Eagledad

Personally I think the I&P section is healthy, especially during these times. It is intended to be a safe place to learn and understand how others think differently. I think one reason other threads aren't as active is because new members feel some hostility in the answers to their questions. So, they don't hang around. I'm sure I'm part of the problem also. Where the I&P goes off track is when posts get personal forcing additional responses to defend or equalize the offending post. Still, I think the positives outweigh the negatives. I would love to experiment one thread with a rule that each poster only gets one post to express their opinion, and then see how the discussion tracks. I really have no idea, but it would be a fun experiment. Barry

It's not so much orchestrating the game differently, but allowing the freedom to experiment with decisions without interference of girls. I know from experience that the choices youth make will very greatly depending whether the opposite sex is within the vicinity. How many of us have watch our own children change their demeanor in some of the activities when we as their parents got near them? Same goes with Girl Scouts. Barry

Has any boy of the scout age ever felt they needed more character? Scouting is an adult program designed to develop boys into men of character (A game with a purpose). The attraction for boys is the adventure. The exhilaration of experiencing the independence for making responsible decisions is what keeps them in the program after the exhilaration of adventure becomes balanced with normality. Barry

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/455874/toxic-masculinity-myth-fuels-culture-wars Yah, I change the title just a bit. But the article described, at least to me, exactly what has been going on in the BSA for the last 15 years. For many of us, Boy Scouts is where a boy becomes a man of character. A man proud to be a husband, father, civic leader and a moral role model. It wasn't a boys club where male boys huddled together conspiring to bring out the worst of humanism, just as some here still believe. Scouting is a culture that challenges the masculinity of young men so that they can learn how to shape themselves into citizens of character and leaders of integrity. Scouting is a culture where young adult males find the limits of their character without the interference of guilt to prevent the lesson of learning their role in the community. Scouting was a safe place where a boy could face the limitations of maleness in a complex world without feeling guilty. It's not an anti female culture. Quite the contrary, the scout program is a pro equal culture program. It just does it by taking out out the static of multi-humanist biases and opinions until each scout can sort our their deficiencies in practicing the Scout Law and Oath, and then make a conscious change to better themselves for their future in the community. I am a full believer in building ethical and moral decision makers. I've been in the middle of the BSA cultural discussions about as long as they have been on Scouter.com. So, I know the debates. I laugh because I remember when 90 percent of the discussions on Scouter.com were in the "Patrol Method", "Cub Scouts", "Advancement", "Camping", and "Open Discussion" forums. Those were the good ol days of discussing scouting stuff. We haven't seen that in a while. I think this article describes the Scouting Cultural divide very well. I don't expect anything to change. But I think the article helps explains why some of us scouters believe the traditional program has a more positive influence on the community than this new program that is just turning into another after school youth program. Enjoy. Barry

I agree with everything said here. However, I found that messing with units at the top of their game rarely brings more success. Instead, and I pushed this to our district and council, learn what makes the unit a success and give their tips to other units. Over the years I found that district and council leaders don't always understand why particular units standout, so their advice is most often out of place. Our troop grew to have the largest group of scouts between the ages of 14 thru 17 in the council. Council's response to us was to start a Venture Crew to split off some of the scouts. What we had to explain to them that the older scouts are the heart of the program and the reason for the success of the "whole" troop. Not that we didn't encourage adventure, we average 4 to 6 adventure treks a year. We supported and encouraged any scout who wanted to join a Venture Crew outside of the troop. But we were not going to upset the format of the program that made us successful. Barry

Council has a different motivation for the split. Your packs success comes from a unique set of adults working together. Very rarely does that success continue with both units after a split. Save yourselves the hassle and risk by just continuing what you’re doing. Barry

Been there and done that. We split our pack at 150 Scouts. It wasn’t do to lack of quality. In fact, because Cubs is run by adults, it isn’t like the troop program. Typically the bigger the pack, the better the program. Our pack split because a few self serving adults wanted to be in charge of something in their life. And as it tuned out for them, they were terrible. The council supported and even pushed the split because they said it would be better for the boys. But they had a reputation for creating new units even when it wasn’t in the cub family’s best interest. Professionals get bonuses from numbers. Over the years I observed that usually one unit of a split continues to perform well and the other eventually merges back or just dies. That is true for both packs and troops. Based from my personal experience at the unit level and at the district level, don’t split. Enjoy the the success and plan a head for future growth by recruiting more leaders. Be the pack other packs envy. Be a model of success. Barry

