Eagledad

When I look back over the years of posters coming and going, I can never forget the many posters who truly believe BSA membership would climb when gays were allowed to join. That never made sense to me. Gays? Just how many gays are out there waiting to join as soon as the policy changes. Not that we didn't have gay families, I knew a gay parents in units in our district and I had several atheist parents in my own pack and troop. They were joining even without policy changes. So, where was this assumption of massive growth? And maybe my problem is that I'm too pragmatic. I tend to make decisions based from facts, not theory or emotions. Theory and emotion tend to make people think the world revolves around them and if they were king, or queen, they could change the world. Facts are usually more complicated and harder to understand. They certainly don't jive with our emotions. Someone here once said in a condescending tone that the debate is really more about defending tradition. He is wrong in his application of tradition to imply that those who appose girls do so simply to keep the boys club the boy's club. In reality, the traditional part of the program that is being defended puts boys in an environment where they can grow from observing same gender role models as well as the safety of learning from their independent decisions. The difference between the guy who really believe that membership would grow in leaps and bounds from admitting gays and me is that I knew why membership was declining in the first place and how many families declined scouting because of the membership inclusiveness. I look at the history of programs changing their membership policies over the world and there isn't any program that grew larger than before it made the change. In fact, most had a dramatic drop. Everyone keeps pointing to the England, but that took many many years for them to just catch up. Even then it can be argued whether the policy change was a success because girls had to make up the loss for the boys. The evidence of history is there and the facts are the BSA WILL suffer with membership policy changes. It may eventually recover, but not in our adult leadership lifetime. Check Canada, Campfire Kids and even the GSUSA after their admittance of gays. So, from all the data accumulated from history, the discussion should trend toward if the loss of membership is worth the change. By listening to our British counterparts, I would guess they would say yes. Of course, most of the adults today were very young at the time. I certainly remember the Canadian Scouts on the forums during their time of change and they were quite bitter. They weren't coming back. Ignoring the crowd motivated by political correctness, you know who your are, it seems most of the voices for change desire a program where all the members of the family can participate together. That certainly is not the present Troop or even Venturing program. But appears to be the common drive toward the membership change. And while many folks don't see the program changing simply by admitting girls, those of us who experienced the program after women were brought in as troop level leaders know better. The program will go through massive changes. More women will become leaders, which means for the near future less adults will have a scouting and outdoor experience. Which translates into a weaker outdoor program. Which translates into a weaker patrol method program. Not all at once, but it will change a lot inside 20 years. Take a look at the Canadian program, up until the early 1990's, Canadian Scouts around the was considered the premier scouting program. It was the model everyone else said should be followed. Not anymore. Much has been said in comparing the changes to the YMCA, and that is a very valid comparison. Comparing local youth sports with the YMCA today, YMCA sports are considered noncompetitive. Only families that don't want a competitive sports experience joined the Y. That is the future of the BSA as it becomes a family camping program. In "my opinion" character grow from the BSA program will eventually just become a saying because nobody will know how to do it. Nor will they care. Scouting will be a time for families to camp together. It will be family bonding time. So my question is: Is that what the culture really wants, really desires? Is that where scouting really needs to go because I really don't know. I am a proud alumni of the traditional program. My family has been raised with the traditional program. Does the culture need a more family style program for future youth? Barry

Jrush, nobody has said anything official. We are all just blathering through our fears, hopes and desires. Your theory doesn't have anymore relevance than mine. You completely missed what I said in my post because I imagine you really want girls in the program. Badly. Barry

fehler's comment suggested racism is the source of appossing girls in the BSA. The comment is inappropriate and juvenile. Barry

