Eagledad

Hmm, morally bankrupt. Coming from someone who admits little patience with religion or God, I don't know what that means. I'm sure you are a pleasant fello in person. As for the rest of your post, I didn't say nor imply any of those thoughts. However, I have been consistent in saying that many here are willing to sacrifice program quality to go coed. Yes, I think for some parents, going coed is a willing sacrifice for convenience. For some it is a willing trade for cultural ideology. And for some the sacrifice is the price for balancing the economics. All I ask for is honesty in these discussion while defending your position. I believe Boy Scouts to be the best program for building men of character and leaders of integrity. I have been a youth leader, sports coach, and a Scout leader. I fully appreciate the challenges of helping youth mature, and I believe the Scout program is one of the best designs for getting adults up to speed to develop young boys into mature moral decision makers. Anyone who reads my post here knows I am passionate about the growth these young men get from the program. And as a result, I very much believe that the willingness to sacrifice any part of the program is self-serving and nothing less. Barry

The rumor was fueled not to long after National implemented the New Scout Patrol and Venture Patrol. The NSP starts troops in the direction of segregated age based patrols on a natural easy path of moving to aged based programs like Venture Patrols or even Venturing Crews. I once ask a professional about the rumor and his response was he had not heard that, but it could easily be one of a flurry of ideas thrown out at National. If I were to guess why the program hasn't gone that direction (if National were truly thinking of going that path), it would because 2/3 of newly created Venturing crews fail in their first five years. Simple economics. Barry

Makes sense. There was also a rumor about 20 years ago that National planned to end the troop program at age 14, thus forcing scouts who wanted to continue scouting into Venturing. Going coed would make that an easier policy change. Barry

Scouting is the only place for a youth to learn how to interact with diverse groups? Youth spend their whole day interacting with diverse groups. Where does it say that scouting's goals are to teach interacting with diverse groups? Scouting's goals are to guide young men in the habit of using law and oath in all their decisions "ALL THE TIME AND TO ALL PEOPLE. I am convinced by my personal observations that a moral decent mannered "role model" has far more impact on a boy developing habits of a moral decent mannered person to all people then mixing that same boy in diverse groups hoping for the same conclusion. Of course the answer is making sure even coed programs have moral decent mannered role models. But as I learned and witnessed, human nature doesn't have the equal respect for opposite gender role models. It's a simple truth that women are different from men. Learning those difference in the nurturing atmosphere with the proper role model encourages the kinds of natural behavior that is required for a positive interaction. I detest the implication that single gender organizations are morally wrong as suggest by many so call progressive minded idealist. I detest the idea that a single gender youth organization is less capable of building men of integrity. And I detest the sacrifice of a program that can have so much impact on a boy going into manhood simply because of pop-culture idealism. I also detest allowing a small group of individuals to direct this change in a program with the tradition of building integrity in its youth without feeling any accountability is required. Barry

Apologies on the commas. I don't think the vast majority here believe that, but it was mentioned by a few active scouters. Which is why the discussion it bizarre to me. How can adults who really think that Boy Scouts is bad for boys become Scout leaders. Trolls maybe. Scouting works very well when it is used as designed. But I truly wonder how many units today function as designed. I sure don't feel any love from National with their support. Maybe it's right for the BSA to turn into an after school camping program at this time him our culture because it seems to have lost its soul. I hope the name is changed so that we scouts and scouters of this program can identify our experience under different specific program. Barry

My friend is also a Scoutmaster of a very boy run program who teaches ages and stages for the council. He is an Eagle Scout with other youth honors, so he clearly understand how the outdoors works. But as I stated earlier, he says the role modeling aspect of growth is hugely important to troop age scouts. Which is why the Adult part of the methods is so important to the program. He explained that while female ASMs are fine for a program, the youth brain searches for role models to learn behavior and tends to discount role models that don't appear import to that youths future. A scoutmaster is by default considered the dominant role model (for both Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts). It's fairly complicated, but his point is that Troops should be very picky about selecting adult leaders because the impact and nature of their son's behavior growth depends greatly on those role models. But what I find offensive in the tone of the discussion is the personal opinions are driving policy changes over accepted professional practices. It's not like Scouting has never talked about role models, character building, and scouting values of oath and law. Now all that is suddenly nonsense. Quit honestly, I rather folks just admit they support the liberal doctrine and don't really care about growth and building character. I can't can accept that type of resoning because at least it's honest. Barry

You lost me on the first. My expert says that pre puberesent youth (both GIRLS and boy) learn 90% (give or take) of their behavior by watching dominating role models. AND that effect doesn't have near as much impact when the role models are the opposite gender, which is why I'm not in favor of female scoutmaster for a boys patrol. It's no like this stuff is new, there are literally hundreds of studies that support the high impact of girls and boys learning when they aren't in coed groups. I can only conclude that emotion drive adults to act in the against nature. Even worse is the idea that the only way a boy can politely and productively interact with girls is mixing them together on campouts. That makes no sense to me at all. Barry Barry

And your expertise on the subject? Because my child psychologist college professor friend whole heartily disagrees. I think as a culture we are failing miserably because how does a person who lives up to the oath and law at all times not know how to politely and productively interact? Someone else here truly believe that groups who are together for a single interest are dangerous because all they do is conspire against other groups. Is that what Badon Powell was doing by creating BOY SCOUTS. Our culture is a mess. Do we really believe that boys and girls will learn better behavior simply because they are mixed? Especially with adults who think that being coed inspires better behavior than practicing the oath and law. No wonder National is lost. Barry

