All range activities are suspended

[InquisitiveScouter]

15 minutes ago, Navybone said:

I agree with your concern, especially if there is the mentality of zero risk.  But I applaud BSA instituting a safety stand down when someone is hurt on a range (archery or rifle/shotgun).  The stand down is a good opportunity to learn about what occurred at the Summit, and ensue that everyone has the right procedures and training in place.  The best defense against any effort to reduce range activities is demonstrating mature processes that are not afraid to be self critical and truly place safety first.  A stand down like this is a best practice among many professional organizations (police, military, etc) for a reason.

My read is that this is a stand down to assess BSA's corporate exposure.  From the limited facts available, it appears BSA (Summit) was renting out the property to a third party, versus this being an event conducted under the auspices of BSA.  Very different scenarios with very different implications...

You'll notice the letter does not direct SEs to pause unit-level RATS events.  That may be an oversight, or it may be deliberate.  We cannot know until they issue further guidance.

If it was an event conducted under the auspices of, then the stand down is warranted.  However, it should have been extended to unit-level activities if that is the case.

If it was not conducted under the auspices of, then this a "cover your butt" move to determine legal exposure, which would explain the "...camps and properties" verbiage.

[Eagle94-A1]

53 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Very doubtful this safety pause will affect Summer Camp activities... they know where their bread is buttered 😜 

That is true. I remember when they attempted to change the old YP rules, which allowed 18-20 year olds to be considered as a 2nd adult, to the current policy of only 21 year olds count. National made the policy effective March 1, 2018, but there was so much push back from local councils, and the HA bases, where units already planned for their 2nd adult to be 18-20, and they wanted their money back if they had to cancel. National pushed the implementation date to September 1, 2018.

[Jameson76]

Some new background on this, and apparently this is not 100% just related to shooting sports, though that is what is impacted right now.

From what I understand this concept of the "Stand down" is a BSA National initiative.  If there is an aquatics incident in some state at BSA camps / property, ALL aquatics in all camps will stand down for a few days.  If there is a mountain bike incident, ALL mountain biking will stand down for a few days.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

No information of actual process for what additional training or actions will be taken in a stand down, how long a stand down will be, or what will trigger the lifting of a stand down.  This is somehow related to new insurance policy and coming out of bankruptcy.  As we can all see a good bit of confusion.

As a side note for camps that have staff in camp school RIGHT NOW for training, they are basically out of luck.  Just sitting around and talking, no range time or any or the actual nuts and bolts as the range is effectively closed.

[RememberSchiff]

Random thoughts about risk:

Were scout activities going on at Bechtel Summit while Total Archery ran their non-scouting event?

Were scouts participating in that non-scout event?

Who registered the event participants?

The posted executive order applies only to scout camps and properties,  so a council could  have their Shooting Clays fundraiser moved to a local sportsmen club? A lot of council Shooting Clays fundraisers are scheduled for May and June.

Edited May 22 by RememberSchiff

[qwazse]

The liability question will be does BSA have some operating procedure on a national level that increases the risk of such incidents?

Renting to outside groups is one procedure. But, are ranges being allowed to be built and operated in a way that now increases incidents?

Once shooting sports is addressed, we’ll have to take a hard look at acquatics. National has offloaded guard training on to ARC. It’s good, but is it reducing risk.

[mrjohns2]

Stand downs are very standard in the area of industrial construction I work. If there is an injury or serious near miss, a stand down is issued. Initial facts are gathered and any prudent immediate follow up is taken before restarting. 
 

For very serious incidents, sometimes multiple common sites are on stand down until imitate follow-up is understood or complete.

[SSScout]

 SA/BSA did the right thing, PAUSE and THINK...  The time for panic is later. The time for concern is now.  

Someone is shot thru the head and Total Archery Challenge  CONTINUES ? ?   

As a past CSDC Archery Range Officer, I have stories, but thankfully nothing like this.  Avoidance of accidents is the goal, but sometimes "things happen".  People don't want to walk all the way around  6foot tall stakes and yellow tape .  People want to get CLOSER to get a good photo of Sammy Scout....  I trained my staff to PAY ATTENTION, and they did.  The Cubs listened and PAID ATTENTION.  Was I strict?  You betcha.  Overly so?  You betcha....  

I remember a Jamboree where a too tall tent pole met a too short electric wire over an area where camp should never have been assigned.... 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

20 minutes ago, SSScout said:

 SA/BSA did the right thing, PAUSE and THINK...  The time for panic is later. The time for concern is now.  

Someone is shot thru the head and Total Archery Challenge  CONTINUES ? ?   

As a past CSDC Archery Range Officer, I have stories, but thankfully nothing like this.  Avoidance of accidents is the goal, but sometimes "things happen".  People don't want to walk all the way around  6foot tall stakes and yellow tape .  People want to get CLOSER to get a good photo of Sammy Scout....  I trained my staff to PAY ATTENTION, and they did.  The Cubs listened and PAID ATTENTION.  Was I strict?  You betcha.  Overly so?  You betcha....  

I remember a Jamboree where a too tall tent pole met a too short electric wire over an area where camp should never have been assigned.... 