Is that a racist comment? Barry

Yes, but the BSA won the Dale case, so it was dealt with, as you say. The gay issue pulled organizations and institutions that used morality as a basis for it's principle program into the debate because morality is the one world ideal that dictates behavioral decisions. A gay activist leader around 1992 told me that their goal was to confused the perspective of religious base morality. He said their activism was going after any and all organizations with a spiritual based guidance of morality. When the BSA program was mentioned, he said he didn't care what happens to the BSA or any other religious organization, they were intending to take them down so that a relgious based morality wasn't used for any lifestyle choice. For any of those who have been following this for a while, the gays activism actually didn't get any traction at first with the BSA because they approached it at allowing "adult" gay scout leaders. The program is based on role models and even families who don't have trouble with the lifestyle struggled with the idea of their kids spending a week with gay adults. But once the activist started going after admitting gay youth, the tide turned. My personal opinion is that the BSA has dug itself in a hole that isn't easy to get out of. In the big picture, girls is a very difficult road to take because it not only starts the program over again, it will also run into a feminist agenda. The cultural progressives (politically motivated) folks here naturally want to push what is one of the few bastions of conservative idealism into liberal world order. But the girl scout program has been supported by feminist contributors for a long time. As long as the BSA stayed out of their pot, they have left the BSA alone. Has anyone not noticed how quiet the GSUSA was during the gay attack on the BSA? I also agree with those who believe that the BSA is going to back off from it's present morality base to become more politically acceptable. But, personally I think it will take a lot of years to for the conservative moral stigma to fade and in the meantime will suffer membership wise as a result. I just don't see how the BSA can improve it's membership in the short term except to change the present internal problems. The new Lion program proves that National isn't going to go that direction. As for me, I'm one of those boys who thrived on camping with my male patrol mates. I was the only boy with three sisters and a father who traveled for his business. I needed scouts for a lot of reasons. I took what scouting gave me and gave it back to my scouts. I can honestly say that if girls had become part of the program when my oldest son was old enough for cubs, I would not have joined as an adult. I thrived on a program for boys and wanted the same for my sons. As for the gays and godless, well my scouts were guided by my interpretation of the Scout Law, which was instilled by my interpretations of my faith. Without a god to guide the adult leaders, the program is nothing more than a camping club. Leading a program of taking youth into the woods is too hard to not have a greater purpose of raising adults of moral character. Can a once great youth scouting organization survive the progressive cultural agenda. Well the Campfire Kids and Canadian Scouts aren't showing much hope. If after school activities is all parents really want, there are a lot of outdoor activity programs that are easier to manage around. Barry

Maybe, but do you believe jrush's post to be anything more than a personal theory? Are the professionals at National motivated by a cause? Barry

Wow! Interesting theory. I'm guessing that at least 70% of COs are religious based. Who in their right mind would want to be part of an organization with that business model? Barry

Based on what, politics, theory, personal desire? What? Barry

I miss the Tiger T-shirts. Parents (moms) did away with them because they felt t-shirts made the Tigers look exclusive to the rest of the pack. But the boys liked them because they looked cool for their age, and they could wear them anytime since they didn't look like a uniform. Barry

The worst scoutmaster I have ever met let his scouts do or say anything they wanted. They were the most misbehaved scouts I have ever seen as a group. He was not a boy run SM, he was just waiting for his son to earn Eagle so they could move on. They were kicked out of the camp campfire. Over the years, I found the challenge of scoutmastering to be setting a tone of Oath and Law without having to speak about it. And while I understand "the look", it's really more than that. It's a slight twing in the voice and lesser of a laugh. It's a slight change of stride in the walk. It's that little something that only the scouts might see, or feel, that gives them pause to wonder about their action. The tone is different for all of us, it's not something I could teach. And it took years for me to develop because it takes time to change from the correcting father to the disappointed big brother. The point of all this is boys of this age are looking for guidance in their search to find themselves. Boys don't want to be crass or antisocial, but they live in an awkward time where being accepted is a pull in all directions. Nature drives boys to look for and to look up to their gender role model leader so they can find where they are supposed to fit in their chaotic world. Finding oneself is stressful and finding the kind of person you want to be relieves that stress. Good or bad, the Scoutmaster is that role model by default. It's truly a burden and noble responsibility all at the same time. So, practice being that role model. Set a tone of acceptability. Boys will be boys and that is important, but there are limits. It's ok for boys to push the limits, but the tone of the scoutmaster is where the line is drawn. And while boys may moan outwardly with their peers when they cross the line, they are grateful inwardly for the direction. I can't say what those limits should be because we are all different, but don't be afraid to have an opinion. Be a compass for them. I want you to know, because it happens to me a lot now, adults who were once your scouts (and their parents) will walk up to shake your hand and thank you. Be the model you want them to be when they become those adults. Barry

