Per WSJ -BSA may declare bankruptcy

[Sentinel947]

32 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

This quote just saddens me.  I just wish we could find a way through this without having to carve up BSA assets.  I'm struck by the fact that the people who suffer from a BSA bankruptcy and carving up of 100 years of assets are not investors or hedge funds - it's millions of Scouts today and in the future.

Yet, those who were abused clearly deserve compensation.  What happened to them was reprehensible.

I don't know how to make sense of this.

As a Catholic, I've seen several dioceses declare bankruptcy due to the sex abuse crisis. Victims deserved to be heard and compensated for the failures of leadership to protect them and hold predators accountable for their crimes. For the church, I think of the beautiful old churches closed, sold and demolished. The charities damaged by the declining donations from scandalized Catholics. The elderly Priests and other religious who have spent their lives serving others, and now some diocese struggle to financially care for them. The people who will reject the teachings of Jesus because of the association with child molesters and sex abusers.

You can see a list of Catholic diocese's that have paid out settlements or declared bankruptcy here: https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/catholic-dioceses-and-orders-filed-bankruptcy-and-other-major-settlements. If the scope of abuse and damages are similar for the BSA, I'm not sure how the BSA survives, especially with states retroactively increasing the statute of limitations for these sorts of crimes. 

We'll see where it goes for the BSA, but I've seen this movie before and haven't made it to the ending quite yet, and now I get to watch a parade of damaged victims and another institution I deeply care about be destroyed by the evil deeds of predators, and the weakness of leadership that put reputation over people. 

I'm not sure there is any sense to make out of this. All we can do is be vigilant in our own neck of the woods, hope the victims find peace and receive justice, and that Scouting continues in some form or another.  

[qwazse]

The abused deserve restoration.

Can that be achieved by winning damages?

[ParkMan]

2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

As a Catholic, I've seen several dioceses declare bankruptcy due to the sex abuse crisis. Victims deserved to be heard and compensated for the failures of leadership to protect them and hold predators accountable for their crimes. For the church, I think of the beautiful old churches closed, sold and demolished. The charities damaged by the declining donations from scandalized Catholics. The elderly Priests and other religious who have spent their lives serving others, and now some diocese struggle to financially care for them. The people who will reject the teachings of Jesus because of the association with child molesters and sex abusers.

You can see a list of Catholic diocese's that have paid out settlements or declared bankruptcy here: https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/catholic-dioceses-and-orders-filed-bankruptcy-and-other-major-settlements. If the scope of abuse and damages are similar for the BSA, I'm not sure how the BSA survives, especially with states retroactively increasing the statute of limitations for these sorts of crimes. 

We'll see where it goes for the BSA, but I've seen this movie before and haven't made it to the ending quite yet, and now I get to watch a parade of damaged victims and another institution I deeply care about be destroyed by the evil deeds of predators, and the weakness of leadership that put reputation over people. 

I'm not sure there is any sense to make out of this. All we can do is be vigilant in our own neck of the woods, hope the victims find peace and receive justice, and that Scouting continues in some form or another.  

Most certainly they deserve to be heard and compensated.  It would be wrong to interpret my comments as suggesting otherwise.  I fully, wholeheartedly, and without reservation believe in supporting the victims of child abuse.  I know victims of child abuse and grew up in the era when the scandals in the Catholic Church were happening.  I grew up Catholic and I vividly recall allegations that it happened at my church at the hands of a priest that I knew.  From what little was shared with me as a kid, that priest abused one friend of mine and perhaps more.  I remember my parents having to ask me if I'd been abused.  I absolutely take, and have always taken, child abuse very seriously.  Sorry if that seems strong - but it's something I believe strongly in.

It still saddens me though to think of a day when the lawyers start trying to sell off the properties of our nation's Boy Scout program.

[skeptic]

34 minutes ago, qwazse said:

The abused deserve restoration.

Can that be achieved by winning damages?

