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  2. ParkMan

    Jamboree on the Air

    I love the picture! As a Scout, I served as a Den Chief. The den leader was a big ham radio fan - he had all kinds of equipment. Every so often he'd break it out and we'd get to hear messages from around the world. I was a life long memory. You experience looks so much like that. Thanks for refreshing a wonderful memory!
  3. karunamom3

    Jamboree on the Air

    Yes! Our district made it a weekend camping program. We had 6 scouts complete the radio merit badge and 4 begin pioneering. We are in NJ and we connected to folks, some scouts, in Maine, Florida, Tennessee, Ohio, Louisiana, Canada and Germany. It was open to cubs, scouts and venturers. It was cold, but lots of fun!
  4. I don't disagree with any of what you just said. Just not sure what I can do with it. As a local volunteer, I have three choices: ignore the rules and run a program like in the old days follow the rules, but try to find solutions to the obstacles they present. blindly follow the rules, decide I can't do what I want, and run a crappy program I like choice two. So while I agree with your premise (and most often others on this forum) I find myself saying "yeah, these new rules are a pain, but how can I make them work."
  5. T2Eagle

    Supporting the Patrol Method - as Unit Commissioner

    I would be surprised if the percentage of 11 year olds who have EVER cut raw chicken at home exceeded the mid teens; I would not assume at all that they have any knowledge of how to handle raw chicken or any other fresh meat. Most of our younger scouts have never cooked anything more challenging than pancakes.
  6. Treflienne

    Supporting the Patrol Method - as Unit Commissioner

    P.S. I expect that by age 11 kids ought to have learned at home not to do "cutting tomatoes right after cutting raw chicken" and the importance of handwashing after using the facilities. However, since most of our families have dishwashers that do the santizing for you, they may not have learned how to wash dishes by hand.
  7. The people in the safety bubble focus on their topic, which is not program. This is the age of the lawsuit and BSA is a prime target. However, we may die off in total safety. The safest mode would be no activities whatsoever. I was told that I was to help the Bell System function, not just say "no." We had over 1,000,000 employees and almost 90,000 motor vehicles out in the public, so risk has an issue. My boss, the General Counsel, reminded me regularly that there was a business to run. A compromise would be to have the two adult "supervisors" located out of sight of the Scouts at all "activities." BP would approve were he with us.
  8. Treflienne

    Supporting the Patrol Method - as Unit Commissioner

    Yup. It's that raw chicken that I am concerned about. Even if you keep the raw chicken well isolated during food prep, you still have raw chicken on the cutting board and the knife. That meal, when you wash dishes, you make sure you wash the chicken-contaminated stuff last, so that no one's personal dishes are contaminated with raw chicken. But by the end of the dishwashing, all the dishpans are contaminated with salmonella (if you ignore the sanitizing rinse.) So after meal #2, when you wash dishes, all the scouts personal dishes become contaminated with salmonella. So at meal #3, everyone has salmonella to eat. As much as I believe in letting the scouts figure things out, the point at which the raw chicken seemed to be on the verge of spreading was the point at which I stepped in to give some specific directions. I agree. But still, failure to properly wash dishes (and properly sanitize your dishpans) is also a source of trouble.
  9. The adult as resource seems perfectly in line with TPM.
  10. TAHAWK

    Supporting the Patrol Method - as Unit Commissioner

    Good points. Still the real professional advice seeks to prevent cross-contamination by killing the bacteria that got there by the means you discuss. The jamboree in question had kids defecating in portable toilets well over 120ºF, impelling a rush by the kids to get out. Also. hand-washing facilities were not generally provided (The troop I was with had a hand-washing station using soap and Lysol, and the leaders (boys, that is) enforced use as a condition of entering the troop site. Underwear was being washed by Scouts by hand at the sub-camp water point SE of our troop site. We took it on ourselves to spray the water point 4-5 x/day with chlorine solution as reporting the behavior had no result.
  11. DuctTape

    Oktoberfest Meal

    nice! Next move is to do it over an open fire. In some aspects it is easier as there is more room; the pots/pans aren't jammed in next to each other and you can have 3 ppl cooking simultaeneously. If you can't have a fire tho, I suppose you are stuck with the 3 burner.
  12. Yesterday
  13. desertrat77

    Advice for a new wood badger

    Kudos to the PD, handled the situation like a champ! But Mr/Ms Pontificator...ugh. They cannot bear the thought of scouters a) tending to the business of their unit and b) having free time. Unit level scouters must put up with mandatory training/harangues at work, they certainly don't need it at a scouting event. Involuntary attendance, especially.
  14. DuctTape

