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Jameson76

Interesting observation - rank advancement

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Posted (edited)
On 6/22/2019 at 9:31 AM, RememberSchiff said:

A moderator reminder, lets limit our criticism to culpable adults and there are many in this case. Thanks.

IMHO, remedies for adult misbehavior and mistakes in the Advancement Method are long overdue. There are just too many ways to play the system. 

My $0.02

 

Yet another reminder. Some forum members are negatively criticizing a specific scout  by name, who is also a minor , here in public.   Scouters don't do that.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be first ; there  can be everything wrong  with the means used towards achieving that end. 

Where were the adults? Do we need to formally review and document adult leader actions at BOR's? 

RS

Edited by RememberSchiff

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2 hours ago, qwazse said:

After Feb 1, BSA would also permit a young women from her foreign WOSM organization to start advancement based on the work done in her own country since Feb 1.

I don't think that is valid. Are suggesting that a Canadian female scout from Canada that completed work equivalent to First Class in 2018 would not be eligible to have that work considered if she moved to the US in 2019? If so, is there some verbiage that would support that interpretation? I am open to being incorrect but I've not read anything that would suggest that. Thanks.

2 hours ago, an_old_DC said:

Sydney is trying to make this all about her

Let's please not infer something sinister about her motives, please.

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36 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Let's please not infer something sinister about her motives, please.

Some believe that self-servingness in the desire to be first does not represent the noble image of the Eagle. You may not agree, but is that opinion sinister? 

Is agreeing to disagree agreeably really so hard?  LOL!  Silly me, I already said that. 

Barry

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The temporary transition rules very clearly state that "all requirements must be completed while the individual is a registered member of Scouts BSA, or after achieving the First-Class Rank in Scouts BSA (as specified in the BSA Guide to Advancement, an individual after earning First Class Rank in Scouts BSA may transfer primary membership to Venturing or Sea Scouts and continue to work on Eagle Scout requirements)."  All requirements means all requirements.

The part about "after earning First Class Rank in Scouts BSA" refers to how Scouts can transfer their membership from a troop to a Venturing crew or a Sea Scout ship and continue their Scouts BSA advancement there as a qualified Venturer or Sea Scout as long as they meet the age requirements or get a time extension (GTA sections 4.3.1.4 and 4.4.0.1).

The transition rules also state that work done (including nights of camping) while a registered Venturer, registered Sea Scout, or while participating unofficially prior to joining the Scouts BSA program do not count.  It is clear that national wants all female Scouts to have a level playing field and start at the same place.

The transition rules also state that "Eagle Scout requirements are set by the National Council and cannot be adjusted by a troop, district or council."

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28 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Some believe that self-servingness in the desire

And yet again, you imply less than honorable motivations behind her actions.

This isn't about agreeing to disagree, this about not disparaging a scout and a minor. To quote our Moderator, "we don't do that." We can discuss the proper course of action without dragging in assumptions about her motivations.

 

AND, I am sure I have stated that more than once as well.

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22 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

The temporary transition rules very clearly state that "all requirements must be completed while the individual is a registered member of Scouts BSA, or after achieving the First-Class Rank in Scouts BSA

You are quoting from a section not relevant to the topic. To quote:

Quote

 

Will work completed while girls participated unofficially before the introduction of Scouts BSA count towards Eagle requirements?

... all requirements must be completed while the individual is a registered member of Scouts BSA ...

 

This issue isn't about work she did as a tag-along with her brother's unit. It is about work she did while a scout of a foreign troop (not at all mentioned in the transition document). The Temporary transitions rules don't really address this issue at all (outside of the recognition section - which I fully support).

 

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14 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

And yet again, you imply less than honorable motivations behind her actions.

This isn't about agreeing to disagree, this about not disparaging a scout and a minor. To quote our Moderator, "we don't do that." We can discuss the proper course of action without dragging in assumptions about her motivations.

 

AND, I am sure I have stated that more than once as well.

 

I am dorry, but the scout in question has engaged in a very public media campaign to pursue her agenda, including government involvement.  She had also quite vocally made this about BSA owing _her_ the first Eagle.  Were she campaigning for everyone who had ever completed the requirements for Eagle outside the program, to be awarded Eagle “now”, the discussion would be different.

To ignore the name of the individual who has made this blatantly public and blatantly about HERSELF, and to ignore the plain words that express these actions, is silliness.

 

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8 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

You are quoting from a section not relevant to the topic. To quote:

This issue isn't about work she did as a tag-along with her brother's unit. It is about work she did while a scout of a foreign troop (not at all mentioned in the transition document). The Temporary transitions rules don't really address this issue at all (outside of the recognition section - which I fully support).

 


It is relevant because it was work that she did prior to joining a Scouts BSA troop.  All requirements must be completed after joining a Scouts BSA troop.  You and I disagree, and that is fine.  We will agree to disagree.

