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Hawkwin

National, Religion, Membership, Oath and Law

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3 hours ago, LegacyLost said:

No, because I believe I live my belief. It's not merely an empty creed. Faith without works IS DEAD.

You are either disingenuous or insane to think that those of true faith would endure the BSA endorsing and codifying what is considered an abomination before God.

Or you're forgetting the Scout Oath. It's largely the combination of what the Scout's claim to be with what they are that cannot be abided by ANYONE of traditional faith unless they have either abandoned it or they don't truly believe.

My children will NEVER participate in an organization that tells them that sexual perversion and homosexuality is ok and in effect honoring God and morally straight. I will have to face God someday and answer for these things.

This is me communicating what the BSA has foolishly done and why it is a dead organization to its former constituency.

Evangelical leader Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham, called on all of the faith to leave the BSA completely last year. I concur, and so do many others.

Goodbye

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54 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Goodbye

Considering the decision to allow gay scouts was over four years ago, and the poster's professed statement that their children will never be a part of such, then they have likely been gone for over four years, but something compelled them join this forum for the first time yesterday.

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18 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Considering the decision to allow gay scouts was over four years ago, and the poster's professed statement that their children will never be a part of such, then they have likely been gone for over four years, but something compelled them join this forum for the first time yesterday.

Agreed, I don't understand people that think the way he does.  

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4 hours ago, gblotter said:

The church bulk-registers all LDS boys and young men in BSA, but not all LDS love Scouting.

Some LDS avoid Scouting altogether. The LDS exit represents no change to them.

Some LDS participate in Scouting as a duty of church membership. The LDS exit will relieve them of a burden.

Some LDS like Scouting well enough, but considered it the responsibility of the Scoutmaster. The LDS exit will be no big deal to them - meh.

Many LDS are supportive of Scouting but have reservations about recent BSA decisions. They will sprint to Eagle before the LDS exit, and then embrace the new church youth program.

A relatively few LDS (less than 10%) are Scouting enthusiasts with motivations independent of their church membership. They are the most likely candidates for joining a community pack/troop after LDS exit.

 

3 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I guess this is what surprises me, or is at least something I never really understood until now --- because this description is pretty accurate for the 80% of us who are not part of LDS.  We love scouting qua scouting, and I think this why I believe that although the LDS decision will have a negative effect it won't be crushing and will be very uneven across the country.  I'm in Ohio and there aren't more than a handful of LDS units in my council all of them relatively small.

My brothers' experience was pretty good, from what they've expressed.  Given that I'm 15 years older than the first of my brothers and we were in a different ward when I grew up, though, I remember friends of mine strongly disliking scouts and complaining about it.  It was only when I met a boyfriend years later, who'd been involved in a different troop, that I got a good look for myself into what scouting could be when the troop is run well.  I debated posting, because I don't want my comments to be taken as being a negative reflection on the church, but it's hard to ignore the fact that there can be some really major differences in experiences if you were in a small ward where the Scoutmaster didn't really like his calling vs. in a troop where all the volunteers (limited though they may be) are there and committed because they want to be.

I hope whatever the LDS program becomes, that it will inspire those who lead it. 

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11 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

I was raised Southern Baptist in the deep South where I was still paddled in school and wearing shorts was not permitted in school (showed too much skin). I remember being told to break my rock and roll records because when they were played backwards, they told us to do sinful things.

Hating the sinner was a big deal with my church and religion. It wasn't until much later in life that I learned that we should have hated the sin and not the sinner. Even if you believe being gay is a sin, it is no worse a sin than any others - and yet we are still told to love the sinner.

If you are a follower of Jesus, then you should know that Jesus spent his time with sinners. Church was created for the sinners. If you believe in all of that, then BSA is a great place for our fellow sinners regardless of sexual orientation - we are all sinners, right? How many scouts (and scouters) have you kicked out for premarital activities?

We ALL refuse to do what he says. That is the very nature of sin. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Who wants to step forward and be the first to judge? Not I.

For what it's worth God does hate the sinner. It's just that His love is so great that the object of His hate can simultaneously be an object of His love towards redemption for those who come to Him and repent and believe the gospel. Want proof?

"The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers." Psalm 5:5

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." John 3:36

Yes, John 3:16 is indeed also true, but if God didn't even spare his only son to pay for sin fo those who would believe how would you possibly fare?

Also note the "obey" portion of the last verse. That's not teaching that salvation is by works. It's teaching that those with true saving faith actually end up with works.

The words of Christ:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

And that's talking about people who PROFESSED faith in Christ. We're not even talking about those who publicly reject Him. That verse is about supposed BELIEVERS. 

And the verse about "Judge not lest you be judged".  That's talking about hypocritical judging. The same chapter that contains that also contains this: 

"“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits."

That is judging by results the veracity of one's faith. Take heed!

And again we come back to the folly of the 2015 BSA decision, much less the other ones.