    Supporting the Patrol Method - as Unit Commissioner

    To put risk in perspective, most foodborne illness can be traced to food preparation. Cross contamination and/or sanitation related to the food preparer. Camp chefs not washing hands after using the latrine, and/or cutting tomatoes right after cutting raw chicken is most likely. Not using chemical rinses in cleaning the pots/pans in the woods is the least likely cause of foodborne illness. Ecoli et al does not spontaneously appear into a pot or utensil with leftover food fragments. It must be transferred. This happens during food prep. No matter how well the cooking implements were cleaned, failure to follow safe serve food prep makes any cleaning regimen futile.
  15. Jameson76

    Advice for a new wood badger

    Not too many years ago at summer camp we had something like that happen. We had a new Dad who was keeping up with the first year scouts. They have a 2 hour program in the morning, request is to at least have 1 leader there if there are any behavior or attention concerns, staff brings them to the center of the area, they go back to the patrol they are working with. Basically the leaders sort of hang out, chat, do e-mails, some do some work, etc. He came back to the site and told us how one person who was WB staffer, on their Council training staff, etc etc and felt as there were adult leaders there, training must be done. She was very insistent and persistent. Their version of discussions and making sure all were graced by their knowledge. The area director was not really sure what to do about this. After comments to the camp, on the second day the program director stepped in, if they wanted to do training, that was fine but they needed to do it in another area and the PD would be glad to make the announcement at the morning leader meeting. Just needed to know the subject so interested folks could attend. Nobody was interested.
  16. Cubmaster Pete

    Where would you go?

    I am. That's what frustrates me the most. I have no idea what the increase will be. Had we known much earlier, we could have more time to spread an increase out over time. Now, I have a month. And if it's too significant a bump, the money is not there to recharter. I got to think most packs don't budget for an increase like this. If it'd not too bad, we will manage.
  17. Eagle94-A1

    Advice for a new wood badger

    Going from memory. Book had event descriptions which included an image, links and citations to help the scouts prepare, and how it would be scored. Each event had a page. Also had inspection sheets, registration info, and score cards. And short section on sheath knives. The addendum dealt with questions adults, and a few youth, had. To be honest, the adults were more of a challenge than the youth. The scouts wanted to know what the prizes were going to be for the cook off and Halloween costume contest at campfire. All the rest of the addendums were because of adults. Sadly a lot of what I consider common sense rules, i.e. no vehicles in campsites, no boating allowed except for the event, tomahawk throwing is a shooting sport with range rules in place, had to be in the book because of issues in last camporees. Apparently common sense ain't common any more.
  18. So perhaps I meet with members of PLC before their meeting to plant seeds of ideas for outings and activities? Our Scouts have no idea of some opportunities we have around here.
  19. gpurlee

    Where would you go?

    I am the chartered organization representative for our units, vice-chair of the church board and a long time Scouter. As a sponsor, we have hosted Scouting continuously since 1911. We view it as an outreach ministry to the youth and families of our community. The following is our thinking at this time: The Scout troop has adequate reserves and can probably handle increased costs between $50 to $75 per Scout and Scouter. We will certainly have to look at our fund-raising capabilites in the future. Our Cub pack was totally re-organized this year. The good news is that we now have 50 active Cubs. The challenge is that many of these families are already under financial strain We have a LOT of children being raised by grandparents. And single parents with as many as four Scout age children. The church gave the pack $1,000 for supplies, training and scholarships to help the pack reorganize because the pack essentially had no monies. Unfortunately, even before the news of the national fee increase, we were already very concerned about the ability of the pack to recharter and to help families participate in the program. Nevertheless, we are determined to attempt to re-charter but realize that we may face an uphill battle. I wonder how many other units are in the same position? Our plan includes meeting immediately with key leadership after we get information from the local council on anticipated fees. We are looking at a combination of scholarship funds, potential assistance from the council if any is available (which they are hopeful), fund-raising and approaching friends and potential donors for one time assistance. And implementing a plan for next year. We will discuss this issue with our parent committee and the council on ministries next week to finalize our plan. With nly a month before registration and fees are due, we feel that we will probably have our backs against the wall if there is a significant increase. From the perspective of five decades of Scouting experience, this is the greatest challenge in Scouting that I can remember since the 1970's when we lost half of our Boy Scout membership in the council at the same time that nationally our numbers plummeted. However, this time feels more serious in many ways. A perfect storm scenario seems to be emerging with the loss of the LDS and several other long term sponsors locally, a flood of lawsuits across the nation and an increasingly tarnished image. I hope that the national council is successful in developing a long term strategy in dealing with what feels clearly like a major crisis, is as transparent as possible with stake holders incuding families and Scouters and seeks input from us. However, my perception is that there is a feeling that options at this stage are very limited and we run a real risk of being forced into a survival mode as an organization. I hope I am wrong.
  20. Thanks for sharing this. I think it is well said. Given recent G2SS decisions this is more difficult to accomplish. What does it take for youth & adults to develop a working relationship such that it becomes possible for the adults to still be present and achieve the same results? If adults make it clear to the Scouts that the Scouts are really in charge or certain decisions does that then provide the starting point for a more capable youth leadership team?
  21. TAHAWK