I think you need a hug. Barry

Different Scoutmasters inspire young minds differently. Barry

I use to teach at Scoutmaster Fundamentals that a boys world doesn't rotate around the Scoutmaster. As far as scouts are concerned, most adult's over 40 were probably in the revolutionary war. For an adult to appeal to a boy's eagerness to learn, they must approach the boy in his world. Truth is the vast majority of youth today rarely ever tie a knot, even shoe laces. So when the old-man goes off lecturing practical uses of knots in todays world, all the scouts see is the SM using knots to hook together the old rusty plow to mule for days work in the field. Scouts might get lucky and use the knots while camping, especially is some adult points out good uses for the knots. Tent races with the old cabin tents are good ways of encouraging faster learning. But, cabin tents are getting fewer and harder to find. The value of BSA knots, and many of the first class skills, in this culture is that they help a boy grow in the practice of initiating goals and using frustration or success of completion to encourage more goals and more successes. Knots are ideal at this age because boys rather learn by doing something with their hands then listening to the old-timer tell stories of saddling horses for the Pony Express. Growth is balanced on how the scout feels during the task. It's a fine line between the sense of accomplishment for the correct knot and the sense of frustration from making several integral tedious turns of a rope to find success. Success means setting or initiating another goal, maybe a higher goal. Frustration means building patience in a continued effort so as not to let failure prevail. As a man, he will experience both, so the practice of learning the proper response of performance leads to a lifestyle of maturity to handle both success and failure. Just as important, knots and other first class skills develop the habit of setting goals and initiating small processes to accomplish the larger task. It's not a theory, we watch it in our own troop. Scouts encouraged to set further goals after the success of learning a previous skill became more confident leaders as older scouts compared to our older scouts who transferred from other troops. The difference in confidence to initiate actions to complete goals was striking when compared to scouts that didn't learn their first class skills in our troop. I also attribute it to our large number of Eagles because we do not push for them. Once a scout develops the habits of setting goals and follow through to completion, the requirements toward Eagle happen almost by just showing up. Then there is the adult comments toward scouts creativity. When I trained scoutmasters, I instructed them to resist giving personal opinion. As much as we like to think we treat scouts as equal adults, the scouts always see adults as authoritative. At least until about 16. And when a scout suggest a creative idea to the adult, he is more than likely looking for permission to pursue the idea by the adult words and body language. A young adult is always looking for acceptance by the old adult. So when the SM goes off into a history lesson of why, when and where such an idea may have once had value because in the old days of churning butter, and thusss bla bla bla...., the scout only hears, "sounds stupid to me". I have watched many scouts drop an idea simply because the adult gave an opinion. It is better to practice the art of listening and responding with "hmm, I would like to see that". And then just walk off. Even our least direct words have a lot of power. Sadly our culture doesn't encourage creativity from our youth, I agree with other scoutmasters that creativity is a skill many youth just plan struggle with. And it is fragile, if we adults show any kind negative opinion toward the their idea, they drop it. As for the cheer. Kind of a strange discussion here about how to justify it, or not, through tradition. Tradition? Our troop started a Troop JLT course that the older scouts present once a year. Somehow, the course got a reputation and other troops started sending their scouts. One of the activities they started using in the course was a competition of using semaphore. I came from a time of using semaphore a lot and was glad to forget it. But we said sure, lets see what happens. Turns out the scouts today love putting signals together and communicating with scouts a football field away. The older scouts love the exercise and used it for years. Apparently tradition can be fun. Our troop uses cheer regularly. It's a method of unity really. The patrols mostly do a cheer at the beginning of the Flag Ceremonies. SCOUTS ATTENTION! COLOR GUARD ATTENTION! "LEAD, FOLLOW OR GET OUT THE WAY!". Or whatever they create. The cheer can be made up promptitude for the moment like during a special ceremony for ECOR. But it is a small way of showing pride for the group. And it's not just patrol pride, sometime the cheers can get competitive, and healthy competition pulls all the patrols together of showing pride. As much as cheers work at the patrol and troop level, our troop typically volunteers for Color Guard at summer camp. The scouts who do the service usually create something quick, but catchy. And they typically get some clapping by the other troops. But it also typically sets the other troops on a tone to one-up the last cheer and it grows into a camp competition. A way of camp unity. Pretty cool really. Cheers can be a great patrol method tool when the old scoutmaster is willing to let it. Even encourage it a little. I once challenged our color guard at summer camp to do a silent version of the service. Our guys are pretty cocky after doing these for a few years, so I challenged their egotistical confidence. I have heard of the silent color guard presentation, but never saw one. I didn't know what to expect. So imagine the color guard getting in position, standing in silence for a few seconds, and then performing the flag service without a single call from the leader. The only sound is wind and birds. It has to be practiced to look sharp. But if done well, the color guard marches back into the ranks with an ovation by the camp. Try it if your troop has an opportunity. Scouting is giving scouts the opportunity to like themselves from their own personal choices. I learned to leave nothing behind. Sometimes an old idea is what is needed. Anybody do chariot races with lashings and poles? It's a fun way to teach lashings. Ah I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Seems like a lot of talk to say "OK, I shouldn't have said anything". If we truly want to get into what scouting traditions "adults" think should or shouldn't be used today, we aren't too far from debating the value of knots AND lashings in todays Velcro/bungee cord culture. Barry

