enthusiasm toward a more boring direction of observing and cheer leading. Oh, we do advise, mentor and advise now and then, but more by request or reactionary mode. There was no room for adult Boy Scout wanabees in my program. I needed adults who respected and understood the value of SCOUTS making bad decisions and developing good habits from those decisions. That doesn't mean I don't respect adult leader training. I was a trainer at the Council, District and Unit Levels. I created several curriculums with the intention of enhancing the learning experience. But my approach to educating adults was the same as my approach for the scouts; I tried to give them experiences that lead to self confidence, not expertise of skills. For example I spent more time at IOLS teaching the adults how to not be afraid of woods tools than how to be an expert with the tools. Training classes don' t have time to turn ignorance into expertise, so I tried to give them something that actually did stick with them after the course. I believe the real value of learning in Wood Badge comes from the participants Ticket Items because they have to actually practice the subject. All that being said, our adults did enjoy our program. We often have 6 to 10 adults camping with us just because it was a relaxing outdoor atmosphere. And after learning how to observe at a distance without interfering, the adults found a respect for watching their sons grow in a patrol method program. And once the light was turned on, they were as passionate for boys learning from their decisions as the Scoutmaster. Barry

Good post. You put in better words of what I said earlier. I've not scoutmastered for a little over a dozen years now, but the difference in the challenges are huge. A few scouts during my time had phones, but nobody had smart phones. Our challenge was those small hand video games (I can't remember what they were called). Money? While we were getting in to the money card era, cash was still an easy and accepted method for patrol budget responsibilities. I've often said here that the troop program is "Real Life Scaled Down to a Boys Size". The troop is an arena where scouts can learn from their decisions without fear of being ridiculed for the results of there decisions. But I honestly don't know how Scoutmasters today work toward developing moral and ethical (and thrifty) decision makers when smart phones and credit cards are considered the norm in that arena. I find myself a student of your experiences today. That doesn't mean I won't preach (sorry) the idealism of Aims and Methods because I do believe they are still the targets which keep adults going the right direction, but I do respect the challenge. I am watching and learning from your experiences with these challenges. But even as a student in the newest methods of scouting, I still have your back in developing citizens of character and leaders of integrity. After all, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Patrol Method? If I may, I'll play the devils advocate here. If the parents are paying for their son's entertainment (fun stuff), what are the limitations of funds for the entertainment? Who sets the limit? Does the Patrol Method lose some identity when the parents (adults) say "enough". Is there a point when the Patrol Method becomes just a title for an afterschool program? I agree with David, but living in a disposable world doesn't diminish the life lesson of being thrifty. Our troop is in an upper middle class area, so funding isn't an issue for most of our families. But I found that if scouts were pushed to fit their program under a budget, their priorities and interests changed from what their parents wanted them to do to what they wanted to do. You would be surprised at the number of scouts who go on high adventure treks because their parents pushed them. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but we seem to talk a lot on this forum about adults giving scouts space for patrol method. Adults can have a huge effect on patrol method simply by their choices of what they will fund. I'm not advocating for or against parents funding the scouts experience. I'm just trying to bring it more in perspective of the scouting program and the goals of the BSA. Barry

This is a great idea. Barry

The nature of boys, and most men in general is to take the path of least resistance. Path of least resistance in my mind is another definition of thrifty. Where adults struggle in giving scout independence for making decisions is length of time scouts need for learning from their choices. Boy run is real life in very slow motion. We adults with life experiences already know how to make better choices simply by the wisdom developed from our previous choices. The scouts have yet to have that experience. So in just about all things we want scouts to learn, it's a give and take on how long the adults are willing to wait for scouts to learn right choices through the series of wrong choices. The lesson of thrifty is based mainly from the struggle of fitting the cost of our desires within the limitations of our funds. The more a scout gets his funding from outside sources like his parents, the less he is likely to understand the limitation of funds. As I said earlier, the scouts who earned the money of their patrol equipment are a lot more motivated to respect and take better care of that equipment. Their lesson of thrifty was a lot more effective than the new scouts two years down the road who inherited that same equipment simply by joining the troop. My point is how a troop approaches teaching the lesson of any of the traits in the Scout Law depends on how much patience the adults are willing to give the scouts in their independence to make the series of choices. All adult leaders want their program to be a place for growth in character and fitness for the scouts. But how much growth is not easy for us because it can be a long road. I know because I have been there. Barry