From my perspective, the answer to this is no.  The damage is emotional and perhaps unremembered or hidden memory of physical trauma.  I suggest that few if any, good psychologists would state monetary damages really achieve much for the victim, other than perhaps some kind of perceived payback.  But, that monetary loss of the perpetrator cannot be equated to the loss suffered by the victim.  Of course, I have no answer as to what might somehow make things right, as there likely is nothing.  But dredging emotional trauma up after long periods of dormancy that at least tamped down the pain to a bearable level seems to be almost as bad as the original wrong, especially if the victims have learned to live with it and have moved on.  What is not discussed in these cases, from what I have read, is how not only is the actual event reawakened and made raw again, but the victim may now also have to cope with the realization that family and those with power to confront the situation at the time it is still open and most information may be available chose, for whatever reasons, to not pursue it and bring at least some closure while it was fresh and most painful emotionally.

 

 

 

 

[Sentinel947]

The other thing we aren't considering is the boondoggle that is the Summit. This article is a few years old, and predates the loss of the LDS partnership. I can only imagine these numbers are even more grim today. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boyscouts-finances-specialreport/special-report-a-439-million-camp-adds-to-boy-scouts-money-crunch-idUSBRE96E08B20130715

[LVAllen]

9 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

The other thing we aren't considering is the boondoggle that is the Summit. This article is a few years old, and predates the loss of the LDS partnership. I can only imagine these numbers are even more grim today. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boyscouts-finances-specialreport/special-report-a-439-million-camp-adds-to-boy-scouts-money-crunch-idUSBRE96E08B20130715

Don't forget the balloon payment of $136 million due in 2022 from the 2012 10-year bonds.

[Sentinel947]

1 hour ago, LVAllen said:

Don't forget the balloon payment of $136 million due in 2022 from the 2012 10-year bonds.

Yikes

[NJCubScouter]

On 12/22/2018 at 1:45 AM, qwazse said:

The abused deserve restoration.

Can that be achieved by winning damages?

Whether it can or not isn’t really the question, in my opinion.  The question is, even if money is an ineffective remedy, what other remedy is there?  None that I am aware of. (Well, therapy, but that’s far from a complete solution either... and it isn’t free, which brings us back to money.)

[Cambridgeskip]

On 12/22/2018 at 6:45 AM, qwazse said:

The abused deserve restoration.

Can that be achieved by winning damages?

Money can't take back trauma. I don't think anyone would argue that it can.

What it can do is help provide financially where that trauma has resulted in them suffering indirectly. Someone with suffering with long term mental health problems may struggle to hold down a job or start a business or may fail exams etc.

[T2Eagle]

4 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

Money can't take back trauma. I don't think anyone would argue that it can.

What it can do is help provide financially where that trauma has resulted in them suffering indirectly. Someone with suffering with long term mental health problems may struggle to hold down a job or start a business or may fail exams etc.

"Results indicate that adults with documented histories of childhood abuse and/or neglect have lower levels of education, employment, earnings, and fewer assets as adults, compared to matched control children. There is a 14% gap between individuals with histories of abuse/neglect and controls in the probability of employment in middle age, controlling for background characteristics. ... These new findings demonstrate that abused and neglected children experience large and enduring economic consequences."  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3571659/

[skeptic]

http://www.heraldnews.com/opinion/20181219/opinion-what-boy-scouts-get-right?fbclid=IwAR14zAP4i11KTo6L4SQDXRT9h9naou1whg4aOMOT3abE9Zkti_yOKsvCeiM

[T2Eagle]

9 hours ago, skeptic said:

http://www.heraldnews.com/opinion/20181219/opinion-what-boy-scouts-get-right?fbclid=IwAR14zAP4i11KTo6L4SQDXRT9h9naou1whg4aOMOT3abE9Zkti_yOKsvCeiM

I had the pleasure of meeting and dining with the author, Stephen Carter.  He is brilliant and delightful.  I would recommend any of his writings: fiction, nonfiction, and opinion.

[T2Eagle]

Adding to my previous comment.  I took the time to go back one link to a previous column referenced by professor Carter in the piece Skeptic listed.

It is a great short description of the values that can be gained from even a brief stint as a scout and a 1965 handbook.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-12-16/don-t-let-the-boy-scouts-go-bankrupt

[ghjim]

SFE is now weighing in:

 

 

[Eagle1993]

7 hours ago, ghjim said:

SFE is now weighing in:

 

 

The interviewer’s questions were odd.... it seemed like he had a clear opinion of scouting but no real experience in it (or even research of it).  SFE was actually defending BSA for much of the interview.  Are there really no experienced scouters in media that can actually write an in depth article or hold an coherent interview?  I only see poorly researched hatchet jobs or shallow and short quick reads.