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I would maintain that the saddest part of this issue is and will remain the victimization of our youth, and the loss of innocence and mental well-being they suffered and continue to suffer. While I lo

Bay-Lakes Council spent a long time early in the year and couldn’t come to terms. No units will be chartered by the Green Bay diocese. 

There are probably a lot of reasons for that including that as one of the largest CO groups, UMC were affected by a significant number of lawsuits and claims. Unlike the Catholic church, though, which

In reading the Catholic recommendation a few items stand out.  

  • USCCB strongly recommends that diocesan counsel consult local BSA councils and insurance carriers before approving the use of any agreements with the BSA.
  • Catholic Mutual is recommending either the Charter Agreement, as risk is mitigated by the by the ability to control leadership, program, and safe environment standards, or dissociate from the hosting of BSA Units in any form, eliminating the risk altogether.

The first bullet point should apply to all chartering organizations. The bankruptcy showed all the chartering organization to get it in writing, not just take the word of the BSA.

However, the largest Catholic insurance company in bullet two, is recommending a Charter Agreement or nothing else...  interesting.  Does the insurance company feel that a facility usage or affiliate agreement does not protect the Church?   Sounds 100% opposite to the UMC thinking.

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1 hour ago, ScouterSD said:

Does the insurance company feel that a facility usage or affiliate agreement does not protect the Church?   Sounds 100% opposite to the UMC thinking.

If anything happens on church property, then the church will get dragged into the lawsuit.

"Sue everyone, and let the courts sort it out," says the lawyer corps.  (While the church hemorrhages cash in lawyer fees probably seeks a settlement.)

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55 minutes ago, PACAN said:

@Sentinel947 One big difference is that the UMC (who love scouts???) did not offer a status quo option event though some UMC churches want to keep their units.

There are probably a lot of reasons for that including that as one of the largest CO groups, UMC were affected by a significant number of lawsuits and claims. Unlike the Catholic church, though, which has been experiencing this all along outside of BSA, many in the Methodist community were shocked by the reality of their liabilities as the bankruptcy unfolded. I also think you have to look at what's going on with the Methodist Church overall. Like BSA, they have seen significant membership erosion and who's left is aging. Where I am in the northeast, they were mostly rural hamlet churches that are now closed, sold, or about to close. A chartering organization agreement requires active supervision and while many of these older congregations might have sentimental reasons for wanting to continue to charter the units they've hosted for years the reality is that many are not capable of it. To make exceptions for the few exceptions creates a management headache for leadership that is being downsized. 

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1 hour ago, ScouterSD said:

In reading the Catholic recommendation a few items stand out.  

  • USCCB strongly recommends that diocesan counsel consult local BSA councils and insurance carriers before approving the use of any agreements with the BSA.
  • Catholic Mutual is recommending either the Charter Agreement, as risk is mitigated by the by the ability to control leadership, program, and safe environment standards, or dissociate from the hosting of BSA Units in any form, eliminating the risk altogether.

The first bullet point should apply to all chartering organizations. The bankruptcy showed all the chartering organization to get it in writing, not just take the word of the BSA.

However, the largest Catholic insurance company in bullet two, is recommending a Charter Agreement or nothing else...  interesting.  Does the insurance company feel that a facility usage or affiliate agreement does not protect the Church?   Sounds 100% opposite to the UMC thinking.

I think it's based on the realization that you're either all in and very hands on in running the unit or you are not. The FUA and Affiliation agreements just seem like they could be used to continue to "charter" a unit in all but name, leaving the same kinds of in practice oversight issues in place. You probably shouldn't have youth on your property unless you are willing to take responsibility for them. 

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On 11/29/2022 at 2:37 PM, Armymutt said:

One key difference is that there is no national Catholic authority.  Each diocese can determine how they will proceed.  Ours is continuing with business as usual.  

Not true.  The USCCB could decide to vote and adopt a national policy that each bishop would be obliged to implement.  Not sure what it would take for that to happen though.

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