desertrat77

BadenP, well said!

Yes indeed...previous to the Oscar dlr shirts, all of my '70s green shirts were collarless. You could buy the green shirts with collar or collar free, but I seem to recall almost all the scouts I knew had collarless because it was easier to wear with the neckerchief...my adult leaders tended to gravitate towards the collared shirt and the use of bolo ties. I think the Oscar collared shirt really closed the curtain on widespread neckerchief use. Even in the '70s, the standard neckerchief was small, not as functional as its larger historic predecessors, and was more of an annoying decorative accouterment rather than a dependable item that also served as a truly distinctive scouting identifier.

JoeBob, pumpkin pie would be great year round! Nothing better for breakfast than a slice of pumpkin pie and a couple cups of coffee.

...or the appeal is so sticky that national is working thru it slowly.... Probably a stacked deck on the troop/district/council angle. Also beyond doubt, at least in my mind, is a well-meaning mom's attempt to put the best shine on her son's misbehavior. Whatever the scout did, he did it in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong people...a small sin would not crank up the "good old boy network" to the level that has been intimated thus far. I think both leadership and scout chalked up some big demerits...so it's probably like that big ball of tangled rope in the quartermaster's room...it's going to take a full meeting, with a couple cups of coffee, of sitting on the floor to untangle the thing.... That said, I don't think mom has an obligation to tell us anything. Yes, some of us made some comments "with the bark on" that may have not been so pleasant for a mom to hear about her offspring. Overall, I think she rolled with all the punches and took it far more gracefully than most parents would. It would be nice to hear the final outcome, but the family is entitled to privacy, even if mom leveraged the collective knowledge of this forum to form a battleplan. I wish mom and son well. As for thread length, I make a motion that we keep it going for as long as possible, and stray from topic as much as humanly possible.... JoeBob, any pie left? I'll put on another pot of coffee.

Truly depends on their scout spirit...there are folks who have been scouts and scouters for years, with a scouting CV a mile long, yet their scout spirit stinks, to put it plainly. Why they stick around is a mystery. On the other hand, there are men and women with zero scouting experience who "get it" from day one...the scout oath and law are creeds they were already living before they became scouters, and their willingness to serve--and not be served--is evident to all. Just one of these adults is worth a dozen of crusty old know it alls.

SMT, I can identify...a couple thoughts: - Winter camping, for some, is something to be feared, like deep sea diving...when I was a SM, I had an identical situation with a winter camp. Only a few went. In retrospect, I would have had a special meeting with the parents to explain, face to face, what gear to bring and reduce their anxiety level regarding the safety of winter camping. True, only a few might have shown. Though only a few went on the camp, it was a hit...record snowfall. - Emails and flyers: Folks just don't read emails or flyers. Whether they are too busy, or just don't have it in them, many parents just won't take the time to even skim. The best way, I think, to catch parents' attention in a timely manner, is via their scout...when he goes home and pleads his case (to the point of annoyance!) how much he wants to go to camp, then the parents will respond, even to just get him to be quiet. The key is making the sales pitch to the scout...then they sell their parents. It's tough to leave a scout behind who may have wanted to go...but if his parents didn't do their part, and the scout didn't do his (making his wishes be known, earning some cash to go, etc.), well, that's an invaluable lesson in and of itself. It's disheartening when only a few folks come to an event, be it parents meeting, camp, whathaveyou...it can be a special event for those made the effort to go. And the folks that didn't go? They can be the most vocal critic in the world, but they can never say a) they didn't know and b) they had an opportunity to do something, but they chose not to go. The troop does its 50%, they have to do their 50%...it's up to them..... Then when the scouts come to the next meeting and rave about how cool the event was, the scouts that didn't go will catch the hint, and put the full court press on mom and dad next time so they won't get left out.

JoeBob has the right idea...time for some pie!

True story: when I saw this thread title, I wondered "Veteran's bar? Are we discussing having a cool beer at the VFW?" Cheers! DR77

Eaglescout1996, I can identify...my scout-era jacket was too small by the time I got involved in scouting again. And I certainly wasn't going to buy the expensive BSA coat made overseas. I kept an eye on ebay and found 2 of the size I was looking for, within the space of a couple weeks...it was money well spent. The quality is superb, even after the years and miles put on those jackets by their previous owners. One has the official pocket patch (not sewn on), one doesn't. I'll wear one around town on errands and such with civvies (when I'm home)...amazing how many people say "Hey, love that old scout coat!" If the ebay jackets weren't available, I'd certainly consider buying a civilian equivilent, made in USA, before I'd buy the BSA version. I thought about sewing my old Philmont Bull and OA backpatch on...but I kinda like the clean look of just the red wool. Best wishes!

