desertrat77

Many folks have a uniform "itch" Some folks satisfy theirs with the minimalist approach. Others like to wear every authorized accouterment. The main question was already posted by others: regardless of their uniform, what are they doing for the scouts? For me, the fewer doodads the better. But I know wonderful scouters who feel just the opposite. And I think it's okay to wear the uniform as often as wearer wishes, as long as he/she is registered and is not a situation that would bring discredit upon scouting.

So we are making leadership decisions based on gender? Interesting. I just checked the calendar, to see what year this is...yep, it's 2009. For a minute, I thought it was 1909. The decision to hire a woman as ASM should be made on her maturity, intelligence and other such qualities. There are 18 yr old men and women that aren't ready for ASM duties. Other men and women are. Making assessments on what we perceive the scouts might perceive is rarely accurate. Making blanket assessments based on age and gender plays into stereotypes. This is another example of we potentially turn away new volunteers.

Best wishes Kudu, you have certainly given me food for thought, and provided a much needed chuckle now and again.

I had the patch trading bug for a spell when I was a teenage scout...when I went to the 1979 NOAC, that broke the spell. I realized that my efforts were paltry compared to the patch trading titans that I witnessed there. Several years ago, I focused on collecting 1 of each of the old black and red patrol medallions. Last count I have approx 55 different medallions. Missing 6 or so to complete the collection...the odd ball ones that might cost a fortune. I'm not too worried about it these days. I've been in four different lodges. I watch the efforts of the obsessive compulsive lodge historians with interest as they assemble a collection of every flap, neckerchief, conclave patch, and variation thereof. Seriously, I value their efforts and like to look at the old historic stuff. But I'm satisfied with the basic lodge flap, and whatever patch comes with events that I actually participate in.

BDPT00, as an Eagle scout, I would be okay with the ladies who earned the Gold Award to wear a knot, whether it be the Eagle Knot, or a special BSA knot that acknowledges the Gold Award. For that matter, I would be fine with girls earning Eagle. And letting them join the BSA at age 11! No, I'm not some crazy who wants to destroy heritage. I love our scouting history...heck, I'm the guy who still uses a Yucca pack on campouts, and a canvas BSA Miners tent. Here's my frame of reference. As a 25-year vet of the USAF, I have seen the progress women have made in the armed services. Old timers said alot of bad things about women back in the day, and predicted the downfall of our national readiness, etc. None of it came true. Quite the opposite. In fact, we are a far better USAF because the combined contributions of men and women, of all races, creed, etc. But the old timers were against it...because of tradition, mostly. And what tradition did we lose? No much. I'm not saying the BSA = military, just so you know. The connection I'm trying to make is if women can serve in armed forces, or on a college faculty, or in industry, why can't boys and girls learn to serve together when they are young? Granted, this is campfire talk. I don't expect the BSA and GSA to do anything different than what they are presently doing. But we, the BSA, could start our next 100 years with a real spark if girls were allowed into scouting, with rights for advancement. Are the girls up for the challenge? Yes. Do they want it? I respectfully recommend that we be extra careful before we answer that question...we old timers tend to view "what the scouts want" through the lens of our own experience. We really don't know, do we? Again, I'm just offering an opinion. BDPT00, sorry for the longwinded response, but to finish with the Woodbadge beads. As I recall, BP gave the original Woodbadgers 1 bead. At some point, those who earned the honors got two. Did this go over well with the Old School 1 Beaders? I don't know, but if I know anything about humans, I'm sure there was some hard feelings. RememberSchiff pointed out that adults could earn Eagle once upon a time, but no longer. Organizations should change for valid reasons, not fads. I don't think males and females working together is a fad. The female presence is not going to detract from the scouting experience. For those that doubt me, taking a look around...professionals, council and district vols, SMs, MB counselors, Order of the Arrow...the ladies are here and has the BSA imploded? No, we are doing fine, and we could do even better.

Lots of knowledgeable folks here, I learn something new every day. Welcome and best wishes.

