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fred johnson

Fear that expanded Duty To God requirement drives us out of schools ... AGAIN ...

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DeVinci had to hide his work for being against the Church' date=' as did Galileo both labeled as hereticsI assume that since where heretics they had faulty character. Another question how does this make the program better? [/quote'] What works did Da Vinci hide from the Church?

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This is an interesting discussion' date=' but I would suggest there are a few folks who need to do some soul searching regarding their abject terror about religion.[/quote']

 

The discussion is not driven by a fear of religion (abject terror? Really???), but by the fear that this new requirement is going to disadvantage or drive out scouts who come from a faith tradition that the SM giving the conference doesn't understand (or like).

 

There are faith traditions that that do not pray, some that have no concept of a god, some that have no concept of a priest, some that have no concept of an organized church. There are faith traditions where discussing the faith with "outsiders" is discouraged or forbidden. There are a lot of faith traditions that don't really look like a "religion" to most Americans. But they are faith traditions that a supposed to be welcome in the BSA ("completely non-sectarian).

 

The BSA requires a "Belief in God" but leaves the definition of what that is entirely up to the individual scout and their family.

 

There have always been, and probably always will be, scout leaders that are unwelcoming or outright hostile to faith traditions unlike their own. The fear is that this new rule will encourage them. What we need instead are rules that will encourage people to be welcoming, not judgmental.

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Why is it necessary to combine Duty to God and Reverent? They are two different things. It's your definition that seems to allow for combining them, but not all people think it's even possible.

 

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Maybe so, but reverent in a BSA setting means a lot of different things than just one's belief system.

 

Stosh

 

Your being argumentative or just wrong.

 

In BSA as also in my personal life, "reverent" starts with doing my Duty To God. Every time BSA explains the Scout Law "reverent", it starts with Duty To God. We've all heard it at virtually every Eagle Court Of Honor too.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/relig.aspx

 

 

In a scouting setting, we can discuss one without the other. And, asking a scout to sit through a religious service of another person's faith is more politeness than reverent or Duty To God. I've sat through Lutheran services which are very very close to my Catholic faith. I've also sat through evangelical services that it was polite of me to not walk out of or just laugh at.

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He was brought to trial for homosexuality. Aslo how he obtained the material for the anatomical drawings had to be hidden from the Church http://www.deism.com/davinci.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci
Neither point supports your initial point that I'm disputing "Da Vinci had to hide his works from the Church" he was charged with sodomy but the Wikipedia article makes no reference to who brought the charges. Deists.com claims Da Vinci was not a Catholic, while the Wikipedia article claims he was given the Catholic sacraments of confession and Last Rites before he died. I'm not looking to start any arguments over the subject, I'd never heard that Da Vinci hid things from the church outside of a Dan Brown novel.
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Sitting through a worship observance of others and being "polite" so as to not walk out or laugh, isn't an issue of A Scout is Reverent, it's an issue of A Scout is Courteous. But then doing one's duty to God sometimes might be being polite. I'm not being argumentative, it's just that maybe we aren't even talking reverent here. Because doing one's duty to God encompasses all 12 Scout Laws, to pick one out as being particularly relevant and the others not is very strange way of looking at them. It might be interesting for someone to point out where one of the 12 Scout Laws does NOT apply to doing one's duty to God.

 

The only real problem I have with the subject of this discussion is when people get wrapped up in the minutia and can't see the forest from the trees.

 

Arguing that A Scout is Reverent refers only to one's religious faith is like saying A Scout is Courteous refers only to certain kinds of people, like maybe your younger sister doesn't count.

 

Breaking it down to that level of granularity only opens the door to judgmentalism and abuse. I guess I'm not willing to go down that path.

 

Stosh

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"[R]everent" starts with doing my Duty To God. Every time BSA explains the Scout Law "reverent"' date=' it starts with Duty To God. We've all heard it at virtually every Eagle Court Of Honor too.[/quote']

 

But BSA recognizes atheists as meeting "Reverent" by chartering their troops (Buddhists longer than you or I have been alive), awards them ranks, and and offifically cooperates in the use of their religious awards. So the practical meaning of your statement remains soemwhat unclear - at best. I do not see all the "viewing with alarm" given those facts.

 

If the question is,"Will someone ignore the rules and discriminate on the basis of religion?" the answer is "probably." Many rules get violated. Most religions teach about the imperfections of man. You want a promise of perfect mankind? You'll have to find a new religion.

 

B.S.A. does not make it clearer with contraditions and just poor prose.

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Neither point supports your initial point that I'm disputing "Da Vinci had to hide his works from the Church" he was charged with sodomy but the Wikipedia article makes no reference to who brought the charges. Deists.com claims Da Vinci was not a Catholic' date=' while the Wikipedia article claims he was given the Catholic sacraments of confession and Last Rites before he died. I'm not looking to start any arguments over the subject, I'd never heard that Da Vinci hid things from the church outside of a Dan Brown novel.[/quote']

So what is your point? that my facts about Da Vinci may be inaccurate. if so i can retract. but other than that galieoo was a heretic according to the church as was Capernicus.

maybe we should stop paying attention to churches and those that follow them.

 

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maybe we should stop paying attention to churches and those that follow them.

 

You can ignore churches if you'd like, just as people are free to go to Church if they please. It's a wonderful thing about America.

My point was simply to investigate your claims. That's all.

 

As for the actual topic, I don't think this is solving any issues with the program, and I'm not sure what issues national expects it to solve. I'm an ASM in a very religiously diverse Troop, and as a pretty solid minority in the Troop (Maybe 8 Catholics in the troop of 90 Scouts and Adults.) I don't expect how we deal with duty to God to change.

 

"How have you been living duty to God?"

"yes ........"

"Good Stuff next question."

 

Yours,

Sentinel947

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As one of only two religions with worldwide adherents founded by an Eagle Scout, I would certainly hope that Pastafarianism is accepted by the Boy Scouts as doing one's Duty to God - who in this case is depicted as a giant flying spaghetti blob with noodly appendages and googly eyes. After all, the BSA doesn't define what God is.

 

(The other religion founded by an Eagle Scout is Scientology)

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CalicoPenn - two internet points (and an extra share of pie) for the reference. OK - so now I am truly interested.

 

L Ron Hubbard was an Eagle - copies of his certificate can be found online.

 

Bobby Henderson was as well?

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Judge not, lest ye be judged. - It would seem I must set aside my duty to God to do my duty to BSA?????

 

Stosh

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Perdidochas has it right. This really isn't all that complicated:

 

1. If you're not comfortable talking about duty to God with your scouts, don't talk about it. Mention the requirement in passing and tell the scout I'm leaving this one to you and your parents. Enjoy the rest of the conversation with the scout.

2. If you're part of a single-faith troop, have deep and long and detailed conversations about faith and theology all you want. Enjoy the conversation with the scout.

3. If you're part of a unit with multiple faiths and you're comfortable, ask the scout how he does his duty to God or how he feels about the word or how he practices spirituality. Adjust your SMC to meet the needs of the scout. Feel lucky and blessed if he's willing to share with you. Feel doubly lucky and blessed if he asks you about yours. Enjoy the conversation with the scout.

4. If you're not comfortable with any discussion of God, assign somebody else to handle that part of the SMC.

 

Sheesh, it's really, really, not hard. Extremeist on both ends of the political spectrum really need to unwad their panties, stop looking for a fight and relax a bit.

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