Eagledad

I spend a lot of my time as a youth in the woods and I never saw a tick until the 1980s. I don't know the facts, but I also never saw a deer until the 1980s and now they are a road hazard. Barry

I wish you luck and I always look forward to good instructional videos. But a word of caution, the guidance, instruction or advice I gave after I finished my ticket in many cases would have changed a lot after three years experience. Not to mention a career of years. I'm not saying don't do it because I think many folks will find value in your videos, including me. But don't be surprised if you find yourself adding correctional text to them as you gain experience down the road. Unfortunately for us humans, experience is the hardest teacher, it gives the test first, then the lesson. LOL Barry

I don't know, everyone has a theory. What I am told by the experts is that prepubescent boys are instinctively drawn toward groups because they feel safer. If a boy chooses to be alone, it's because he feels safe. Barry

I came from a very competitive troop in the 70's. Very boy run with an average of 60 active scouts. We ran our troop as adults under the same model and are successful as well, but district level competition is much more challenging to organize today for the reason MattR stated of units not getting excited about it. The one difference between most troops today and the troops in the 70s is mixed age patrols. The older scouts drive the enthusiasm for competition. Today's patrols of younger scouts don't see or understand it's draw because the older scouts aren't there to get them excited with stories and continued training to sharpen skills. In fact, I believe the introduction of crossing over Webelos basically killed Camporee and Klondike competitions because skills training went from a week to week activity to an annual activity. Before groups crossed over in the winter like 99 percent of scouts do today, scouts joined around their birthday, so training all the scout skills occurred all year long. Now since all the new scouts have the same level of skills, skills training is more class room like occurring only once or twice a year. How TAWHAWK's district managed competition in 2007 is interesting to me. Barry

I have worked with many really great scouts in my scouting career, but one scout sticks out above the rest. Sadly this scout taught me a lot about my role as a scoutmaster in a hard lesson of him quitting out of frustration. He knew scouts skills better than any other scout and was one of those leaders that everyone (even adults) loved to follow. He was very creative in finding solutions to problems and was a great motivator for working toward goals. He loved to camp, fish, hike, backpack and whatever else the outdoors had to offer. He was a scout's scout. He is the model of the saluting Scout on some of the Boy Scout Handbooks covers. What he didn't enjoy (actually detested) was working toward rank advancement. If it were left up to him, he would have never advanced past Tenderfoot. But he was such a natural scout that all the adults wanted him to make Eagle because his natural persona IS the Eagle. He made it clear that any work toward advancement was just to appease the adults. Nobody else, just us adults. After he earned Star, he told us no more and to leave him alone to enjoy his scouting experience. But the all knowing adults didn't leave him alone. We kept throwing hints here and there because we would be committing a crime for such a scout to not be Eagle. Then one day he quit showing up. When I called him, he said that he might try again under the condition that he was not working anymore advancement. And he did come to a couple meetings, but scouting wasn't in his heart anymore. THE ADULTS beat it out of him. That experience brought me down to my knees and I had to reevaluate what the program was really about for each boy and my role in that program. I changed a lot almost overnight. Advancement is just but one of the Eight Methods. Add to that that each scout requires different levels of method experiences to grow to his personal best, and we find that one size cannot possibly fit all when it comes to scout growth, satisfaction, and success for each individual scout. So when the Scoutmaster defines the ideal vision for the scout program, some boys are going to be left out or driven out. The better route to helping each scout grow toward his best potential is to help them envision their own ideal scout self. Then give them a program that at the very least doesn't get in their way, and better yet supports their endeavor. I was never a fan of using the Eagle as bait for raising membership. I find it almost detestable now. I made a promise to every parent who visited our troop. I told them that if your son just came to one meeting, he would grow in character because everything we do in our program is driven to that purpose. The challenge for me was justifying every activity and action to have purpose. And the program changed as I found some policies and proceedures to either not add character, or actually drive character away. That is why I stay with this forum. I learned a lot in developing our program. I want to pass those lessons on, whether or not you decide they fit your program. Barry