Just need the right merit badge training.

Arrows? I don't need no stinking arrows. Barry

Todays parents both work full time jobs and then come home to fix dinner and wind down as a family. REALLY caring sometimes takes away from family time. There are ways to help this, we tried to get assistants to help with the planning, but leading a den can still be a pull on the leaders life. When a leader called to vent on their struggle, I always listened and tried to find a fix that didn't require more of their time or change of their lifestyle. I believe den leaders are the hardest working scouters in the BSA. Barry

This is how we did our Tiger program. We asked dens to meet twice a month where ever they wanted and we gave them suggestions like the zoo, fire station, and places appealing to tiger families looking for an easy afternoon. We also gave them the pack meeting as a choice, but not a requirement because we wanted their time to be more of a parent son time than scout time. We tried hard to help the parents not feel pulled by the program. We had a 97 percent crossover rate to Bears. Barry

In another discussion I spoke of the chaos of new scouts. They go crazy on the elixir of independence and run as fast and as far as they can waiting for someone to yell, SSSSTOP! The adventure for them is the distance to those far boundaries of boy run. Schiff is right, adventure is really a simple thing that we seem to have turned into huge expensive treks that go around the world. Part of the problem is adults today seem to feel that scouts need to go through the right of passage of earning 1st Class. "Then" they can do the fun adventure stuff. I blame that on National's suggestion of "First Class in the First Year" promise. I remember when our troop was young. We did a day trip to commercial climbing tower in downtown Oklahoma City where the scouts climbed for two hours. Our plan after was to eat pizza at a local restaurant about six blocks away. Without hesitating, the SM told the SPL that the adults would take the cars and meet the scouts at the restaurant. We drove off the SPL was assembling the scouts. The adults met scouts at the same time in front of the door. You would have thought that the talk of the day would have been the Climbing Tower, but it was about hiking the patrols through downtown OKC without any adults. Making simple independent decisions that impact the lives patrol mates is adventure. Learning from those decisions is adventure. Hey, lets squeeze in a little fishing, hiking, backpacking, canoeing and bike rides in there as well and those scouts are having adventures there friends only dream about. I had a friend who had been a SM for eight months when he called me one night. He was Wood Badge trained under the old course and would not take any advice on leading his new troop of new scouts. His simple question to me was, "my scouts are bored to death of doing advancement on campouts. What can I do to fix that?". I'm having trouble putting my thoughts into words. I'm not preaching about anti-advancement because I am very pro Eight Methods. But I think we need to train todays new adult leaders that the attraction of scouting is the active participation of new experiences. The simple adventure of hiking the last mile to a campsite at night. How about setting up camp in the dark, the rain or both. LOL, I remember one ASM laughing at me as I hoped the rain in the distance while we drove to camp would hit us about the time we reached our camp sites. Do you realize how much confidence a boy builds by the simple act of setting up a tent in the rain? And in the Dark? It is amazing to watch. Truly! Their friends can't even imagine it. Adventure is cooking the first meal with an older scout