 

Pause and think, sure... but why not specifically extend that pause to unit level activities as well?

Yes, there are units out there that conduct their own RATS events.

[RememberSchiff]

As I understand yesterday?, Council SE's were emailed a self-checklist regarding resuming range operation....but hasn't NCAP camp certification already or will soon be doing this or maybe the checklist focused on third-party oversight?

8 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Pause and think, sure... but why not specifically extend that pause to unit level activities as well?

Yes, there are units out there that conduct their own RATS events.

That Hawaiian troop which tragically held their own range event resulted in the camp range being closed for more than a year.

Will Total Archery Challenge return to Summit next year?

[InquisitiveScouter]

26 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

As I understand yesterday?, Council SE's were emailed a self-checklist regarding resuming range operation....but hasn't NCAP camp certification already or will soon be doing this or maybe the checklist focused on third-party oversight?

That Hawaiian troop which tragically held their own range event resulted in the camp range being closed for more than a year.

Will Total Archery Challenge return to Summit next year?

I spoke with a professional buddy of mine who has been around a while ;P.  He opined, since the end of tour permits, councils have no idea what events their units are engaged in...  He also said, other than a mass email, how would they get hold of units anyway?

[Matt940]

We're baaaack! The pause lasted 24 hours. Councils can resume RATA activities once the Scout Exec reviews their RATA Policy and signs some sort of certification.

Let's make some noise this summer!

[Navybone]

3 minutes ago, Matt940 said:

We're baaaack! The pause lasted 24 hours. Councils can resume RATA activities once the Scout Exec reviews their RATA Policy and signs some sort of certification.

Let's make some noise this summer!

Fantastic.  I just hope that the stand down does improve safety in all range operations

[Frost]

I don't want to say too much because I do not know what my directors would think but this is what I feel comfortable sharing:

I have been at a camp in Cali since May 3, becuase my finals as a college student ended insanely early so I came here for the month instead of sitting around until June 1. They run a spring program along with the weekends, so I've been working where I can. I am the archery RSO for the summer, so I run the archery range when the program allows and in the kitchen the rest of the time. This week we had no kids wanting to do archery so I have been at the kitchen all week. My area director has been at camp school this entire month for training, and on Wednesday mid-day I recieved a call from her telling me to shut down all archery if I was there, immediately. Thankfully nobody was doing archery, but it was described as a "nation-wide cease fire". 

Later that day I recieved an email about it from the spring program director with further details, but no mention of TAC. 

This weekend we have a group coming that wanted to do a ton of field sports, all 4 activities (shotgun rifle bb's and archery). The schedule was emailed Thursday night with no field sports listed on it. Afternoon today I received an email that included all 4 activities again. Next week's kids wanted to do a lot of archery, as well, which I am assuming is now on again as well. 

I had no doubt we would be doing archery for the summer, but this event does make me think BSA is tightening its clutches on field sports more and more. I do not know if this is just my camp or a nation-wide thing, but I was told last summer that in 2025 (this summer) we would completely stop calling it shooting sports, we don't refer to the guns and bows as "weapons" but instead as "tools", and we do not call it shooting we call it firing. I am not comfortable with this change and I 100% disagree with it, but it seems to be the way BSA is going. At what point will they shut down the guns forever? Cub scouts (to my knowledge) are only allowed BB's and archery. When will that standard be applied to all scouts, including the teenagers? 

By the way, I disagree with the change because the scouts NEED to know the danger of these weapons. When we remove these terms it makes it seem less dangerous, even with all our stressings of the 3 rules. If you are giving a scout a .22, that scout should be told they are shooting and not firing. They should be told how dangerous this gun can be. They need to be told that if they shoot it without hearing protection their ears will receive PERMANENT hearing damage, not just "will hurt your ears!". I also understand yes they are children as young as 11 but when you entrust them with a WEAPON that can KILL somebody they need to know that, otherwise they will treat it as a nerf gun. 

I could go on about this for ages. But to me, this event won't improve safety in any noticeable way. It will simply strengthen BSA's case to shut down all shooting sports, for good. 

Also, communication-wise, it might just be me but I think BSA needed to do a lot more communication than whatever little tendrils they did. None of what I have learned has been from official channels, it has been from forums like this and word of mouth. 

[RememberSchiff]

@Frost  welcome to scouter.com.

[yknot]

On 5/24/2025 at 2:02 AM, Frost said:

By the way, I disagree with the change because the scouts NEED to know the danger of these weapons. When we remove these terms it makes it seem less dangerous, even with all our stressings of the 3 rules. If you are giving a scout a .22, that scout should be told they are shooting and not firing. They should be told how dangerous this gun can be. They need to be told that if they shoot it without hearing protection their ears will receive PERMANENT hearing damage, not just "will hurt your ears!". I also understand yes they are children as young as 11 but when you entrust them with a WEAPON that can KILL somebody they need to know that, otherwise they will treat it as a nerf gun. 

I agree.  I have had the same issue with, for example, calling venomous snakes "danger noodles" or "spicy noodles". It's an attempt to Disney-fy things that are real world risks whose dangers should not be minimized.