    Supporting the Patrol Method - as Unit Commissioner

    The 3rd pot, sanitizing rinse method was first rolled out in B.S.A. literature in Boys' Life. It then appeared in the early "printings" (what is normally an "edition") of the 12th Edition Boy Scout Handbook at p. 327. later "printings" of that "edition" went back to the unsafe two-pot method, then back to three pots. The 13th Edition incorrectly puts the chlorine in the first rinse, where food particles reduce effectiveness, followed by a hot, third tub. (p. 308) This incorrect method is covered in the Scouting blog. Bryan on Scouting :https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/03/30/how-to-wash-dishes-at-campsite/ For professional advice: https://stopfoodborneillness.org/news-from-stop-clean-sanitize-disinfect/ [step 4] "the activity of chlorine is dramatically affected by such factors as pH, temperature, and organic load; however, chlorine is less affected by water hardness when compared to other sanitizers, such as quaternary ammonium" http://www.fightbac.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Cleaning_and_Sanitizing_Food-Contact_Surfaces.pdf USFDA: Sanitize This third step in the 3-sink method is arguably the most important. It ensures that all harmful microorganisms are killed and can be accomplished one of two ways. Chemical sanitizing means you use a chemical solution to kill bacteria. You can use EPA-approved water sanitizers, which usually come in dissolvable tablets, or a chlorine solution. If you use a water sanitizer, simply follow the manufacturer's directions. For a chlorine solution, consult your local health codes and the table below to help you determine the solution and temperature you need and how long the dishes should soak. Chlorine test strips can also help confirm you have achieved the correct concentrations. In most cases, each dish will need to soak from 7 to 30 seconds to be completely sanitized. Virginia Department of Health: [think jamborees] 3 COMPARTMENT SINK PROCEDURES For Pots, Pans and Manual Ware Washing Pre-Scrape - Excess soil from ware – soak as long as possible. Wash - In clean, hot, soapy water. Rinse - In clean water. Sanitize - Immersion for 1 to 2 minutes in a clear chemical solution at 75°F with one of the following: a. 50 to 100 parts per million (ppm) available chlorine, or b. 200 ppm available quaternary ammonium, or c. 12.5 to 25 ppm available iodine, or d. use approved chemical sanitizing agent according to label directions. Change solutions when they become cloud or when a film appears on top. Air Dry - Do not wipe. West Virginia Department of Health: [think jamborees] Dishwashing Facilities  Use clean, warm water.  Use a three compartment sink or three clean containers.  Wash.  Rinse.  Sanitize (the correct concentration for a chlorine or bleach water is 50-100 ppm).  Follow manufacturer’s directions if other type of sanitizer is used. ALSO: https://www.alabamapublichealth.gov/foodsafety/assets/DishwashingDiagram.pdf
  22. By Larry Geiger on January 25, 2012 in Scoutmastership,The Patrol System Adult leaders often say things like; “I don’t override the boys decisions at all. ” “I asked them what they wanted to do.” “This was their decision.” What most of us fail to recognize is that many of these ‘boy led’ decisions were probably coerced, at least in part, by the presence of adults when they were discussed. It’s not that the adults shined bright lights in their eyes or twisted their arms behind their backs – it is much more subtle than that. When adults are present youth leadership – the Scouting way- is not happening. Say what? You mean when I am in the room listening and not talking I am somehow affecting the outcome of their decision making process? Yes! So I want to suggest that you lead by walking away. Let Me explain: When adults are listening, watching or talking Scouts are instinctively looking for the assent and approval of the adults. This is a result what they do at School and at home; listen to adults and seek their approval. So even if you say absolutely nothing at all your presence is somewhat coercive. It’s not that you are a bad person or anything – it’s just the way things are. So if we are not supposed to be around and not supposed to talk to them and not supposed to watch what they are doing, how do we do our jobs as adult leaders? Excellent question. We use very specific, scheduled, regular, and commonly understood opportunities to interact with youth leadership. Otherwise we leave them alone; alone enough that sometimes we cannot see them or hear them. I have found that one good opportunity to exercise this concept is when patrols go grocery shopping. The Scouts create a menu, estimate how much money they need, schedule a time and place, their parents drop them off and leave them to shop. No adult leaders or parents accompany them into the store. They work totally autonomously until they exit the store after successfully shopping and paying. Are you comfortable with doing something like that? What do you think would happen if you did? No adult is assigning, watching, checking, offering oversight or any other means of interference or intervention. Drop them off at the door and pick them up when they exit the store. Only the patrol leader works with his guys to get it done. A patrol leader given this opportunity is leading; if adults are present he is looking for their approval. In my experience his is true of all Scouts up to around age sixteen or so. Here’s a few of the times when adults and youth leaders talk with one another: 1. Occasional reflections with a senior patrol leader or patrol leader after a Scout meeting. 2. Scoutmaster Conferences. 3. Scoutmaster senior patrol leader two-minute chat before a patrol leader’s council. 4. Scoutmaster’s minute. 5. Troop Leadership Training. This is the Scoutmaster’s show. [BSA says the SPL should help lead the training .] 6. When a senior patrol leader or patrol leader walks over and asks the Scoutmaster a specific question or asks for help. [Note: "senior patrol leader" vs "Scoutmaster. How about "Senior Patrol Leader"?] Here’s times when you should refrain from interacting with youth leadership: 1. During patrol and troop meetings. 2. During patrol leader’s councils. [Even if they ask a question?] 3. During campouts. 4. During the troop annual planning conference. 5. During summer camp at meals/around the picnic table during the day/etc. 6. During patrol shopping trips. 7. During patrol and troop activities when a Scout is in charge. I cannot overemphasize how important it is to realize that when adults are physically present Scouts are looking for approval – not leading. Think about this, think about it a lot; When adults are physically present Scouts are looking for approval – not leading. Start observing how this happens and change the way you do things; I’d be interested to hear the results!
  23. vol_scouter