while he tells jokes. Adventure is chasing a rabbit or standing back as the local camp skunk walks by looking for food scraps. As I gave my SM friend a few suggestions, he was shocked to learn that our scouts have at least a couple hours of free time before preparing for supper. Free time never occurred to him because he never had free time at Wood Badge. Imagine capture the flag after the campfire in the dark. Ah, adventure. Some of my favorite adventure moments as a scout were the great discussions over the patrol campfire. As a eleven and twelve year old, I learned a lot about cars, fighter airplanes, girls and movies from those discussions. Funny, I knew most of the key phrases from George C. Scott in his character of Patton before I ever saw the movie. I remember thinking as I watched the movie for the first time that it wasn't as good as how my patrol mates told it. LOL Adventure is doing something different in their patrol than if they stayed home. It's not as hard as it sounds. How can we explain that to new scout leaders? I haven't said it in a while, but I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Matt, you have a very good grasp of the situation. There are two different problems mixing in the discussion. One is boys who are not mature enough for the troop program, the other is Cub adult burnout driving boring den programs. Bringing 2nd year Webelos to troop meeting and a few activities is a good idea because it not only Lets Webelos tsee the troop Scouts in action, it also gives troop leaders a chance to assist the burned out Web leader in proving a better Webelos program. It also helps in the other problem of first year scout maturity, because as you said, knowing what to expect reduces the shock of the troop program. This is serious issue because more Scouts drop out during the first year troop experience than any other age. NSPs and First Class In The First Year (FCFY) is how National attacked the problem around 1990. But, the numbers hasn't changed and I'm my opinion, the program went to a less adventure formate because it focuses too much on advancement. All that being said (I know, I keep repeating myself), the adult burnout issue still needs to be addressed. I've said many times here, I personally would start by taking the Tigers out of the Cub program. Tiger age Scouts don't have the reading skills or behavior discipline that helps Pack Meetings run faster and smoother. They basically still have the maturity of toddlers. Just as important, the first grade year is typically a chaotic year for parents because that is the first year all programs like sports, church, and school change from toddler to elementary mature activities. They are hit by the multiple programs to register the kids just in the first week of school. Overwhelmed Parents are why Tigers has such a low crossover to bears. When National change the Tiger program in 2000 to require a parent for each scout attend four meetings a month, we predicted a higher dropout in Tigers and a sudden drop in troop membership in five years. It wasn't hard to predict, but it sure had people scratching their heads as it happened. Give the parents a year to get used to their more complicated lifestyle, then they can consider Scouts at an age where parents aren't required for every meeting. I know a lot of folks are afraid if they don't snag boys in first grade, they may never get them. But we had a pack drop their tiger program completely and never saw a drop in membership the 5 years I tracked them. As I said, the BSA membership decline is a complicated problem. Adding new demographic sources will not slow the bleeding because the problems are still there, and likely make the problems worse by adding more complexity. Barry

