Transition from Whittling to Totin (knife use)

[sandlime]

I found a post from 2002, but wanted a more recent conversation. When a Boy bridges from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts...if they have earned their Whittling Chip, can they continue to use their knife until they have an opportunity to earn their Totin' Chip?

[MattR]

Welcome to the forum, @sandlime. Good question. Maybe someone else can help with that.

[Saltface]

My vote is that it's not officially defined. It would be pretty pedantic to force a scout to surrender his knife just because he bridged over.

[sandlime]

I agree...our committee is torn, so I'm hoping to find something a little official...

[shortridge]

The rules for TC do not grandfather in the WC. They’re two different awards in two different programs. The TC covers all woods tools, not just the pocketknife.

But in reality, for a Scout who’s read the Scout Handbook sections and gotten some instruction from an older Scout, it should take maybe an hour to demonstrate all the necessary requirements to earn the TC. They can easily knock it out on their first campout. It’s hardly an inconvenience or an imposition to not be able to whittle for a day.

[Saltface]

Aren’t we talking specifically about knives?

[TMSM]

I allow (as SM) the WC to cover having a knife for a new scout for the first few months. If they refuse to take one of our TC training classes then we have a discussion on why TC is important for a boy scout. That seems to motivate them.

[qwazse]

The general thinking is if a scout has demonstrated skills, he keeps the tool. We don't take away the tool simply because the scout hasn't had an opportunity to demonstrate to us.

TC is a tool for troops with unruly boys. When we've had small numbers of crossovers and they seemed to be behaving, we didn't worry about their knives. We just taught skills. By summer camp, everything they needed to know would have been covered. If they asked for a TC card we would give it.

Make of it what you will, but our behavior disorder kids never abused their knife and ax privileges. Lots of other issues, but we could trust them with sharps!

We did go through knife and ax early this with the half dozen scouts who crossed over. (In the process, second years, were given a refresher via helping to teach and demonstrate.) And we formally gave out totin' chip cards ... mainly because the PLC wasn't sure how disciplined this group would be. Turned out they performed quite well!

[SSScout]

A good question, one I had not heard or considered before.  

When I teach Woodtools in IOLS,  I always talk about how a Boy Scout teaching Whittlin' Chip is an excellent recruiting tool . I then progress thru pocket knives (WC) to hatchets and axes and saws.  

I would think, as has been noted, if the Scout has the WC (not a badge to wear on the Boy Scout uni), I would still expect (That's the word !) the Scout to operate his tool safely.  He/she (!) would not be allowed to operate an axe or saw until he/she had passed the Totin' Chip,  but they could still cut rope to length as needed,  make Fuzz sticks and necker slides.   

Question for the  audience:  What constitutes " demonstrate safe handling" in your Totin' Chip?   Around here , the tradition is the creation of a really good tent peg.  Selection of a appropriate stick/limb,   Sharp four sided point,  nice neat notch with "wings",  pruned off relief over the notch and chamfered head edges, maybe about 2 or 3"  diameter, 12 or 20 inches long.... 

In it's creation, is a knife "allowed" or only hatchet/ax?  Could you saw it?  

I once had a boy make a really nice one with Three Notches !   Two "natural" notches (trimmed branches left in situ) and his created notch. 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

Now that Scout is a rank and they "5. Demonstrate your knowledge of pocketknife safety." I woul dhave them do a quick review. But I know some troops automatically award Scout rank at cross over because all the requirements for Scouting Advenutre coincide with Scout rank.

 

Arrow of Light Adventure: Scouting Adventure

Complete the following Requirements.

1. Prepare yourself to become a Boy Scout by completing at least a-c below:
   1. Repeat from memory the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. In your own words, explain their meanings to your den leader, parent, or guardian.
   2. Explain what Scout spirit is. Describe for your den leader, parent, or guardian some ways you have shown Scout spirit by conducting yourself according to the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan.
   3. Give the Boy Scout sign, salute, and handshake. Explain when to use each.
   4. Describe the First Class Scout badge, and tell what each part stands for. Explain the significance of the First Class Scout badge.
   5. Repeat from memory the Pledge of Allegiance. In your own words, explain its meaning
2. Visit a Boy Scout troop meeting with your parent or guardian and, if possible, with your den members and leaders. After the meeting, do the following:
   1. Describe how the Scouts in the troop provide its leadership.
   2. Describe the four steps of Boy Scout advancement.
   3. Describe ranks in Boy Scouting and how they are earned.
   4. Describe what merit badges are and how they are earned.
3. Practice the patrol method in your den for one month by doing the following:
   1. Explain the patrol method. Describe the types of patrols that might be part of a Boy Scout troop.
   2. Hold an election to choose the patrol leader.
   3. Develop a patrol name and emblem (if your den does not already have one), as well as a patrol flag and yell. Explain how a patrol name, emblem, flag, and yell create patrol spirit.
   4. As a patrol, make plans to participate in a Boy Scout troop’s campout or other outdoor activity.
4. With your Webelos den leader, parent, or guardian, participate in a Boy Scout troop’s campout or other outdoor activity. Use the patrol method while on the outing.
5. Do the following:
   1. Show how to tie a square knot, two half hitches, and a taut-line hitch. Explain how each knot is used.
   2. Show the proper care of a rope by learning how to whip and fuse the ends of different kinds of rope.
6. Demonstrate your knowledge of the pocketknife safety rules and the pocketknife pledge. If you have not already done so, earn your Whittling Chip card.