    Where would you go?

    No matter what the registration is for 2020 and beyond, I will continue to work with an inner city pack and troop. The youth need Scouting and I am helping to fulfill their needs.
  24. desertrat77

    Advice for a new wood badger

    We were at Howard AFB...beautiful country, loved it there. I agree, PCC was outstanding.
  25. The above link didn't work for some, so try this one to access the letter. (Thanks for catching, Walk) https://michiganscouting.org/a-message-from-the-council-leadership-october-20-2/
  26. walk in the woods

    possible fee increase coming

    The statement you posted says: That's because they got outed in 2018:
  27. Double Eagle

    Advice for a new wood badger

    And this is for DesertRat77, Did my time near Colon and JOTC as well as Ft Clayton in Panama. The Panama Canal Council was great. Machetes and the occasional black palm thorn through any glove or in a leg. Not to mention, NEVER SLEEP ON THE GROUND!!!
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  • Posts

    • I love the picture! As a Scout, I served as a Den Chief.  The den leader was a big ham radio fan - he had all kinds of equipment.  Every so often he'd break it out and we'd get to hear messages from around the world.  I was a life long memory.  You experience looks so much like that.  Thanks for refreshing a wonderful memory!
    • Yes! Our district made it a weekend camping program. We had 6 scouts complete the radio merit badge and 4 begin pioneering. We are in NJ and we connected to folks, some scouts, in Maine, Florida, Tennessee, Ohio, Louisiana,  Canada and Germany. It was open to cubs, scouts and venturers. It was cold, but lots of fun!
    • I don't disagree with any of what you just said.  Just not sure what I can do with it. As a local volunteer, I have three choices: ignore the rules and run a program like in the old days follow the rules, but try to find solutions to the obstacles they present. blindly follow the rules, decide I can't do what I want, and run a crappy program I like choice two.  So while I agree with your premise (and most often others on this forum) I find myself saying "yeah, these new rules are a pain, but how can I make them work."
    • I would be surprised if the percentage of 11 year olds who have EVER cut raw chicken at home exceeded the mid teens; I would not assume at all that they have any knowledge of how to handle raw chicken or any other fresh meat.  Most of our younger scouts have never cooked anything more challenging than pancakes.
    • P.S.  I expect that by age 11 kids ought to have learned at home not to do "cutting tomatoes right after cutting raw chicken" and the importance of handwashing after using the facilities.   However, since most of our families have dishwashers that do the santizing for you,  they may not have learned how to wash dishes by hand.
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