Sctdad, I'm glad to hear your daughter is in an outdoor-focused GSA unit...it is a very rare thing indeed. Best wishes, DR77(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Nick, good questions. It would be very challenging, in my opinion, to stay involved in your old troop while in college...1.5 hr drive is quite a commitment for anyone. It would broaden your scouting experience to join a local unit when you start college. Granted, it's tough to say good bye to the old crew, but you'll learn alot from the new crew and they from you. Plus, you'll have the benefit of meeting people who share your values in your new town...invaluable fellowship that will help you through the ups and downs living in a new place. As for rejoining your old troop after college...I experienced something like this. As a military brat, we moved alot. Then I joined the military myself and my first permanent station was the base where I had earned Eagle several years previous. And timing being everything, the adult leaders were also former scouts from that same troop, same era. So it wasn't awkward at all. In troops at most military bases, you'll find ASMs who are brand new Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, or Airmen who are former scouts and still want to participate. These scouters are always welcome and they do a great job, in part because they are closer in age to the scouts and the scouts can more readily identify with them. Good role models.

Vigil, greetings and the advice above is spot on. Once you head to college, your education is duty number 1. The desire to stay involved is great, but your education, and the degree, will benefit every aspect of your life, and the lives of others. You may also face this challenge as your career progresses. As a career military guy, there was a stretch of approx. 15 years where I could not be involved in scouting due to military duties. The key is to know how much you can handle personally as a volunteer. I'm in awe of the folks that can juggle a career, family, and a dozen challenging projects in scouting. Sorry to say, I'm not one of those folks. I can handle career, family, and 1 or 2 projects, then I'm in over my head. That said, there is a role in scouting that is just right for each person. Best wishes for all your future endeavors.

The rules are clear but I'm not sure of the reason for the distinction between earned and unearned...after all, aren't merit badges earned?

Wahooker, I think I typed National to district level...I meant to suggest that I would leave the troops/packs/crews/ships alone. Sorry for my lack of clarity, should have added the latter in my original post. If hiking and camping are going to run off folks, let it be at the district level and above, as this will make room for men and women who like the outdoors and will focus their energies on the best aspects of our scouting movement.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Mike Rowe is an excellent choice. Articulate spokesman and he's clearly not afraid of anything outdoors. How cool would it be to see a CSE, or DE, or the upper echelons of the commissioner staff, in the outdoors hiking in the rain, building conservation projects, etc.? This happens I'm sure, but it's not the norm. Too many indoor/cubicle people, paid and volunteer, occupy our highest positions in scouting. Not inspiring.

Speaking of neckerchiefs, I'd make them all full size square ones again, so you can actually use them for something. Require all registered scouters, from National to district level, to have a camping and hiking log, with minimum annual requirements. I'll stop now as I'm one over.

Too bad it's not true (at this point). There would be quite a rush of girls wanting to join Venturing. GSA can't compete with the BSA on many levels, and girls know it. My daughter refuses to go back to Girl Scouts ("all we do is glue popsicle sticks") and is counting the days till she's old enough to join Venturing. I've been a volunteer leader in both organizations. The girls want to experience the same things the Boy Scouts do. And they are up to the challenge. Unfortunately, they have to wait till they are 14 to participate. dg98adams mentioned changing the name to "Scouts" should this happen...got me thinking of the green 1970s uniform I wore as a scout, where the patch above the right pocket (my right your left) indeed said "Scouts." An adult told me when I was a scout this was done in anticipation of BSA going coed (those from early/mid 1970s may recall that debate). I'm not sure why the BSA has taken this long to be more coed. Yes, I'm well aware of all the traditional reasons put forth against going coed, but I respectfully disagree with them. The sooner young men and women learn to serve together, the better off they will all be in the long run.

ASM59, sorry to hear they didn't call. I've been a UC in three councils...one, was treated with extreme indifference (big commissioner staff festooned with uniform doo dads but little interest in helping the troops); second, was brought into the fold quickly ; third, and present, good rapport overall. I like being a UC but frankly, once I retire from the military and hopefully gain some stability in life (own a home, establish a hometown, put down roots), I'll look to serve at troop level as an ASM or committee member. For the present, being a UC has more flexibility and I can still fulfill my commitments when I'm not out of town.

wchormicle, welcome and thanks for the wonderful post.