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9 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

I would never assume to tell another person that they are not following the Bible. Again, not my place to judge them and it would leave me feeling like I was a modern day Pharasee.

It's not my place to judge either, but the word of God shall judge us all. Christ himself told us to judge a false prophet by fruit and that only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven. (See prior post.)

Furthermore:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:9-10) 

Do not be deceived!

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6 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Considering the decision to allow gay scouts was over four years ago, and the poster's professed statement that their children will never be a part of such, then they have likely been gone for over four years, but something compelled them join this forum for the first time yesterday.

And berate the leaders of an organisation they want nothing to do with. Strange way of showing it.

Gods Gays and Girls. A heady combination.

 

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2 hours ago, ianwilkins said:

And berate the leaders of an organisation they want nothing to do with. Strange way of showing it.

Gods Gays and Girls. A heady combination.

 

I thought Mike Pence would be too busy to join our forum.... I kid ... I kid... 😀

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15 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Franklin Graham also said:

We are under attack by Muslims at home and abroad. We should stop all immigration of Muslims to the U.S. until this threat with Islam has been settled. Every Muslim that comes into this country has the potential to be radicalized—and they do their killing to honor their religion and Muhammad. During World War 2, we didn’t allow Japanese to immigrate to America, nor did we allow Germans. Why are we allowing Muslims now?

 

Not really a voice that would in any way represent BSA's openness to people of all faiths and races.

He is not his father. One of his father's favorite verses: He must become greater; I must become less” (John 3:30). And he was very humble and accepting of all people while standing his ground. 

@LegacyLost it is still a free country. You are allowed to take your marbles, and children, elsewhere--good luck and good bless. Some of us will continue the good fight from where we stand. I do not understand why you even came on this forum? Join Trail Life or come up with something better.

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11 hours ago, mashmaster said:

Agreed, I don't understand people that think the way he does.  

I do.

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54 minutes ago, David CO said:

I do.

I do as well.  I know a number of people with strong, deeply held beliefs like this.  I appreciate for some people their beliefs are so strong, that they feel it's morally wrong to compromise their beliefs.  I'll admit the strength of his convictions drew me into the debate.

While I appreciate that people feel this strongly, I do think that in the interest of the youth and the movement, you have to temper your beliefs in a Scouting context.

 

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4 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I do as well.  I know a number of people with strong, deeply held beliefs like this.  I appreciate for some people their beliefs are so strong, that they feel it's morally wrong to compromise their beliefs.  I'll admit the strength of his convictions drew me into the debate.

While I appreciate that people feel this strongly, I do think that in the interest of the youth and the movement, you have to temper your beliefs in a Scouting context.

 

Yes you have to accept the limitations of the youth movement and your Troop or leave if your conscience dictates you to do so. I have members of my immediate family that feel the same way. We have an ecumenical Troop and it is a fine line to walk. When we do it right our members feel comfortable expressing their religious beliefs respectfully. 

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4 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I do as well.  I know a number of people with strong, deeply held beliefs like this.  I appreciate for some people their beliefs are so strong, that they feel it's morally wrong to compromise their beliefs.  I'll admit the strength of his convictions drew me into the debate.

While I appreciate that people feel this strongly, I do think that in the interest of the youth and the movement, you have to temper your beliefs in a Scouting context.

 

This discussion is taking place in the context of the LDS pulling out of scouting. LegacyLost just told us that a major Evangelical minister has advised that others pull out as well. I didn't know that. I think this information is relevant to our discussion.

 

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4 minutes ago, David CO said:

This discussion is taking place in the context of the LDS pulling out of scouting. LegacyLost just told us that a major Evangelical minister has advised that others pull out as well. I didn't know that. I think this information is relevant to our discussion.

 

To walk back the discussion...while I doubt BSA is going to un-ring the bell Mr Graham's comments may apply enough pressure on National to resist dropping the final 'G' for a while. I think it is pretty important (I have organized and led a few Scout's own at camp and events) but does not seemed to be shared by many in the membership. I do know a local very large Catholic church strongly considered dropping their GSUSA and BSa charters in lieu of a new creation but backed off when they discovered it was too hard to recruit enough parent leaders. So they will keep the status quo for now.

I over heard a few parents mumble about the Mormon's pulling out at a meeting last night. No way to spin 400k leaving as a positive.

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23 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I do as well.  I know a number of people with strong, deeply held beliefs like this.  I appreciate for some people their beliefs are so strong, that they feel it's morally wrong to compromise their beliefs.  I'll admit the strength of his convictions drew me into the debate.

While I appreciate that people feel this strongly, I do think that in the interest of the youth and the movement, you have to temper your beliefs in a Scouting context.

 

I do appreciate peoples beliefs, but I don't appreciate people telling everyone that we all should follow his beliefs.  Scouting is interfaith always has been.  I accept people having different beliefs than mine and am doing this for the youth.  I do not see the value in chastising people for sticking with the program for the youth.  If you can't follow it, then find an organization that you can follow without throwing stones.

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