desertrat77

GernB, sounds good, where do I sign up?

Nlorey, Welcome to the forum! I'd like to pass along a couple observations from an 1977 Eagle.... First, I understand the heartburn when some is redesigned and the new one stinks. Many of the Eagles in the early '70s didn't like the "chicken in the mess kit" Eagle patch...lots of discontent. But these things pass. The patch was redesigned a few years later. Second, a fancy card will not gain respect outside a small circle of folks who understand such things. Respect as an Eagle comes from exemplifying the principles of scouting in your every day life. It's not ab

SR540Beaver, we can indeed start another WB debate here, but I like the strategy of including new volunteers early. Despite my personal reservations about the WB program, the one benefit it does have is it really makes most participants feel like they are joining something bigger than themselves. I've mentioned this before, and believe it's true: we can encourage that same camaraderie and depth of scouting spirit in our basic adult leader training...but we don't. It's either the whole WB experience or a square-filling, assembly line process to get basic training. If we put some of

Looking back, learning to overcome extreme fear of water has been one of my proudest accomplishments. As a cub, I failed the Red Cross beginners course and had to repeat. Yes it was that bad. Then one day it just clicked and I loved the water. As a boy scout, I went on to earn Lifeguard BSA and served on the waterfront staff at scout camp, teaching lifesaving and swimming MBs. Was it easy? Heck no. Was it worth the trouble? Yes indeed! Seems these days, parents buy into their kids' fears and shortcomings...and unwittingly help solidify them. We've got to provide the e

Wrongnumber, thanks for sharing that recollection with us...I hope you post more. As beneficial as this forum is, we need more stories from scouts and scouters, about anything...summer camp, first camporee, you name it. The debates are fun, but scouting stories strike a cord in all of us, regardless of where we might stand on a particular issue. Eagle732, you are right, there are a hundred things these days that compete for a scout's interest. I was a scout in the '70s, and even participating in school sports and at church, I don't recall times being as demanding as they are now.

Eamonn, I may have indeed missed the point...but I respectfully submit those adults attending camp, whatever their intention, deserve more consideration. They took a week off from work, family and whatever other commitments they have in life to attend camp. Having attending several camps where there were as many adults as kids, it worked fine because the adults knew going in what their role was--and it wasn't to babysit their own kid. They knew they were going to have some responsibility to the troop and camp as a whole. True, if there is a herd of untrained, overbearing parent

All the adults going to camp: I'll bet some went to keep watch over their kids. But most went for the simple fact that it was scout camp and they wanted to sleep in a tent, hike, row a boat, go for a swim, make a dutch oven cobbler, shoot a couple targets at the range, and the like. They probably went for the same reasons their scouts wanted to go to camp: to get outdoors and enjoy the company of people who share their same values! So let's transfer this thought to adult leader training. How best are you going to get folks to training? If it's uniquely scouting--outdoors, patr

I agree that backpacking should be a required MB--in addition to camping. For those with physical limitations, they should be excused upon a doctor's order and allowed to persue some other MB. Expense isn't really a limiting factor. Plenty of cheap options out there, especially for the new scouts who are just learning the ropes. Most of what you buy them will be outgrown, lost or broke anyway. You can pick up an external frame pack pretty cheap on ebay or a yard sale. Do you need a titanium back packing cup or will a plastic one from the thrift store suffice? Purchase a state

Skeptic, Great list, one small recommended addition: EAGLE WITH APRON STRING DEVICE IN LIEU OF TRADITIONAL WIRE KNOT: Same requirements as basic Eagle, but recipient's Dearly Beloved Mother must have completed at least 51% of the requirements herself. This includes orchestrating entire Eagle project; contacting MB counselors everyday to set up appointments for her scout, as well as secretly preparing all written projects and doing all other work excluding that which must be performed by the scout himself as witnessed by the counselor; buying all the food for campouts when her son w

The citizenship series, comm, safety, etc., are best earned during those dreary winter days when even the most dedicated scout would rather be indoors. Frankly, "indoor" MBs entail alot of activity that resembles homework...summer camp should be outdoor focused. Contrary to popular opinion, scouts don't need to be constantly running to and fro earning MBs to have a good summer camp experience. There should be free time to row a boat, throw the frisbee around the parade field, or go on a hike, even if--heresy--it doesn't lead to a MB or patch!