Our very best selling points are downplayed every day by red tape and the worship of dull management theory. Adventure in the outdoors, our rich scouting heritage, leadership, service to others--these things draw people. The man or woman that can capture that will succeed. At some point, indoor people took charge of scouting. The outdoor people must regain and refocus scouting. Our new scout handbook is a step in the right direction.

Eagle92, that's a great example of servant leadership...the willingness to work hard and share experiences really opens doors. As a UC, I'll go on camp outs with the troops I work for...spend at least one night (in my old canvas BSA tent, great conversation starter), chop wood, wash dishes, etc. It's not much but it builds closer bonds that just visiting the troop meeting once a month. Standing around the campfire with a cup of coffee is where great conversations begin. Narraticong, you are spot on. The folks that welcome newcomers with open arms are ones that get things done. The grumpy old guys tend to stick to themselves and perfect their grumpiness.

There is a difference between hazing and poor manners....

Is the salary too high or too low? Either way, you need a qualified person for a job that complex, and they generally don't work for peanuts.

Just picked up my copy today from the council store.... Sat in the truck for awhile, leafing through the pages.... I'm impressed. National really made an effort to showcase scouting through the decades, and it's darn good. Got a chuckle seeing some of the art work from "my" scout handbook, Eighth Edition, circa 1974, "New Scouting/let's throw out the baby, as well as the bathwater and tub." Can't recall anyone liking anything about that edition, aside from the complete requirements for all MBs. But it was a good chuckle, brought back memories. PS Tie a tie? I was one of two guys in basic training that knew how to tie a tie. So every time the uniform of the day was a combo that required a tie, my buddy and I would face a line of 50 other Airmen, and the two of us would tie them all, each around the owner's neck (couldn't do the old tie-once-and-slip-off method in basic). It's a good skill, eh what?!(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Nlorey, I'm not suggesting that you pretend like you didn't earn it. Be proud of it. But there is a balance. Your service to others as an Eagle, over time, transcends the award itself. If you've got strong opinions, that's good. You've come to the right place. Just be willing to accept the fact that others have strong thoughts too, and honing your communication skills (and humility) is a good thing. Pencil whip is a phrase we are all familiar with...in scouting and on the job. Are there Eagles out there in the world that didn't earn it correctly? Yep. And there will be more. Some of these Eagles will show their true colors in due course. Most "grow into" the rank as they mature and gain a better appreciation of what scouting was trying to teach them. The only thing you can do is square away your part of the Earth. If you are the leader, ensure the program is run the right way. The problem might be world-wide, but it can only be solved locally.

I think it's a sign of the times. I'm in the military, and sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get folks to keep commitments. Sure we can get almost everyone to fulfill their official duties (as you know, there are always a few that don't get it). But when it comes to professional organizations and volunteering for fundraisers and the like, people sign up with great enthusiasm and then no-show in droves. Same with parents and rsvp'ing for birthday parties...if they bother to rsvp at all, it's still a gamble if they will show up. Scouting is a reflection of society. And we have so many competing priorities, I think none of them get due attention. I think folks are involved in so much, they don't focus on anything long enough to gain any depth.

Eagle1977, got a chuckle from Jimmy Carter memory...my card also bears his signature. Twocubdad got me thinking...I don't think I showed my card to anyone...it stayed in my wallet for years. Got it tucked away in a footlocker now. PS Got a certificate and a card(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

I appreciate everything the long-term, dedicated scouter brings. I wonder how many people off the street can arrive with that depth of scouting spirit right away? They have to start somewhere, right? As a guy who moves every couple years in the military, I gotta admit, it's not easy to join a new council. For every scouter that welcomes you, there are several more who let it be known you are An Outsider, A Wearer of the Silly New Council Patch That Only New Guys Wear, etc. This is a tough bunch to get to know. They aren't bad people...they are the old scouters and like any club, you have to jump thru the right hoops over the years to be let into the circle. Outsiders can smell clubiness a mile away. Doesn't matter whether it's a bowling team, church, or scouting. Do I want to go thru the tribe's ritual of What It Takes to Be Included? Yes or no? People vote with their feet. So I'm not putting the old timers down. I think if someone is a good in their other walks of life--parent, employer/employee, citizen--they have the right stuff to grow into a seasoned scouter. We just have to be willing to invite the new folks around the campfire, and not make them wait outside it until we have deemed them worthy enough.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)