Why do we need the Citizenship in Society merit badge?

[skeptic]

25 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

Citizenship in Society is my daughter's favorite merit badge that she has earned. It's a subject matter she is passionate about. The merit badge counselor invited me to sit in on their session (I asked my daughter if it would be okay with her). When the counselor puts a session together for scouts, she ensures there is sufficient diversity within the group to have meaningful discussion, so that everyone is able to get out of it more than they put in. I was pleasantly surprised by the thoughtful discussion, but at the same time you could see a thoughtfulness difference and a participation difference between those who are regularly interacting with others who are different from themselves vs. those who are not.

I think much of the learning from others as well as the true in-depth discussion can't really be accomplished at the unit level, particularly in any kind of consistency across all units in a meaningful way, due to unit size, lack of time for true in-depth discussion or lack of adults who are capable of facilitating the discussion. It pains me to say this but I know way too many people involved in scouting who actually need to take this merit badge, so I wouldn't expect them to be capable of guiding scouts in the manner in which this merit badge requires.

This is a valid point, and I tend to agree.  It is sad though that what should be accomplished simply by living the tenets and mentoring the youth as we should is found to need to be fed to them instead of them acting and learning on their own.  Again, as noted, many of our adult members fall short on these basic ideas, thus I suppose the merit badge.  I might suggest that perhaps the badge material could be a leader session at camp or offered in some manner at RT?  

 

[TheGreenWizard]

On 12/9/2022 at 6:52 AM, 5thGenTexan said:

This sort of thing might already be covered in the Law and Oath, but in my observations those points are not sticking with the Scouts... (and many adults).  Reciting it and the start of meetings and living it are not the same, and I don't see many living it.  I have a great deal of what adults think is included in the requirements for Cit in Society and its obvious they really haven't looked at what is really there.  

So, no... its not redundant and honestly I can think of a lot of adults in my own Unit who could benefit from the exercises.

     You have to understand; a true scout should always live by the Oath and Law. That is the true point of scouting; To prepare young boys (and now girls) for becoming adults, all while making friends and having fun along the way. If they don't actually live the scout Oath and Law, then they won't be able to advance in rank, provided the adult leaders are unbiased, and thus they will not advance in life either. That is on them, we don't need a merit badge for that. Most merit badges teach us skills, leadership and board of review/ scoutmaster conference questions teach us values. I also actually did read all the requirements, and am not very fond of them at all; they are still redundant in my eyes.

     The path toward good citizenship in our society is lined with the torches of Scouting. It goes up mountains, across rivers, and follows you throughout your life. By the end you are asked one question: Was it worth it? That is the Great Scoutmaster's conference for all good scouts.

[DuctTape]

If I were in charge, I would have used the CIS idea as the catalyst to merge all 3 (now 4) citizenship mBs into one grand Citizenship mB. This is probably not a popular opinion, so be glad I am not in charge. 😜

 

[TheGreenWizard]

On 12/9/2022 at 2:34 PM, DuctTape said:

If I were in charge, I would have used the CIS idea as the catalyst to merge all 3 (now 4) citizenship mBs into one grand Citizenship mB. This is probably not a popular opinion, so be glad I am not in charge. 😜

 

Would be great, except the time it would take to complete would be outrageous.

[DuctTape]

Just now, TheGreenWizard said:

Would be great, except the time it would take to complete would be outrageous.

Well, I would not have kept every single requirement. 😬

[5thGenTexan]

29 minutes ago, TheGreenWizard said:

     You have to understand; a true scout should always live by the Oath and Law. That is the true point of scouting; To prepare young boys (and now girls) for becoming adults, all while making friends and having fun along the way. If they don't actually live the scout Oath and Law, then they won't be able to advance in rank, provided the adult leaders are unbiased, and thus they will not advance in life either. That is on them, we don't need a merit badge for that. Most merit badges teach us skills, leadership and board of review/ scoutmaster conference questions teach us values. I also actually did read all the requirements, and am not very fond of them at all; they are still redundant in my eyes.

