Eagledad

That was unscout-like at the very least and role models a bad example of patrol method. Question: if I could complete a round of golf in two hours, am I good to go? Barry

MattR's whole post has some really good advice. All I can add is that you approach him as a mentor willing to be there when he is willing to need you. The actions of a mentor are generated by the request of mentee. If the scout's heart isn't in it, he isn't requesting any action on your part. Barry

This isn't something new, our district was dealing with churches dropping units 25 years ago. Sometimes church leaders find it's not worth the effort to support the youth group that doesn't hold to or even struggles holding to the values of the church. The problem we had with such drops is getting the church to consider a new unit with more like minded adults. They generally don't. Barry

You said it best, "rules". We treat adults as adults and keep and open mind to outside request. We don't apply any rules on the adults accept that they not get in the way of the scouts' patrol method experience. Does it matter if a fishing enthusiast father fishes on camp property or a well known stream nearby out of camp? What about hiker checking out a nearby off camp trail? In the bigger question, why should you care what the adult is doing on their time if they aren't required in camp? It has the appearance of control to me. Rules? Yah rules. As I said, I changed and matured a lot as a scouter and a scoutmaster. Would I consider a patrol requesting an activity outside of the camp program during summer camp? You bet. I didn't used to be that way, but as I stated earlier, I learned to focus on the needs of the scouts instead of the needs of my ego. If the scouts are proposing activities and ideas that promote scout growth and patrol method maturity, I will jump on it in a heartbeat. Has it happened at summer camp in my time? No, but I sure would be open to it. In fact if it's a really good idea, I would invite it as future ideas because I have seen how much those kinds of suggestions have improved our overall patrol method program. If for example the whole patrol is working on a golf MB and an opportunity came up for the patrol to play around at a nearby course, yes I would consider the request. Of course there may be some limitations like only a 9 hole round to fit within the daily camp schedule. So yes, wouldn't your patrol summer camp experience be more enhanced by such an opportunity? We get way to entrenched on our personal view of the scouting experience when we should focus more on what advances the goals of scouting. Trust me, I know from experience how hard it is to take our personal ego and expectations out of the equation. But as you learn to give up some of that control, you will be rewarded by a program where boys can't wait to come to do scouting stuff in your troop. Rules? Quit thinking in rules. They can bind a program. Barry

Let me refer you back to post #28 "Maybe, but I prefer different strokes for different folks. Typically 95% of our scouts goto to summer camp, which includes scouts 14 and older. Camps never questioned us when we reserved a separate camp for the adults. We may not agree on the subject of adults at camp, but our scouts enjoy the way we camp." Why would any troop in their right mind change a part of the program that produces a high level of success? Our adults don't go to camp to specifically play golf, but neither don't we force stringent requirements on the adults during camp. They are adults after all using some of their hard earned vacation time away from the whole family. The least we can do is have an open mind to personal request. In truth most adults do stay around camp, but not because we require it. The scouts are on their own for the most part, so the adults simply aren't required. As I also said, I believe summer camp is a great opportunity for scouts to practice intense patrol method scouting. Should we care what the adults are doing if their personal activities aren't effecting the scouts' experience? On the disrespect comment, I'm kind of at a loss for understanding why you as a scout disrespected the adults. If you are enjoying your camp experience, and the adults don't hang around the scouts during camp activities, why would you care what they are doing? I'm not sure a single scout in our troop could even comment on the actions of one single adult during the scouts daily summer camp activities. We trust the scouts to be responsible while on their own, maybe they respect us for that trust. Barry

well yes of course, but it's also an example of the advantages of scouters using this forum. Where else can a scouter needing ideas go for something to push their program up the next step. The best this forum has is a buffet of ideas? Once in a while scouters who are ether angry at the world or believe they are the old man at the top of the mountain when it comes to scouting join the forum to set the way things should be. But they come and go as they find out some here either have more experience or bigger egos. Or both. I remember being young, egotistical and a scoutmaster. I believed that not only the scouts should share my vision of the perfect scout, but the adults as well. Then something happened, over a series of experiences and some straight talk by my mentors, I turned my fixation off of me and on the scouts. Actually each scout individually. The world of scouting changed and the scouts benefited greatly from it. I grew up and now I'm here to add my part to this wonderful buffet of ideas. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

It's my vacation, not yours. Barry

Maybe, but I prefer different strokes for different folks. Typically 95% of our scouts goto to summer camp, which includes scouts 14 and older. Camps never questioned us when we reserved a separate camp for the adults. We may not agree on the subject of adults at camp, but our scouts enjoy the way we camp. Barry

If adult leaders want to be part of the boy run program, they will find justifications to be part of the boy run program. Barry

We have a lot of parents go to camp with us, but they are instructed that this is their vacation and they need to plan accordingly without their sons because the scouts are on their own. We reserve two separate camps so the adults aren't mixed with the scouts. In general the adults look for local activities that fits their personal interest. That has included a lot fishing and occasional golf. Oh the scouts will ask for occasional volunteers for BORs or something, but that is very occasional. Summer camp is an opportunity for intense patrol method. I've heard many times from first year parents that their son came back a different person (more mature). That being said, I remember letting a few scouts go have some father son time with their dad. Dads understand the program and plan their time so that it doesn't disrupt their sons experience with their patrol. The SPL is the camp go-to unit leader unless the camp staff absolutely needs the attention of an adult. He is the first person in our troop to enter camp (with all the troop documents) and the last to leave. As a result, the SPL works so hard that the troop pays his camp fees. Many scouts working towards SPL try to plan for getting elected in the January election so they can be the summer camp SPL. It's very hard work, but They look forward to the challenge and responsibilities of an adult. And some scouts have seen that job and wait until their 2nd stint as SPL. If our adults want to monitor a class, we ask them to find one without our scouts. We had one mother whose older son in a different troop attended the same camp the week after our troop. She didn't go home two weeks. She said the two troops could not have been more opposite, she only read novels during our week and worked her tail off with the next week with the other troop. She never went to camp with the other troop again. Parent vacation time is valuable, let them enjoy it while their sons do their scouting stuff. Your scouts certainly don't need them. Barry