This all started by the suggestion of using the Eagle as a Gold Standard to represent Boy Scouting. Flag suggested that by raising the qualifications for Eagle, the Gold Standard perceived by the public would raised as well. One issue I have with that idea is that the Eagle should not be the Gold Standard, character should be. And character was the standard until National decided to push the program to get more Eagles. All scouts develop character no matter what rank they reach by the end of their scouting career. But using Eagle as the Gold Standard implies success and failure of a scouting career. How many people can relate to the Boy Scout helping the little old lady across the street. Nobody ever said that scout was an Eagle. As for the team analogy, teams work toward the goal of one. A scout may need to develop a team to reach his goal, but my point of this discussion is that the individual scout sets the goals and creates the paths toward those goals. Not the SM. I believe the SM responsibility for each scout is to guide them to develop skill of making decisions and to learn from those decisions. Part of that is guiding the scout to be creative and to initiating the actions toward goals. I use the analogy of a golfer, swimmer, tennis player, and sprinter who don't work as part of a team for their individual success. They make decisions to direct, manage and lead resources to develop the skills and materials required for personal success. All scoutmasters are different and as a result use different styles for working with scouts. My style of Scoutmastering was never take any credit for any of my scouts growth. I never thought of myself as a team member for the scouts, instead I was on the outside looking in as a mentor. I also did my best to build a program that got out of the scouts way of their growth and a big part of that was getting the adults as far away from them as possible. I am their biggest cheer leader, but not a team member. Maybe it's a flaw in my character, but I admit to struggling with adults who want some credit in their scouts success. Because it is so hard, I think just getting out of their way should be our greatest contribution. Barry

The Scout Law is: “ A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. The Scout Oath is: On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. The Scout Oath mandates the individual scout (I) to help others at all times. The Scout Law gives the individual Scout (A Scout is) gives the scout the outward traits to act toward others. Guiding scouts individually toward their personal dream and developing personal skills for reaching their dream is a lot more challenging than pushing a team of scouts toward the one Scoutmaster's dream. Barry

Apples and oranges to me. Teams makes choices for individuals on the team to benefit the performance of the whole team. The Eagle is an individual accomplishment that doesn't require a team to succeed. Scouting has always had the advantage that individuals can set and work toward their own personal goals within set published requirements. Lone Scouts is an example of that advantage. Barry

This discussion started out on the pretense that the rewards from Scouting activities are equal to all other competing activities. Human nature is to go towards the most rewarding activity. If a unit struggles with scout participation (at any age), the program likely needs some changes. Barry

The moderators are as human as the rest of us and sometimes let their emotions drive their actions. Barry

Take a look at this, and then go read the "Iconic Mayday Scout image" discussion in the Issues and Politics section. For all the uniform options discussions we have had on this forum, I found the picture striking. Anyone in the world knew at first glance the organization to which she belong. I wish the GSUSA was so bold. http://i.imgur.com/9UKDt6W.jpg Barry

That might work. Years ago the adult OA sponsor in our district seem to visit our troop meetings a lot more than was expected for a person of his position. A few years later when he and I were part of a team building a Council level youth leadership training course, he told me that he was just trying understand why so many of our scouts had become leaders in the OA. I didn't get into the details of what he learned, but he had became a DE by that time and was trying to pass along some of our program ideas to struggling troops. I guess the question is if what he learned helped those units. Barry

MattR said it perfectly. I wish I could add more to stroke my ego, but he squelch any thunder I had on the subject. To support MattR, we are who we are and changing that runs against nature. Much easier to work with the nature of each of our abilities. The adults goal is to build moral decisions makers by using the oath and law as guidelines. If you do only that much with those boys, my experience is that it will work out. I have a petty good reputation for building productive teams. But in truth, I learned that skill later in life when the humility of my failures beat down my pride. Who doesn't want a team where the aggressive member pushes the team to max performance while the calm member insures a quality product. I think back at our Patrol Leaders who courageously took on the challenge of balancing a patrol of athletes along side their severely learning disabled patrol brothers. I would like to take credit for their success, but in truth, I think I would have failed. I can't remember if the the Patrol Leader earned the Eagle, but the learning disabled scouts did. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

My opinion is National brought in female troop leaders, New Scout Patrols, First Class in First Year, and a same age patrol program in all about the same time. Did those additions effect the units and the basic troop program? Dramatically in my opinion. National added Tigers to the cub program and I think that had a huge affect on that program. We need to give credit to units that succeed despite Nationals changes. That doesn't mean I think sending professionals to summer camp would help units. The meat of unit programs is implementing the program during the year, not summer camps. I need pros around our everyday program to see how their changes challenge Us. Barry

Frito chips

Praying for peace and healing. Barry

I don't agree. I learned over the years that parents pretty much drive who joins scouts, at least until the boy is about 13. At that point parents feel like they did their part. In fact I used to teach the Cub Scout leaders that while it is of the opinion that Scouts is for the boys, in reality the program is driven by the parents and if they want a successful program, they need to listen to the needs of the parents because their sons go where the parents want them to go. That is basically true even for 11 and 12 year olds. When the gay issue was at it's most heated, new parents considering scouts said politics was the number 1 reason they would turn away from joining. Not because they disagreed with the BSA, but because they just didn't want to get in the middle of the debate. Folks are saturated with politics everyday now, why join another organization that is in the political hot seat. I keep reminding folks to look at the Canadian Scouts to see the BSA's future. Not only have the numbers never come close to being what they were when it was the Canadian Boy Scouts, it is also a much different program that isn't as much out door oriented or character based. There were several discussions even 15 years ago that if the program were to go more progressive, it would have to get away from faith based morality values. The Girls Scouts have already done it. But God will be taken out of the Scout Oath and Law. History of the YMCA is another example of the direction scouting is going. By the way, when I explain what the changes that we are proposing the BSA is going to make to old timers like my dad, they don't consider it the same program. Boy Scouts of America is dead as far as their concerned. I'm not far from that to be honest. Barry