     The path toward good citizenship in our society is lined with the torches of Scouting. It goes up mountains, across rivers, and follows you throughout your life. By the end you are asked one question: Was it worth it? That is the Great Scoutmaster's conference for all good scouts.

I completely understand that.  I also know that in my observation its NOT happening.  It appears to me that Scout Law and Scout Oath are a tick box marked off as a requirement for Scout rank and never though about again.  It is not taken seriously by Scouts or adults.  The selfishness and ugly things I hear at district campouts as well as summer camp are disturbing.  

[HashTagScouts]

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

If I were in charge, I would have used the CIS idea as the catalyst to merge all 3 (now 4) citizenship mBs into one grand Citizenship mB. This is probably not a popular opinion, so be glad I am not in charge. 😜

 

Keep in mind, Family Life used to be Citizenship in the Home, so really you can just roll that in as well  

[Eagle1993]

The merit badge program for Eagle is not designed well.  I think it does little to keep youth in scouting, is redundant, boring and not aligned with the "outing" in scouting.  It is what it is.  National doesn't seem to care.  So, either scouts slog through it or Eagle factories pump out the clinics for youth who want to add Eagle Scout to their resume.  

I've heard more positive feedback about Society than other Citizenships.  However, given the group setting and Troop size, we have only had one chance to earn it... So it could catch a lot of youth by surprise if they procrastinate.

[nolesrule]

16 hours ago, DuctTape said:

If I were in charge, I would have used the CIS idea as the catalyst to merge all 3 (now 4) citizenship mBs into one grand Citizenship mB. This is probably not a popular opinion, so be glad I am not in charge. 😜

 

I think Cit in Society is different enough from the others that it should remain a distinct badge. In the same way that the former Citizenship in the Home (aka Family Life) is different. I wouldn't mind combining the other 3 although the task of paring them down so the essentials are included while not making it overly onerous for a single merit badge would be a difficult endeavor.

The only thing I specifically remember about earning the 3 Citizenships when I was a scout 30 years ago is what I did for the service requirement for Community. The vast majority of the rest was a repeat of things I learned in high school history and government classes.

[Eagledad]

15 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I completely understand that.  I also know that in my observation its NOT happening.  It appears to me that Scout Law and Scout Oath are a tick box marked off as a requirement for Scout rank and never though about again.  It is not taken seriously by Scouts or adults.  The selfishness and ugly things I hear at district campouts as well as summer camp are disturbing.  

This is a big problem, I agree. I believe a big part of the problem is adult leaders who never had a youth scouting experience. Without the experience of adventure and the social dynamics of camping in the woods, these adults have to rely on measurable experiences, which is advancement. Advancement drives annual schedules and shapes scouting activities. Character development is a function of rank and advancement sing-offs, not scouts’ choices judged within the interpretations off the law. Theses adults are afraid to let any scout not earn the Eagle. 

And you can’t blame these adults, training doesn’t emphasize growth from right or wrong choices. Allowing scouts to make choices and decisions in their activities requires giving them the freedom to define the parameters of right and wrong and adults today simply don’t allow them that freedom, partially because it’s not pushed in training.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

The merit badge program for Eagle is not designed well.  I think it does little to keep youth in scouting, is redundant, boring and not aligned with the "outing" in scouting.  It is what it is.  National doesn't seem to care.  So, either scouts slog through it or Eagle factories pump out the clinics for youth who want to add Eagle Scout to their resume.  

I’m not sure I agree here. I believe the Eagle should be a personal goal of jumping through hoops beyond the typical troop outdoor program. The troop outdoor program should be complex enough to attract the maturity of older scouts. The Eagle requirements should be more than what the typical troop outdoor program offers, and require more than the typical ambition of the average scout. Where we fail the Eagle program is we adults push the scouts to do more than their maturity wants in their program. Eagles are for above average scouts, and we adults should have the courage to let the scouts choose.