Interesting initiative. Must regretfully, and respectfully, suggest that I do not understand the need for the knot. I salute the guys who earned them all...I earned Eagle plus bronze and gold palms. That just about taxed all my capabilities! So my hat's off to those who powered past me. Two issues: First, it will be tough to prove who actually earned them all. Not that you need to...you can take their word of honor as a scout. Second, I classify earning all the MBs in the same category as the guy who sold the most candy bars in his council for Scout-o-rama. Great accomplishme

OldGreyEagle, Thanks for the perspective, I respect your view points. I can understand the need for a common language. I just wonder why it has to be so heavy on the managerial theory. There are plenty of leadership principles from scouting history that could be taught as our common scouting language. And although WB is often taught at the local scout camp, it seems the course is conducted more indoors than out. For me, it would be torture to sit thru Management 101 while the great outdoors beckons, just beyond the threshold of the camp mess hall, away from the tedium o

Welcome! Your perspective will come in handy!

Eagle92, that's good stuff. The neckerchiefs, and variety of staves, these things spark a scout's interest in the true roots of scouting. Sometimes I look at all the BSA equipment these days and get a little overwhelmed at the sheer quantity and how high-tech it is (I'm an old fogey too). For example, I still have and use a Yucca pack at times. It has its limitations, but what a functional, inexpensive, durable item to just throw in a canteen, poncho and a lunch, and hit the trail.

Without our lady scouters, the BSA would be in deep trouble. I second CA Scouter. I'm leary of any effort to overtly or covertly tilt a decision like this towards a particular gender. True, the scouts need positive male role models. But with the turmoil that many of these young men face at home (divorce, ugly custody arrangments, deadbeat moms and dads), I think any motivated scouter--man or woman--is welcome.

Cclman, it's good to know a variety...as the old saying goes, the lively songs are for when the campfire is burning bright, and the somber songs are appropriate as the campfire is fading.

Eagle92, I too had a stave from scout leader training, circa 1976...had it for years. The syllabus included a reprint of old scout handbook drawings of those many uses for staves that you mentioned. Still have it somewhere. That old stuff is very cool. The stave and the neckerchief used to be important parts of scouting. The stave is largely forgotten, unless it is carried by an adult scouter as a mobile advertisement for their accomplishments. Fashionable but not functional. If hikers use anything these days, it's high tech ski poles and the like. The neckerchief went from som

GernB, I'm the rodent that lives under the pile of jumping cholla cactus chunks! But that's too clunky to put on a patrol flag. Or in a call. Let me mull that over!(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Nachamawat, I've wondered the same thing about WB accouterments. I think we have to borrow something from Mr. Maslow, namely, the need to belong.

Eagle92, your comments are very well taken. But my experience with WB clubiness goes beyond the confines of this forum. It harkens back as far as the late 1970s, when as an SPL and JASM I attended adult leader training and other adult scouter meetings. And continued into my adult years as an ASM and UC. There are many great WBers out there, no doubt about it. But each council I've been in, and I've been in a few due to many moves as a military guy, there is a cadre of WBers (mostly at district and council level) that make no bones about their self-perceived status as The Official Keepers

OGE, your point is well taken. There are good WBers out there. Their actions show it. Unfortunately, I think the WB program is tarnished by two things: 1. The program is largely sedentary/indoors, and the topics taught are a rehash of what any employee in any company will get if they are middle management or aspiring to middle management. So why the claims of "This is the Apex of Scout Leader Training?" 2. The incredible hubris of some WBers. Desertrat77

As a non-WBer, I realize how utterly unworthy I am to comment on anything related to the WB program. And I'm doubly unqualified to comment on WB beads. But what the heck, I'll give it a go. According to many WBers, they alone possess Superior Dedication to the Scouting Movement. Bead wearers gained their status at great cost, so it just follows that the rest of us mortals are half steppers and not fully on board with being Good Scouters. So how dare NYLT adult staffers--clearly their accomplishments are but filthy rags compared to WB staffers--don a third or fourth bead?

Nick, yester-year wasn't too much different. Believe me, we spent plenty of time hashing and rehashing patches and such. My first lodge (ordeal in 1976) had a one-per-life patch, but also had a trading flap that they sold in any quantity you wished. It just depended on your particular lodge. Some had a ton of merchandise, others had a simple flap and that was it.

Eagle92, thank you for your post, particularly the E. Urner Goodman quote. All too often, flaps, sashes, daggles, patches and honors crowd out the true meaning of the Order of the Arrow. Then it's a fraternity that's focused inward, rather than on cheerful service. As Mr. Goodman said, "The things of the spirit count." A good test of OA commitment would be to strive for the plainest OA flaps possible. Kind of like those old time patches, back in the day. Then who would still be interested? There's your true Arrowmen/women.

Nick, that's a good question. The problem isn't only with scouts; you'll see adults with the same problem in the work place and in scouting. After 25 years in the military, here's the best advice I can give: it's not solely up to you to solve a person's morale problem. Each scout has a responsibility too, namely, to get with the program and not just mope through life. As long as you are being the best leader you can, and promoting the best scout program possible, you've done your 50 percent--and then some. The scouts, even as young people, have to meet the troop in the middle an