 

Scout 
Rank Requirements

All requirements for Scout rank must be completed as a member of a troop or as a Lone Scout. If you already completed these requirements as part of the Webelos Scouting Adventure, simply demonstrate your knowledge or skills to your Scoutmaster or other designated leader after joining the troop.

1. 1. Repeat from memory the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. In your own words, explain their meaning.
   2. Explain what Scout spirit is. Describe some ways you have shown Scout spirit by practicing the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan.
   3. Demonstrate the Boy Scout sign, salute, and handshake. Explain when they should be used.
   4. Describe the First Class Scout badge and tell what each part stands for. Explain the significance of the First Class Scout badge.
   5. Repeat from memory the Outdoor Code. In your own words, explain what the Outdoor Code means to you.
   6. Repeat from memory the Pledge of Allegiance. In your own words, explain its meaning.
2. After attending at least one Boy Scout troop meeting, do the following:
   1. Describe how the Scouts in the troop provide its leadership.
   2. Describe the four steps of Boy Scout advancement.
   3. Describe what the Boy Scout ranks are and how they are earned.
   4. Describe what merit badges are and how they are earned.
3. 1. Explain the patrol method. Describe the types of patrols that are used in your troop.
   2. Become familiar with your patrol name, emblem, flag, and yell. Explain how these items create patrol spirit.
4. 1. Show how to tie a square knot, two half-hitches, and a taut-line hitch. Explain how each knot is used.
   2. Show the proper care of a rope by learning how to whip and fuse the ends of different kinds of rope.
5. Demonstrate your knowledge of pocketknife safety.
6. With your parent or guardian, complete the exercises in the pamphlet "How to Protect Your Children from Child Abuse: A Parents Guide" and earn the Cyber Chip Award for your grade. ¹
7. Since joining the troop and while working on the Scout rank, participate in a Scoutmaster conference.

 

[perdidochas]

On 7/6/2018 at 2:49 PM, sandlime said:

I found a post from 2002, but wanted a more recent conversation. When a Boy bridges from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts...if they have earned their Whittling Chip, can they continue to use their knife until they have an opportunity to earn their Totin' Chip?

I don't view it that way.  I also think that Totin' chip should be one of the first things a Boy Scout learns. 

[Thunderbird]

JMO, but troops shouldn't automatically award Scout rank at crossover because:

"All requirements for Scout rank must be completed as a member of a troop or as a Lone Scout. If you already completed these requirements as part of the Webelos Scouting Adventure, simply demonstrate your knowledge or skills to your Scoutmaster or other designated leader after joining the troop."

In addition, the "How to Protect Your Children from Child Abuse: A Parents Guide" pamphlet is different in the Boy Scout Handbook vs. the Webelos Handbook.

If the Scout does the pamphlet exercises with a parent / guardian and if the Scout can demonstrate his knowledge and skills of the  Scout rank requirements, then the Scout should be able to make Scout rank very quickly.

From what I have seen, Boy Scouts who don't make Scout rank within the first couple of weeks typically 1) have some issues with memorization (the standard for Cub Scouts is "Do Your Best", which is different than the standard for Boy Scouts) or 2) they have issues with getting their parent / guardians participation on the pamphlet exercises (usually communication with the parent takes care of the second issue).

 

Going back to the original topic, I am not aware of a BSA policy either way, so your Scoutmaster / troop committee could establish a policy.  Most troops do cover the Totin' Chip pretty early after crossover, so it isn't usually much of an inconvenience.  If nothing else, it's good refresher training for the Scouts, who might have earned the Whittling Chip 2-3 years earlier as Bears.

[Cleveland Rocks]

We do not automatically award Scout at crossover, because the Scouts don't know the material.  I have no idea how they got the stuff signed off as Webelos Scouts, but when they join our Troop, it's amazing how many of them do not know the Scout Oath and Law (despite the fact that it's been part of the Cub Scout program since 2015), and they don't know the knots.  That's just the beginning.  If they simply demonstrated their knowledge after joining as the requirements state, that's one thing.  But these Scouts are joining and we have to spend the first few weeks going over all the stuff they should have known for the Scouting Adventure achievement.  When we cover this material with them, they look at us like we're speaking a foreign language.

Clearly the Webelos Den Leaders are simply pencil whipping these requirements (we know this because when we sign their handbooks as Webelos stating that they have met with us as part of the AoL requirements, their handbooks are as blank as the day they bought them--our signatures are the first ones in their handbooks), and we've had discussions with the Cubmasters about it, but in the end, there's not a whole lot we can do about it until they join our troop and spend time working on things that they should have already done.