My observation is that most scouts in a program that challenges them at all ages don’t really feel the drive for Eagle until they are at least 15. Most troops think 15 is to late, but most of our Eagles had their ECOH within a few months of their 18th birthday. They were simply having too much fun to focus on the advanced Eagle requirements in their early years. Ironically, the troop that puts more focus on adventure than advancement, will have a more Eagles. A lot more Eagles because it’s really just a natural progression for the maturity of older scouts.

Barry

[yknot]

43 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

I think Cit in Society is different enough from the others that it should remain a distinct badge. In the same way that the former Citizenship in the Home (aka Family Life) is different. I wouldn't mind combining the other 3 although the task of paring them down so the essentials are included while not making it overly onerous for a single merit badge would be a difficult endeavor.

The only thing I specifically remember about earning the 3 Citizenships when I was a scout 30 years ago is what I did for the service requirement for Community. The vast majority of the rest was a repeat of things I learned in high school history and government classes.

I agree with a lot of this. I think Cit in Society is really a different animal and should remain its own. I have said before though as well as you that I think the other three Citizen badges are redundant with curriculum and should be merged. I think there's a lot that could be cut out.

I do, however, think there is an area that, given the organization's dependence on the outdoors, has to me been oddly overlooked at the macro citizenship level and that is the role of the citizen in Land Conservation and Resource Management. It might explain why so many professional scouters who come up through the program seem to have no comprehension of how to manage, preserve, and protect some of the legacy properties that they have had the privilege of owning (truly past tense in, sadly, too many cases).

[skeptic]

18 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Well, I would not have kept every single requirement. 😬

Hark back to the "Civics

" badge.  Basically the same idea.

Edited December 10, 2022 by skeptic
spelling

[skeptic]

While perhaps not on target for this thread, the comment above regarding "adults will not let scouts Not get Eagle", or something like that, is too often true.  In our litigious society, any of us around a while may have seen the legal challenges from some parents when their youth does not pass something, usually for good reason.  But society, at least ours, seems wont to make failure a non thing.  Yet some the biggest lessons in life revolve around failure, and how we respond it.  That lesson too often is no longer learned.

[BetterWithCheddar]

I know this is being re-hashed for the 5th time here, but I'll bite:

• Yes, this seems like a knee-jerk reaction from National that we all have to live with.
• Yes, there is value in the message, but it could probably be combined with other Citizenship MBs.
• Yes, kids get a lot of this same material in school and now a few more of their Troop meetings just became School 2.0.
• However, the situation is what you make of it. Find the right person to deliver the message and make it worthwhile for your Troop. Some of the best presentations I've ever attended were on subjects I initially didn't (and in some cases, still don't) have an interest in. A good speaker just found a way to make the material more appealing to me.

[nolesrule]

2 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

I know this is being re-hashed for the 5th time here, but I'll bite:

• Yes, this seems like a knee-jerk reaction from National that we all have to live with.
• Yes, there is value in the message, but it could probably be combined with other Citizenship MBs.
• Yes, kids get a lot of this same material in school and now a few more of their Troop meetings just became School 2.0.
• However, the situation is what you make of it. Find the right person to deliver the message and make it worthwhile for your Troop. Some of the best presentations I've ever attended were on subjects I initially didn't (and in some cases, still don't) have an interest in. A good speaker just found a way to make the material more appealing to me.

This one is actually very different from the other Citizenships even though it has Citizenship in the name. It's interpersonal. The others are pretty much history and civics, just at local, country and world levels. Completely different subject matters.

The Cit in Society session I sat in consisted of a Jewish female, a Chinese female and three white Christian boys. Anyone care to guess who in that group had the more advanced understanding of the topics going in and whose eyes were opened up more to things they'd never thought about or had to think about because of the discussions?

This topic can't really be done effectively via Powerpoint.  You have scouts talking to each other about various subjects and scenarios without any interference from adults other than to facilitate and prompt discussion. The scouts are learning from each other. You can't get this from a lecture or presentation.

I actually want to become a MBC/facilitator for this merit badge after having experienced it as an observer. I literally just sat there for 5 hours and never said a word (except during breaks), just listening to the scouts talk to each other. I was never bored.

Edited December 11, 2022 by nolesrule