Agreed. And they had a good run because of the passion of the volunteers. If the BSA were only manned by paid employees, it would have folded years ago. Which leads to another thought; until the last 15 years where I lost track, the major source of revenue and assets for the BSA came from alumni. In fact I read several years ago the BSA used to brag, that other than religion, it had the largest alumni support of any volunteer organization in the U.S. Maybe even the world. Rumor is that the BSA lost that bragging right after the gay membership change. Who knows, you know how rumors go. But for volunteer organizations, alumni asset support are like stock holders, they hold the organization accountable for its performance. If the alumni bail on the BSA, what leverage is left to hold National accountable? Barry

Smaller, better? Before political correctness was driving decisions at National, BSA's largest membership decline issue was it's program. The Cub Program alone looses over 75% (I think it's more) of it's families before they even get to the troop age. None of the program changes I have seen or experienced in the last 25 years addresses the issues forcing the decline. In fact, the changes and proposed changes actually require more adult volunteer time, not less. National hasn't shown and inclination of going leaner and meaner. I don't see how taking a large group of boys sponsored by a religious organization improves that outlook. Barry

LOL, not one scouting organization in North America increased membership after it switched to include the other genders, lifestyle and non religious (3Gs). Accepting girls will make progressives happy, but it will not fix the membership or revenue struggles. In fact it will likely exacerbate the problems for the near future until National adjust the program to fit a more urban lifestyle. As for civic organization vs. religious institutions, the political environment is discouraging civic organizations from getting into the outdoor youth programs. They will likely decrease their support instead of increase. Ironically the religious institutions took on the BSA because their missions are similar for youth. The religious institutions, more than most civic COs, have the most motivation for a Scouting program simply because of the the BSA mission. I think what the progressives really want is to change the BSA Mission so that religion isn't a critical element of the program. But going that direction will only add to the heated cultural tension, so it won't increase membership or funding either. What scouting is today is as good as it will ever be. The future is less boy run (youth run), less outdoors, and less personal decision making. Barry

I'm asking NJ to give the advice so we (at least me) can see where and how he thinks this should be handled. Funny, I'm curious how a scout can become life in this troop without much camping. How does that happen? That the scout manages to earn Eagle under the rules given by the BSA and guided by his troop leadership is no surprise. So how did the discussion turn to the OPs son not being worthy of Eagle? What can we expect the parent to say when his son is attacked? Barry

So you advise the parent to stop the process of their son earning their Eagle. Just quit? There are better ways of making a point without attacking the OP. Splain it to me NJ. Put yourself in the OPs shoes first, and then tell him what he should do? How do you think a parent should react when a bunch of faceless strangers attack their kids? The opinion could have been brought out differently. Barry

I agree 100% with you. My struggle is that the thread went from helping answer a question for an Eagle requirement to a judgement whether the scout is deserving of the award. When the American generals were getting ready for the Normandy invasion, they specifically sought out Boy Scouts to lead the troops in the invasion. I seem to remember that they were actually looking for Eagle Scouts, but it's an old Scoutmaster minute and it very well could have been first class scouts or even just scouts. But here is the point, the two reasons they wanted scouts leading the forces was because they had leadership experience and first aid training. Number of nights camping was not even considered. My point is there are multiple qualities that can set Eagles on a higher status. Judging a scout short of an award based on one quality when little else is known about that scout is disrespectful of all scouts. The opinion could have been made without judging the OP's son personally. Barry

This very same thing happened with a home school troop. They took over and the troop went into a high pressure Eagle Mill program. When we approached the leaders, they told us we were just being bias. The one advantage to that troop was their sons' Eagled by age 14 and those adults left. Barry

The only time my sons complained (as well as my wife and daughter) was when I talked too much about scouting at the dinner table. To give the whole family a break, scouting discussions at home were very limited. Scoutmasters have so many responsibilities that giving their sons special or higher priority over the other scouts would be challenging. I worried more that I wasn't giving them enough father time on scout outings, especially at summer camp. I enjoyed high adventure treks because I was only a team member, not a scoutmaster. That gave me a lot more one on one time with my sons. I'm not sure they noticed the difference, but I sure did. Barry