I've never seen one on line and the BSA may have come out with a new one since the one our troop used thru 2005. But, I really believe that if the SM and the PLC worked together building their program from the SPL and PL, they will have a solid foundation for a patrol method program. In fact, I suggested the participants of my SM Specific class bring the SPL Handbook, so I could show them how much of the SM Handbook is in that book. Rare is the person who has read the whole gazillion pages of the SM Handbook. But SPL Handbook was written at the 12 year old level and can be read cover to cover in 45 minutes. These handbooks aren't full instructional guides to building a full program, but if used correctly, they simplify the basic of the program so that scouts can run the troop with less interference from the adults. My wife doesn't know this, but I bought and handed out dozens of copies of the SPL and PL Handbook to new Scoutmasters to give them a jump start toward a simple boy run patrol method program. Barry

I am sure we are NOT talking about the same book. The SPL Handbook doesn't talk about games, program themes, or activity details. The only meeting guide is the PLC Meeting guide, which as I pointed out, is four lines in the book and nothing to do with Troop Meetings. It is a guide for the SPLs responsibilities, not troop activities. It's probably 40 pages and designed to fit in the pant pocket. Between using the PLs Handbook and the SPL Handbook, most groups of boys could organize the general operations of their troop. Neither books are activities specific guides. Barry

Well, for me, it means if the boys don't use the books, somebody has to tell them and that is usually the adults. Barry

SPL “Hand”book? There is only one meeting plan that goes something like: Officer reports Patrol Leader Reports Old Business New Business Are you sure we are talking about the same thing? Barry

Teaching scouts how to run productive meetings is one of the most common weaknesses I have observed of troop leaders over the years. The SPL Handbook gives an example of how to conduct a meeting, but very few troops use the handbook. The problem with district and council JLT courses is, if the troop adults don’t know what the courses teach, rarely do the scouts bring anything back to the program. It’s not that the adults don’t support their scout’s training, they just don’t know how to let the scout mix what he just learned into the program. I really believe the best way to get the most impact from Junior Leadership courses is send the adults through them. Barry

Yes, I knew when I wrote that post that it would come off as hypocritical. But my experiences and observations occurred with many different parents over many years and was pretty consistent. And as I said, the issues I'm now learning with helicopter parents only reinforce my observations. I not only believe the troop program is about to change a lot, I believe the change will happen quickly. I base that partially from my experience observing the program after the BSA policy change to register female troop leaders. It takes around five years for major policy changes to form trends as a result of the change, and the BSA found itself dealing with trends around five years after the policy change. The new wave of training in 2000 was part of there reaction to the tends. So I believe we will see new trends as a result of these new membership policies fairly quickly. I'm already seeing it here on the forum. Barry

So you are basing your whole opinion on your personal approach to your sons program. I have dozens of parent discussions stories where I, as the SM, had to draw a line in sand to enforce the direction of the program as long as I was the SM. I have seen parents join the committee because they assumed it give them more stature to push change over the SM. You only need to go back to helicopter parent discussions to understand the struggle of keeping a program on track. Adding "family" into the program gives other members of the "family" a lot more power to suggest changes. It's not a theory, I have the t-shirts. As I write these responses, flashes of discussions with impassioned parents keep running through my mind. At least back then, I had the leader-parent barrier to give me some advantage. Barry

As I mentioned a couple months ago, the number one topic of a couple SMs I ran into was helicopter parenting. I believe the term "family scouting" in of itself will give parents more power to control the whole program. How could it not. It's one thing for a SM to tell a parent that the SM directs the program, not the parents. Now parents will feel they have more skin in the game. It's our human nature. It's inevitable. Barry

It's inevitable. The motivation to put your son into a program for building character is different than what ever motivation for the whole family joining. There are plenty of helicopter parent stories to support that reasoning. Barry

So I'm wondering, now that the boy scout program is changing into a family camping program, what activities, organizations, or groups, can boys join without their families tagging along. Sports? I don't know much about 4H, is it a family program. Are there other programs where boys make their own decisions for the purpose of learning from the consequences of the decision? Barry

The future struggle of Patrol Method is evident just in the discussion. Can a group of youth grow from their experience of working together? Of course, I have experienced it as a youth and monitored it as an adult. But in both experiences, I know what I was looking at, and looking for. I'm not sure the BSA can do much toward encouraging Patrol Method practice to future generations that haven't experienced it, much less know what it looks like. Books! I've suggested on this forum many times to letting scouts run their patrols using only the BSA handbooks, only to be judged as an adult telling scouts what to do (I guess because the books were written by adults). If adults here don't trust the handbooks (and why are they even in the BSA), then how can we hope for some kind of national consistency of applying Patrol Method. Probably 50% of my posts on this forum go toward balancing theories of applying Patrol Method. For example, I am amazed at the pontification just for how scouts should select their leaders. If the adult has that much invested just for leader selection, imagine their struggle with the rest of a scout's experience. The guidelines for selecting leaders are clearly given in their handbooks. I just don't see how the BSA can bring the adult membership as a whole together on Patrol Method without some great effort at a national level. And since Patrol Method isn't viewed as political, I don't see National giving it a lot of attention. Barry

