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  2. RememberSchiff

    BSA Leader Slaps Backside of Reporter on Live TV

    "...arrested Friday, Savannah police said. Tommy Callaway, 43, was charged with misdemeanor sexual battery, Bianca Johnson of the Savannah police department confirmed to CBS News. " Callaway posted bond.
  3. The justice system assumes innocence in the absence of contrary evidence presented beyond a reasonable doubt. That does not mean that we act as if the accused was actually innocent. After all, they are accused of a crime and if we acted as if they were innocent no trial would be held. Society can make whatever judgement they feel is reasonable about this guy as we are not a jury of his peers or a judge dispensing justice.
  4. The entire theory of "crime" is that it is not an offense only against the victim but is, instead, an offense against the jurisdiction or other ruler. Hence, "The Crown vs Defendant" or "The State of X vs. Defendant." More recently, some especially heinous crimes are said to be against humanity - genocide, use of weapons of mass destruction, wars of aggression. I suppose humanity and the World are close enough to be substituted, one for the other. The court typically asserting jurisdiction over such cases these days is the International Criminal Court at the Hague. However, most great powers, such as he United States, do not recognize the jurisdiction of that court.
  5. In a court, a jury, selected from the rolls of voters, would be selected by a process that hopefully produces finders of fact who are not prejudiced. The jury would decide what contact occurred and if it was reasonable for the reporter to find the contact harmful or offensive ("battery"). Of course, none of that is required here, for you or any other member.
  6. nk No. I think he is innocent until proven guilty. Until then he is "accused." That was once a societal norm. - "ethical." But societal norms change.
  7. Valid point and a good reason why we are careful to try to pick objective jurors. You are absolutely correct, BSA is not legally obligated to be objective. We are all members at BSA'S pleasure - and ours. An ancestor on my Mom's side was Sam Adams.
  8. Yesterday
  9. RememberSchiff

    BSA Leader Slaps Backside of Reporter on Live TV

    I am losing track of what scenario, real or hypothetical, that we are discussing here.
  10. I watched the video. If you pause it as he goes by, I don't think there is any way his hand is at the level of her lower back. She isn't that much shorter than him. Her back should be mostly within the frame of the video and his hand is clearly below it. We have no reason not to believe her. We have several reasons to believe him (he is facing a year in jail for one). We can discuss his guilt/innocence until we are blue in the face but that is for a court to decide. As for the BSA, they don't have to wait until he is proven guilty or not. They can look at the video and decide. They may also decide it doesn't matter as this guy clearly thought in the moment that there wasn't something wrong with unwanted contact with a stranger. That would be enough for me if I was in charge. Now, lets reflect on how we are discussing this topic. Would you react differently if this was your wife or your daughter? How would you react if this was one of your son's/daughter's leaders and they saw the video?
  11. I have stayed on the sidelines for this one, as this is a topic that is going to stir more passion than many we see here. I has been debated on multiple scouting forums, and there is very little middle ground. People either think he should be burned at the stake, or that this one (hopefully) lapse in judgement should not have lasting consequences. I agree that every situation deserves an objective look, but this quote jumped out at me. In the case of scouts clowning around and smacking each other on the rear, yes, we discuss what is appropriate and hopefully it can be a teaching moment. I deal with elementary school children all day, five days a week, and it is not unusual to have someone brought to me for putting hands on another child. Even my kindergarten and first graders understand that there are limits and consequences for passing those limits. This was not a case of a child who does not know touching someone you do not know, (or even if you do know them, not without permission) is unacceptable. Other than reading the first article, I have not followed this, so I do not know if there are any criminal charges pending. If so, I would expect them to be pleaded down. Regardless of anything that may or may not happen in the judicial system, I have to agree with BSA revoking membership. Caught up in the moment or not, this showed a distinct lack of judgement. I can only imagine the headlines if he were not removed should he get caught up in the moment and touch a scout, male or female, in the same manner.
  12. You have misinterpreted this law. Only a second "sexual battery" offense requires offender registration. Aggravated sexual battery is a different charge.
  13. Well, maybe,but a Visionary is one who sees the big picture and understands where the little pieces fit to make the big picture reach the goal. I do understand the 10 great leaders theory and can’t disagree, but one good visionary can get most volunteers of mediocre abilities to be productive because they match their skills with specific program needs. I witnessed a visionary place a volunteer with basically no skills in a position that matched what little she had to offer. She earned the Silver Beaver for her noble effort in improving the district program. If just following the program and leadership structure was all it took to get units at the top of their game, most units would be there. But, the average volunteer can’t get their arms around the program today because it has grown to complicated. The real crime here is as you say, those special people are just waiting to be asked. That is why I said find that one adult for the troop of 4 scouts, and that person will make it a great troop again. Just needs to be asked. Barry
  14. I hope you're correct, among other thing for which I hope.
  15. mashmaster