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5 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

So to confirm, it is your belief that the authors of the GTA intentionally set out to create a policy of advancement that was only available to non-citizens?

Do you think a US citizen that lived abroad temporarily and joined a foreign scouting association should be allowed to have that work considered when they moved back home?

Actually the G2A covers your question. It states " This procedure also applies to members of the BSA(emphasis added) who, while living abroad, have earned advancement in another Scouting association."

Since she was not a registered member of the BSA while registered with Scouts Canada, it doesn't count.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, willray said:

 

To ignore the name of the individual who has made this blatantly public and blatantly about HERSELF, and to ignore the plain words that express these actions, is silliness.

Still, we as Scouters will follow the rules even if  others have not.  We praise and remember scouts by name in this  public forum but not criticize them and certainly not vilify them. Praise in public, criticize in private where criticism is constructive.  

@John-in-KC   @NJCubScouter  @MattR  @desertrat77

Edited by RememberSchiff
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27 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

And yet again, you imply less than honorable motivations behind her actions.

This isn't about agreeing to disagree, this about not disparaging a scout and a minor. To quote our Moderator, "we don't do that." We can discuss the proper course of action without dragging in assumptions about her motivations.

 

AND, I am sure I have stated that more than once as well.

I didn't imply anything. Your quotes are quite clear.

The moderator said not to disparage the scout, but the the quotes you are taking out of context are opinions of motivations. Motivations that some of the posters here say are NOT wrong. 

All that being said, you're the one using words like sinister, which come under the context of disparaging. The only reason the mods don't call you on your posts is because your disparaging remarks are toward adults. I personally don' t agree there should be line drawn, which was the motivation for my comments.

Barry 

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12 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Actually the G2A covers your question. It states " This procedure also applies to members of the BSA(emphasis added) who, while living abroad, have earned advancement in another Scouting association."

Since she was not a registered member of the BSA while registered with Scouts Canada, it doesn't count.

 

 

I thought she was also a Venturer? 

I would think it would be the "while living abroad" clause that would be the concern here. Was she actually residing in Canada?

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28 minutes ago, Liz said:

I thought she was also a Venturer? 

I would think it would be the "while living abroad" clause that would be the concern here. Was she actually residing in Canada?

 

I do not know if she was a registered Venturer or not, but the temporary transition rules clearly state that any work done (including nights of camping) while a registered Venturer or Sea Scout but prior to becoming a registered member of Scouts BSA do not count.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

She was not a Venturer at the time. That came afterward

 As for residency,  that is open to interpretation. Does a month or 2 and weekends count? I know 2 state will grant citizenship with a 24 hour stay.

Key for me is she is not  Canadian, nor a member of the BSA  when she got Chief Scout Award.

Edited by Eagle94-A1

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Let's look at a couple of things regarding this young lady. If my memory (which can be flaky at times) serves the scout in question completed her Eagle Scout project prior to Feb. 1. If that is the case then she did a service project not an Eagle Project as one must develop, have approved, lead and complete their Eagle Project while a Life Scout. Said scout couldn't be a Scout until Feb. 1, let alone a Life Scout, so if the approval/completion dates on the project are before Feb. 1 it doesn't count. 

No camping nights can be counted from before Feb. 1. Whether she was a Venturer or not no camping nights counted. Therefore, she hasn't completed camping merit badge, unless she has spent 10 weekends camping in a tent since Feb. 1. It was a fairly mild winter in most of the northern climes, but 10 weekends out of the 21 possible weekends since girls were allowed to join Scouts BSA is a stretch. There have been no long term camps that I'm aware of since the first available joining date. Maybe said scout found a spring break week long camp somewhere, but I've never heard of a spring break camp. Summer camp of course, Christmas/winter break camp yes in some places including one here in the Great Lakes State.

Next, one must be a Life Scout for 6 months and serve in a POR for that time period. Said scout, if granted advanced standing by her council, wouldn't be eligible for her Eagle SMC until at the earliest August 1. With her EBOR thereafter. Is she still serving her troop and in what capacity? Or is she trying to get past credit for that too?

Finally, has she met with her 20 MBCs to get the badges signed off since Feb. 1? One can negotiate with each MBC about previous work credits, but one can't earn MBs without being registered as a Scouts BSA member. Therefore, no MBs dated before Feb. 1 can be counted. And since no MBs can be earned before being registered, is she really a Life Scout or just a First Class Scout? If you truly follow the MB earning rules, she came into Scouts BSA as a 1st Class Scout. 4 months of POR service/time in rank and some MB haggling,  then she is Star somewhere around the 1st of June. 6 more months of POR service/time in rank, more MB haggling and Life Scout in December. Eagle shouldn't be possible until June of next year IMHO.

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