Our council once did a poll of Scoutmasters to learn why they felt the Council Youth Leadership course JLTC (NYLT) wasn't working. Top on the list the Scoutmasters said there was a disconnect between the troop leaders and what the course was teaching the scouts. How could they support their scouts if they don't know what they learned. blw2, have you asked the Scoutmaster (or CC, I guess) what they would like you to bring back from the course to help the troop program? What can IOLS teach you that your troop can't or hasn't already taught you? Barry

When we first started our troop, we had nothing. No equipment, nothing. So we all went out and did some car washes to get some fast cash. Later on as the troop grew a prospered, the new scouts didn't treat the equipment with the same respect as the scouts who worked to buy it, and they resented those scouts somewhat. As our troop progressed toward a backpacking style patrol method troop, the patrols have become more independent with their responsibilities and their patrol equipment. The patrols with the best equipment typically earned the funds to purchase and maintain it. Respect in just about all things has to be earned, if that makes sense. And for me, that is a great life lesson to learn. All that to say there is a balance to how much stress adults are willing to accept with the level of independence they give the scouts. Scout growth cost the adults in the stress of watching scouts flounder through their scouting experience. Your adults are at that point of how much stress they are willing to accept in giving the scouts the independence of making decisions with the funds. If the scouts take on more of the funding responsibility, your program will become more of a pay-as-you-go. Pay-as-you-go is less stress on the Troop Treasure, but more on the SM and ASMs. It really depends on how much growth you want from your scouts. I have a lot of experience all around this subject and I can't really advice a directions because it all depends on the willingness of your adults to accept the stress of scouts making their own decisions. Let me add that coming from a troop where the scouts handle these challenges, the cost of food is way down on the stress meter because scouts learn to deal with food and the cost pretty quickly. As I said, in just about all things, scouts take the path of least resistance. Barry

If you were to come to our meetings, I think you would find the boys making these decisions. Barry

Maybe because our troop is very patrol method, but we found that buying and storing bulk food to save cost risk compromising the growth that is gained from the responsibility of managing food and cost for a patrol. Higher cost turned out to be appropriate in some cases as waste and storage space became an issue. AND, the more the scouts tried to work toward bulk, the harder it was for the patrols to be independent of each other in planning menus and purchasing the food. Buying bulk didn't work very well for our patrol method program. I'm sure there are ways to fix that problem and I am open to suggestions. But looking back at the experience, I think it is important to remember that scouts in general like to go the path of least resistance. Barry

Interesting post blw2, I wished I had seen it 30 years ago. Thanks Barry

As the scout leader of hundreds of scouts over the years, I run into a lot of strange adults who have to introduce themselves as scout so-and-so, followed with how they really enjoyed me as a leader. Can't help but blush, it's the best. But, just about as many parents of scouts also approach and thank me for time with their son. They then follow up with what their son is doing now as a husband and parent. I never get tired of hearing about our scouts' adult lives. The parents of one scout stands out because they asked me to pin the Eagle Badge on their son at his ECOR. I told them that tradition in our troop is typically left to the scout's father. Both parents were direct when they insisted that they and their son felt I deserved to have that honor. I was so taken by their request that I honestly didn't know what to say. There were no words to express honor and humility in that moment. Yes, I was been paid back in full a long time ago. Barry

Have you tried, because we have been doing this for 20 years. You might not get the activity you asked for, but the camp usually tries to be accommodating. Barry

You don't need a camp program that specializes in a troop program, just schedule troop programs yourself. We do it every year. We usually schedule at least two troop activities during that week. We have done all the shooting sports, swimming, canoeing and so on. In fact, we have done every activity on your list over the years. We even did a troop polar bear swim in the cold waters in Colorado. We also do our own troop campfire in the middle of the week so the patrols can compete against each other with songs, skits and jokes. It's a great time for the scouts. The winning patrol performs their skit, song or jokes at the camp campfire. You (SPL) just needs to get with the camp director and make the requests. While this is unusual for camps to schedule an hour or two specifically for a troop, we have never had one turn us down. One camp like the idea so much that they added troop activities to their program the next year. We usually trade the camp with a service project for their kindness, but service projects are fun and part of scouting. We also push the scouts to schedule a lot of camp activities (other than advancement) on their own. We do our own advancement, so the scouts don't have the pressure to advance at summer camp or district colleges. It's all about fun for us. Troops don't realize how much independence they have at summer camp. You can use their facilities to do just about any troop program you can dream. Hey, adult training? Go for it. Other troops might even ask if they can participate. When it comes to picking camps, look for one with a lot of fun activities. Then build your troop and patrol program around your desires, not their agenda. One last thing, our troop traditionally does a fun activity after camp. Depending on what camp we attended, we have done, Amusement parks and rafting. It highlights the end of a long week. Barry