I'm curious of what the progressives on this forum, who claim all males scouting is sexist, think of this quote from the Girls Scouts. Barry

It's a way of teaching communication through speaking. I'm not sure of the concern, it's also how the scouts contact MB Counselors, and adult assistants like camping assistant, advancement, BOR leaders and speakers. Our troop has done this 30 something years. Barry

Hashtagscouts explained it perfectly. Barry

I don't understanding your post Mike, doesn't a coed program include dad (male leader) and Mom (female leader) with their son and daughter scouts all in the same troop? Is bringing Tiger Cub sister or brother really much of a stretch for a family scouting program? Barry

If I were still a Scoutmaster, the title of the SM Minute would be, "can a person follow the Scout Oath and Law and still act out with hatred?". Barry

I am assuming that National isn't thinking that way, but just saying "Family" implies an image to inexperienced adults that doesn't align with the program manuals. I'm not sure the image can be helped. It's hard enough changing parents perception of a patrol method program after coming from a Cub Scout experience. Now we are changing to a likely program of brother, sister, mom and dad all campout together in the Troop. Bringing along little brother and sister cub scouts is easily going to be considered an acceptable part of the program as well. qwazse is right on target. Barry

I don't think so. The Girls Scouts, dressed basically the same as described above, follow the tan shirt Boy Scouts in the 4th of July parade every year. The girls look like a rag tag unorganized group thrown together overnight for the event. I've noticed that even todays movies and TV shows dress the Girls Scout characters in the old traditional green skirt uniforms. I expect because the old style uniform identifies them as Girls Scouts more than the home made looking t-shirts. Maybe that is why the girls want to join the BSA. I proudly wore my dads early 1940s Boy Scout shirt in the 1970s. Other than the cotton material, it pretty much look the same. Barry

Interesting you posted this. Just this weekend there was a small discussion of the "family" being used now in Boy Scouts and most agreed that it brings images of Webelos style camping for troops. Barry

I can't believe I'm saying this, but for the first time since I've been in scouting, I believe it is time that the volunteers take an accounting of who these people at National are and their real motivation behind the policy changes. Maybe it's time to strategize an organized accounting (resistance). Maybe a trip to Erving is required for a show of opinion by those who give one hour each week. Barry

Those who say such things don't understand the power of unity or belonging. Did the football players or baseball players dressed in a scouting uniform during their game? Even the brief moments of belonging on a sand lot team that was just divided into shirts and skins provides some sense unity and brotherhood. The uniform is very important to the patrol method. Who doesn't feel a bit of pride and unit when a group of scouts sits near them at a restaurant? If it weren't for the uniform, how would we know they were brothers? Barry

We also had several example of high altitude sickness, there are many different types. One scouts became ill with High altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) on a Philmont trek. There is quite a story of how the crew got him down and can be found on the internet somewhere. I was not on this crew, but they made stretcher out of their crew equipment and carried him down 6000 feet to an ambulance. It took a full day and their were aided by several other crews along the way. The scout is fine, but the trek identified some heart issues. But the most pronounced clear case of altitude sickness I ever witnessed was with a scout at Camp Alexander which is 8200 ft. This young man was a wonderful scout who enjoyed the program and had a great sense of humor. This kid had been looking so forward to summer camp. But he was so homesick (so we thought) that the camp staff suggested we keep a 24 hour watch on him for his depression. Nothing we did changed this scouts very poor attitude of the camp. It made no sense to us until we were driving home and just as soon as we drove down past 5000 ft. The old bright happy scout came back to us. It was just as qwazse said, if you haven't seen it, you don't quite believe it. That experience occurred early in my scout leader career, so it prepared me for several altitude sickness situations in my future. Barry

That's good. Barry

Great suggestion. As a result of job transfers, we had three really good CCs leave the pack in 18 months. There was no impact to the program because each CC selected an assistant/replacement when they started just incase they were to suddenly leave the unit. That worked well for us in both the Pack and Troop. Barry

That is an interesting perspective. I'm not suggesting your are wrong, you are probably right. But this is the downfall of the current BSA as we know it because I think it's crazy any scout would stay in the program only for the Eagle when he would otherwise get out. I think the BSA has lost it's soul. So maybe it was inevitable that it turn into an after school program. Barry

A campaign hat by itself at any distance doesn't say uniform or Boy scouts. Start with a shirt and unit numbers. Then go from there. By the way, I don't know any council that doesn't have access to funding or retired uniforms to help poor families. There are plenty of local scouters willing to help. I have even offered to help units on this forum. So I agree this article appears a bit disingenuous. Barry

Eagle, what do you think is the motivation behind parent #1? Barry

The whole post feels of emotional ramblings, but since Scourge implies boys without girls in the scouting program don't know how to act around girls, what about the boys who aren't in scouting? And, if boys don't know how to act without girls in the scouting program, what about the girls in the girls scouts? Seems we have solved most of the worlds problems simply by the BSA taking the girls from the GUSA. Will these same people hound the GUSA with the same reasoning? Barry