Yes, the thread is kind of scary. I have in my scouting career been involved with removing several adults at both the Cub and Troop levels because risk toward the scouts. I'm not sure what advice to give because times have changed just in the last 15 years. Start by at least talking with the adult first. But, anyone who doesn't think the simple steps being suggested here won't give the adult a black eye is fooling themselves. I would be very surprised he would come back. Would you? I hate this part of unit responsibility. I have had many sleepless nights over the hard choices we have to make in keeping the program running strong and safe. I am sorry for all of you scouters who have to deal with these things. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Barry

Ah, how many pages of policy, procedure and guidelines are required to handhold adult leaders to one single way of scout leading? And, would that still be enough to satisfy the cynics? Growth is a continuous and unpredictable process where different methods of scout leading are required for ultimate results. Being a good scout leader requires as much experience and growth (if not more) as a scout growing into a better scout. But, as the saying goes, the adult doesn’t know what the adult doesn’t know. The program, as a whole, is only as good as the adults willingness to grow and learn. Barry .

Then growth wasn’t considered in the process. Barry

I struggle with extremist debates on this forum because that leaves the other 95 of realist and pragmatist bored and searching google for something more interesting. There are two considerations that should drive changes, especially in a patrol method program. One is simplicity for duplication. Simplicity generally requires a need for change to simplify another process or processes. If the change contributes to more complexity for the same outcome, well because boys generally take the path of least resistance, they will change it soon enough. Second, growth. My struggle with nonconforming ideas is that, more often than not, growth was not considered in the decision for the change. The troop program is a program of learning and growth. What's the point of change if nobody gets anything out of it. I personally like handbooks because that is a good starting place, and a good fallback as well for the scouts. If the adult leader doesn't want to get blamed by the scouts' frustration, then give them a handbook. One of the extremist points that I grow tired of is that the boys must make all the decisions. On this discussion, it is my opinion, that if the adult directed change results in more growth of character and decision making, than that is the direction the program should go. As much as it hurts some folks here to read, this is an adult program designed to develop boys into better men of character. Program changes should "Do No Harm" to that effort. I believe in boy run patrol method because it is the BEST method for developing growth. That being said, boy run without monitoring growth is a program of boy-run-into-the-ground. I do believe that sometime temporary changes are required. I have learned, and as a result teach, that shorter election cycles work better for new troops with young scouts because the PORs can burn out young scouts quickly. Scouting is supposed to be fun for all the ages and most 11 years olds cannot handled the demands of a mature troop. Independence is stressful for 10 and eleven year olds, so give them a break. Our scouts have found that they will add PORs to help large groups of new scouts. There are some basics to glean from there somewhere, I hope I didn't rant off too far. Barry

When I was active as the District Membership chair 15 years ago, the average longevity of a crew was three years before they started breaking down. I would say three out of five crews die within 5 years of their start date. I did quite a bit of research on this and it comes down to the adults, or should I say adult. While Troops typically hand down adult leadership from one generation to the next, crews suffer from a much smaller pool of replacement adults. I also want to add that many of the crews started in our district were a reaction to a troop trying to provide a more adventurous program for the older scouts in the troop. There are two problems with that reasoning: first trying to save a broken program with an additional new program doesn't provide a long range objectives and tends to struggle with short sighted struggles between the two programs. And second, and in my opinion a deeper problem, adults who lack the ability to provide a quality older scout troop program also lack the skills required to make the additional crew program successful. And they burn out in three years. Crews that are successful in our area are generally sponsored more by an organization or business. For example a scuba shop sponsors a scuba crew. Police sponsor a crew as well as a medical emergency crew. A few hi adventure Troop/Crew are successful, but in general, they come and go typically. How would I support the district crews if I had to do it over again, I would work to get the troops improve their older scouts program so that the crews provide additional program activities instead of the main older scout troop activities. I would strive to train the crew leaders on how support the troop instead of taking away program from the troop. I know that is not what crew leaders intended, but that is what typically happens. Once the crew program starts down the path of troop support, then the two programs can work better together. That doesn't mean the crew program would change much, it only mean that the objective would keep the programs working as more of a team. Those crews typically last as long as the troop leadership last and don't rely on the full support of the crew leadership. There are typically very good crews. As for crews that were created outside of a troop program, adult support is critical. I would check on that crew several times a year to get a feel for it's progress. Then I would try and find support for what ever the needs. Barry

My concern with PLs younger than 13 is the maturity to learn and grow from the experience. The norm is scouts of this age are doing it for other reasons than learning or growing. As a result, they have had enough after two months and have to be dragged to the finish one way or the other. If the adults don't understand this, than can make the scout sour to leadership for the rest of their scouting experience. In this case, the scout appears enthusiastic, so I', would likely encourage her to be a PL and watch from the shadows. Barry

My youngest son is 31. Probably not. However, I will look for it on a floppy somewhere in the closet. Hope I can find a computer with a floppy drive. Barry