The "no running" rule (along with the "no open toed shoes") have been around since I was a scout in the 60's. Of course there is some common sense applied to the rule since some activities might involve running. But, our troop has taken more than one scout with a broken or severely cut toes resulting from rocks, roots, and tent stakes, to the emergency room. I personally like the rule. Barry

You are young and short on life experiences, so I don't expect this to go very far. But while I was a scouter frustrated by actions and inactions of parents and leaders I couldn't control, an old timer told me that I must learn the art of "not letting this stuff get to me and to move on". Getting all worked up doesn't change anything. Now I didn't take his advice then, but even my kids have told me lately that I have over time developed that ability to look forward without looking back at those things I can't change. My siblings come to mind. My life and relationships are much better as a result. The bible says don't dwell in the past; the righteous keep moving forward. I believe nobility has blinders to the nay sayers. Barry

Interesting. Before EDGE, our Troop guided our teachers (adults and scouts) to: 1. Introduce themselves and the skill they are teaching. 2. Give the students resources where they can review the skill. 3. Demonstrate the skill until the student can demonstrate the skill. I learned this list from the old Woodbadge Course. My Child Psychologist Scoutmaster friend taught me that most humans can remember only list of three items without having to study, so keep the lists short. I tried to never give a list of more than three even in adult classes. We taught that point number two was the most important to learn. I was anal that scouts know their resources. Now we have EDGE. I'm not sure what to think of EDGE when the old list of three worked pretty good. But at least it has a resource. LOL Barry

Likely the District Executive (DE) and District Commissioner (DC) have a good feel for programs in the Troops and Venturing Crews in your area. Call the council office and ask for the DE's phone number. The DE works with DC and they Are usually pretty good with guidance. Also, friends in school, church or sports might be glad to invite you to their unit. Barry

This is more toward my point. Whose to say this isn't a fad to gain some attention. As I said, loneliness makes people do extreme things. Once they go the surgical route, they are basically committing them to that lifestyle. Imagine some strange women walking up to tell you they made a choice because of your acceptance of their situation and now they regret that decision. The politics in our culture doesn't allow balance in the discussions of sexual orientation. You either agree or you are a racist. We even got a taste of that tone in this discussion. To allow them in the organization would be the same as forcing the adult leaders to say they are accepting of the scout's choice. Barry

LOL, yes, you and I have been here before. But you know, I have respect for those who want it all in this case because they want unconditional acceptance of what they believe God gave them. I respect that a lot. The problem is that behavior from the outside looking in is a choice, not a birthright. My son was just invited to a wedding of one of his best friends who now is strait after being gay for 20 years. Lot's of questions that probably even he can't answer. Barry

No I wasn't thinking about that. I really don't have problems with the parents if they aren't considering becoming registered leaders because they respect the program enough to put their boys in it. We had several gay parents of scouts in our area. They gave a lot of their time and support. Barry

Yes, but then you get in trouble with the activist who insist having a choice is the same as admitting the behavior isn't normal. There isn't a good choice for the BSA no matter what they choose to do, so I say "Do no Harm'. Barry

How can a person role model for someone they believe is possibly harming themselves? It would be role modeling the act of not caring. Barry

I am saying that the BSA should not take sides at all. I get the feeling you are taking my opinion as action for everyone. I'm am specifically talking about the BSA. Barry

If you are as self-righteous and judgemental of scout leader role models who don't agree with cultural inclusiveness as you are to just us in this discussion, just imagine your reaction to their natural behavior. What you suggest is forcing scouting adults to show acceptance even when they disagree. That is not role modeling, that is propagandizing. Barry

We as a culture should have a set of safe behavior guidelines to protect our youth when they are going through times of confusion. Giving acceptance to every thought of an inexperienced undeveloped immature juvenal mind should be a crime. Acceptance of allowing the child to evolve toward that emotion is the same as contributing to the choices they make in their future. I contend the BSA needs to save the volunteers and it's reputation from that contribution. I guess it comes under "Do no harm." Barry