I did this with my Webelos and it worked pretty well. We only did one camp out with troop because it is a lot of work for the PLC. But I believe one camp out is fine anyway. Also we allowed Webelos to visit campouts and participate in the Saturday activities, which works fine as well if the adults are separated with the troop adults so they get an explanation of how the troop works. I remember one parent who got concerned when his son rode his bike in the lake. It was 35 degrees that day. He later joined our troop because he was impressed by how the adults stayed by the fire and let the Scouts take care of the Webelos. He also said our calm response of "he'll never do that again" was the best example of how the program teaches Scouts he could have seen. You are right, so long as Webelos can see a future that looks like fun, then it helps them through the boring days of being a Webelos. Let me just say not all Webelos den are boring, I found most den packs find pretty good den leaders. But loosing over 50% does show an overall problem. A problem I believe starts at Tigers. Also, the BSA membership problem of loosing Scouts the first six months in a troop comes down to the shell shock of young boys taking on so much responsibility and independence all at once. Webelos that have watched and experienced some of that independence have much better odds of getting through that first six months. And as I said, if you got them after summer camp, you pretty much have until at least 14. Longer if the program has the maturity for older Scouts. Barry

Maybe because most of the active members on this forum now are troop leaders, the discussion is missing the bleeding membership problem. I havent looked at the numbers in about 10 years, but up until then less than 50% of tigers become bears. Less than 50% of webelos join a troop. That is not including the drop outs during the other years. Now consider, if a New scout is still in a troop after six months, he will likely stay in Scouts until he is 14. Ignoring the first six months drop out numbers, which is the largest of all scouting, the troop program has a very low drop out rate compared to all the other years. What that means is that the troop program is not driving Scouts away. The cub program is where the bleeding is the problem. Of course the first six months troop drop outs is a concern, but that is a different problem which has been consistent since the BSA tracked membership. The cub drop out problem is complicated, but so as not to drowl on as I typically do, the core of the problem is adult burnout. The average volunteer in any organization has about 20 months of enthusiastic service in them. After that, they start to become a drag on the program. The Cub program is FIVE YEARS LONG. Solutions? Start by making the cub program shorter. Barry

90 percent of the world doesn't know that the BSA has less adventure or a different kind of adventure than 100 years ago. The vast majority of of the community (including BSA adult leaders) believe today's scouting has just as much adventure as any troop in history. In fact, l would challenge that troops today have more adventure than most troops in the past. My dad's troop in the early 1940s walked to all their camp outs. Any adventure beyond 10 miles out of town was unheard of. So I'm wondering how we should look at today's adventure in perspective of today's program. Barry

Your words. Barry

First off, we will get back to your offensive insinuation of the other unit. Nothing less than bigotry and religious intolerance as far as I'm concerned. You have NO integrity in this forum in a discussion of judging others. 2nd, HOW DO YOU KNOW, YOU HAVEN'T TOLD THE SCOUTS!. It doesn't matter how you announce it, the other families have a right to know. Your shower comments are irrelevant since the other scouts don't know. Your example of how you are handling this matter is exactly my problem with the BSA handing this kind of responsibility to the volunteers. Keeping secrets like this in the program creates a huge risk. Someone is going to get hurt and quite frankly, there is a serious risk of safety here. Don't use this No Sex In Scouting to defend your recklessness. Are you standing over all the scouts in their tents at night. You do know that the BSA get a fair number of scout to scout sexual abuse calls. It's not always about actions, but perception. I am amazed. Does the District or Council leaders know. Is this standard procedure in other units? Shesh! Barry