I agree. When a scout's behavior becomes uncontrollable, the parents have to make a choice to actively solve the problem or find another program. It's their choice. A few parents have chosen to find another program. Barry

Read my posts, I said several times "adult" bans and rules can limit Scout growth and maturity. You didn't mention the PLC until after my post. I wasn't the only scouter here suggesting that your adults consider their part on the subject. I guess I was just the one that struck a cord. Barry

Ok, I understand. But if I may, you sound pretty firm and limiting in your expectation. Scouts mimic their adults. Barry

Your post is still written as if maturity doesn't happen. Instead of debating my experiences with your experiences, you should be asking why scouts' and troops mature differently. The simple answer is they aren't given the expectation to mature. Scouts can only grow when they are given the room to learn from their decisions AND have a bases to compare their decisions against. In general that basest is the scout law. But more specifically it's the adults interpretation of the law, which is the expectation. The reason many troops don't continue maturing is because the adults aren't maturing. They have taken a stand on an expectation. All units do it to some degree. The adults simply don't consider other expectations, so growth and maturity stop. For a troop to remove the boundaries that prevent Scout growth, the adults have to grow and mature faster than the scouts. Expectations of a mature program are dynamic. Expectations (maturity) keep changing to continue challenging the scouts decision processes. It's very hard work for adults in a mature patrol method program. Not everyone is up for the challenge. And sadly sometimes it's just pride. Some adults like being in charge, so they don't allow growth and creativity that doesn't come from them. The best scoutmasters are very humble in their nature. Barry

It's not a premise, it's years of observation. Yes of course the goal is the scouts holding each other accountable for their choices. in fact that is the expectation. I can understand the PLC taking away choices because, like the adults, its easier not holding scouts accountable. But scouts and adults learn to adapt as they mature with the program. Just be careful the adults allow the scouts to adapt as they mature. Barry

The responsibility of the adults is to provid a program where scouts learn to balance the consequences of their choices with the Scout Law. The more a scout chooses, the more he gets to practice with the Scout Law. I used to instruct adults at leader training that the choices troops hold from their scouts are typically based from a adult fears or arrogance. Over the years of doing this scouting stuff, l found consistent scout behavior mimics consistent adult behavior. So the adults only real fear is their arrogance of hypocrisy. The way past adult fears is training and setting expectation. In this case, Teach how the phones can be valid tools During scouting activities and set an expectation that they won't interfere with the scouting experience. Of course some scouts will abuse the expectation, but that is an opportunity to guide the scout in his choices of living by the Scout Law. Barry

Yes, our troop allows scouts to use single man tents provided they bring their own. Being a back packing or minimalist program, I support it. But it wasn't that long ago this forum debated single man tents because a scout might become ill and nobody would know. I still support single man tents, but I can think of two scouts who tent mates had to get help in the middle of the night because they became so ill. Seems nothing is easy. Barry

Yep, Scoutmaster Sentinel has a nice ring to it. Barry

I wasn't thinking of anyone specificity, the forum had a lot of intense discussions back then and it was several years ago. Your post just reminded me of that argument. Barry

Our Bobwhite yell was "LOOK OUT BELOW!" Barry

I have to laugh, pro gay adult leaders on this form were saying the same thing when some us argued homosexuality was a bad example of role modeling. That's when they said "no sex in front of Scouts, which included hand holding by married leaders.". Of course that was a silly response, but no sillier than what is posted in this thread. Barry

One of our scouts was a Philmont Trail Guide and I asked him what was the most frustrating part of being a Trail guide. He said crews who took more than 30 minutes to break camp. He guided a few crews that took more than 2 hours to break a camp and it makes the whole day stressful trying to get them to their next campsite in a reasonable time. Add to that breaking camp in the dark. The faster the crew can break camp, the later they can sleep. Barry

Sentinel, I modeled our boy run program from a troop whose Scoutmaster started when he was about 21 and single (Cliff Golden - Troop 33). His Troop is the best model of boy run program in the country. He was my role model for becoming the type of scoutmaster I became. The best scoutmasters can sell refrigerators to Eskimos because Boy run/patrol method is a tough concept to sell. You have already proven yourself to have that skill. Barry

Interesting question. Everyone's answers are good. On my crews, the Scouts decided when to start the night before. In general they looked at the program and distance to the program and calculated departure from there. In most cases, but not all, we were on the trail just as the sun started giving us light. In a couple of cases, we were hiking a dark trail for a few minutes. Not my choice, but the scouts seem to get it pretty right in most cases. I should add that most of the scouts in the crews I was on had several backpacking trek experiences. Barry

I miss Oak Tree, he is a fine Scoutmaster with a lot of good advice. One of his comments when this, or any kind of situation of adult drama occurs is: "Someone has to step up.". Strangely I find that most adult behavior situations can be nipped in the bud if someone would just step up. But most folks do not want to be a bad cop or deal with confrontation. Our district was asked to deal with a SM and ASM relationship in a troop because the committee refused to step up. Much the same as the OPs, the ASM (mother) was still married and not hiding her affection for the just divorced SM even with her son around. The DE had to step up, but not after the troop lost a 3rd of it's scouts. The SM was later kicked out of the program for offering a beer to a scout after lights out. Barry