    BSA Leader Slaps Backside of Reporter on Live TV

    OK, let's reflect it onto something else in the news. Look at the Survivor show: 4 weeks or so ago, they have footage of a guy who is all touchy feely. He is approached and denies everything and then given another shot. After that, they gang up on the accuser for over reacting. This week at the end of the show, they mention how he was kicked off the show. We have many years of blaming the accuser, "She dressed that way", ""She shouldn't have been there", "It's just lockeroom talk". In this case there is video evidence of what happened. People may or may not agree with the law, but the law is what it is. And the action was inappropriate.
  16. I suppose that a pat on the back could subjectively be an "offensive contact," but that's not the headline: "BSA Leader Slaps Backside of Reporter on Live TV." That headline is supported by one person's words and denied by the accused's words. Unless you have another video that supports the headline, it is not shown "on live TV.." I realize that "innocent until proven guilty" is no longer PC in some quarters, but even here?
  17. Thanks Barry, but there is nothing visionary about my postings. I believe in following the program and leadership structure of the organization and have found after 35 years as a volunteer that ….. it almost always works. That is how good the BSA program and leadership development process is. When I was a District Chair (crazy as it sounds, I have served in just about every adult role out there from unit leader to our national governing entity) I found that if I just had about 10 great Scouters with me, we could do anything. It just takes good cheer and confidence. We only need to have about 10 great volunteers in a District to pull it all off, and there people are just waiting to be asked. They are the unit folks who have about 4 years of experience and are looking for something new to do that goes beyond the unit. Just ask them and they will say yes. This is going to sound almost fraudulent, but when I was a District Chair we formed about 15 new units. That was about 30 years ago, and 12 of those units are still going. Let's see, that's about 10 new youth a year for 30 years times 12. So, those people are responsible for about 3,600 kids that have experienced scouting as a result. Who ever said District work was neither fulfilling nor important?
  18. RememberSchiff

    BSA Leader Slaps Backside of Reporter on Live TV

    The legal outcome would likely show gender difference matters: Tommy slaps Jenny's butt. Jenny calls police. Tommy appears in court. Jenny slaps Tommy's butt, Tommy calls police. Prosecutor considers offense trivial and does not file charges. I like to think with the BSA, gender would not matter and the disciplinary actions would be the same. My $0.02
  19. None of you took-up my challenge and made your own membership predictions with support. I believe that new growth at this point shows that the female additions to our program are having a great impact on our membership and I further believe this will ultimately more than offset the recent and near-future departures. There is no math to "de-fuzz". We will lose a significant percentage and absolute number at the turn of the year from the LDS departures and there will be doomsayers predicting our demise as a result. But, this will all be offset. Four years from now I predict we will have 35% female presence in Scouts BSA and will be net bigger than we are now. These are not careless predictions. They are based on my close observation as a Scoutmaster of a 30-girl Troop regarding how youth and leaders have embraced the all-girl Troop roll-out. This is going to work very well and
  20. OK Jenny slaps Tommys butt during a Venture crew meeting. I see no difference what the gender is.
  21. @Hawkwin I'm not sure what you are trying to get at by clipping each quote and restating them as if your extension in a particularly offensive direction reflects my intent. I mean it's okay if you find them patently offensive. And I'm fine with you making arguments by extension. It's that I don't know what you think is the most important facet for me or anyone else to address. Since this forum doesn't offer sub-replies walking through each point is kinda hard to do. (FWIW, the forums once had a sub-reply feature, and most folks found it very confusing.) It's gonna take a while to sort it out. Again, not trying to discourage. Just letting you know that if you're expecting a point-counterpoint, it's not coming soon.
  22. RememberSchiff

    BSA Leader Slaps Backside of Reporter on Live TV

    IMO, a closer relate would be scout Tommy slapped the butt of scout Jenny. Jenny called the police.
  23. Let's relate this to scouts - If scout A slapped the butt of scout B do you call the police? Call the 1-800 of YPT? Have a discussion with both and help them come to some conclusion.
  24. RememberSchiff

    BSA Leader Slaps Backside of Reporter on Live TV

    Yes, my understanding, the location would determine whether a battery charge or a sexual battery charge would be filed.
  25. So you think the accused is being wrongfully accused? Why?
  26. Should it matter? Does the so-called "accused" get to tell the victim that it is less offensive because it was above her belt instead of below and he used something other than his hand to hit her? Maybe she just needs it mansplained to her.
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    • "...arrested Friday, Savannah police said. Tommy Callaway, 43, was charged with misdemeanor sexual battery, Bianca Johnson of the Savannah police department confirmed to CBS News. " Callaway posted bond.
    • The justice system assumes innocence in the absence of contrary evidence presented beyond a reasonable doubt.  That does not mean that we act as if the accused was actually innocent.  After all, they are accused of a crime and if we acted as if they were innocent no trial would be held.   Society can make whatever judgement they feel is reasonable about this guy as we are not a jury of his peers or a judge dispensing justice.  
    • The entire theory of "crime" is that it is not an offense only against the victim but is, instead, an offense against the jurisdiction or other ruler.  Hence, "The Crown vs Defendant" or  "The State of X vs. Defendant."  More recently, some especially heinous crimes are said to be against humanity - genocide, use of weapons of mass destruction, wars of aggression.  I suppose humanity and the World are close enough to be substituted, one for the other.  The court typically asserting jurisdiction over such cases  these days is the International Criminal Court at the Hague.  However, most great powers, such as he United States,  do not recognize the jurisdiction of that court.
    • In  a court, a jury, selected from the rolls of voters, would be selected by a process that hopefully produces finders of fact who are not prejudiced.  The jury would decide  what contact occurred and if it was reasonable for the reporter to find the contact harmful or offensive ("battery").  Of course, none of that is required here, for you or any other member.  
    • nk No.  I think he is innocent until proven guilty.  Until then he is "accused."   That was once a societal norm. - "ethical."   But societal norms change.  
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