Mmhardy, sorry to hear about this...do you have any background or links where I can learn more about the subject? I love the Great Lakes! DR77

Spent almost four years in Alaska as a scout...camped, backpacked, you name it, year round. We went outdoors one weekend a month, as a minimum, regardless of the weather. I thrived on it then...but now? Zero desire to winter camp! I know the tricks of the trade and have picked up many more on this forum...but as I get older, I've got to admit I'm a fair weather camper by druthers. In my military duties, no problem with any weather extreme, glad to be here/proud to serve! Off duty? I'll go outdoors in any condition, it's just the "druthers" factor again. Perhaps when I retire and start career number 2 I'll want to get back out in the snow...but for now, Uncle Sam is providing me many opportunities to either be extremely hot or very cold!

DWS, thanks for sharing that story! My Sears pack was a Hillary II...as you mentioned, poor hip belt, plus on the frame there was a bar that ran horizontally down near the small of the back that was curved inward--towards the back! Dug into your back every step, every switchback. My brother had one as well, with the same medival design, so mine wasn't a fluke. That particular 50 miler in the GC was primer in how not to gear up for a backpacking trip...'70's waffle boots (cheap and weighed a ton)...the aforementioned pack...my 10 dollar sleeping back that weighed about ten pounds (like the waffle boots, cheap and heavy...roll it as tight as you can and it's still 20 inches in diameter...tough to roll and strap to the pack, so I started sleeping in my poncho [good, functional, 2 dollars, bought at Yellow Front]).... Two years later went to Philmont...mowed lawns to pay my way, and spent 35 bucks for a classic Camp Trails external frame backpack...it was sublime! Far superior to the Hillary II. Waffle boots gone, bought a pair of standard issue combat boots (16 dollars and superb once they were broken in)...wore those till I outgrew them. PS Best wishes with the new pack...looks like a good one I'll take a look at. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Nancy, I'm very sorry about the situation...I hope calmer seas are ahead for you and your son. The other posters have given superb advice. The only personal thought I'd like to add is if you are going to invest in two quality items, I'd recommend a good backpack and a good sleeping bag. When I was a scout, I used military surplus, Kmart brand, etc...these items worked just fine. In fact, I still have many of them...cheap, functional, and tough. The only items that gave me grief were a) a truly awful Sears backpack (hiked the Grand Canyon with it, 50 miler, and I still can feel that poorly designed frame torturing me, lo these many decades hence!) and b) my 10 dollar sleeping bag...spent many cold, sleepless nights in that thing!

I liked collecting the old red/black patrol patches long ago. At their peak, there were approx 60 different ones (I think). I managed to collect fiftysomething.... Once an old scouter heard I collected them, and proceeded to give me a box that contained about 300, the remaining stock of a council office. He bought them during the transition to the multi-color patrol patches of the seventies, and was glad to pass them to me. All told, there were probably 30 different patches, alot of dups...not too long ago, I found a troop that enjoyed wearing the old red/black. So I gave them the box and they took a bunch so they'd have a stock on hand for future patrol members. Very cool to see those old patches around after so many years. Though I didn't think much of my old seventies patrol patches when I was scout (panther, flying eagle, fox, antelope), I went back and collected them as well. Not nearly as many choices as the red/black (was there about 25?) but they are very colorful and funky now to look at.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Eagle92 and Kahuna make solid points! I was a scout 74 - 81. Earned Eagle in 77. My camping merit badge has the non-required border around it. The ideal to reach out urban scouts was valiant...however, the way it was presented turned off many scouts--urban, suburban, and rural. As with many efforts by National, then and since, scouting's best selling points were left out and replaced by gimmickery (sp) or trendy notions, or emphasis on numbers. Thankfully, the new scout handbook is a solid step in the right direction. It wasn't scouting's finest hour, true...but thanks to the dedication of adult leaders in many troops, the spirit of scouting was kept alive because they countinued to instill old scouting values and skills. The tried and true stuff wasn't against the rules--it just wasn't emphasized under the new program. We still went to camp, earned the lifesaving MB, went to Philmont, cooked over fires, chopped down trees, performed service projects, etc. Of the three councils I was in as a scout, I can't remember one Eagle who made it without being a solid outdoorsman. Because of my experiences during that era, I believe the heart beat of scouting is at the unit level, whereever that unit might be...inner city, suburbs, or in the country. That's the great thing about scouting.

Sorry, double post.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Depends on your location, and the collective experiences of the rangers and fellow campers at the park. For every troop that respected the other campers, there's another troop that showed up and raised cain...scouts being rowdy at all hours, while the SPL and adult scouters sit in their lawn chairs and let it happen. Many people go to parks to have a quiet weekend...if they've ever camped next to a loud scout troop, they'll never forget it. In my days as ASM and SM, I always advocated camping away from high-use public campgrounds for that reason. Scouts will be scouts and even the most disciplined troop will make a bunch of noise at times. Whether it's camping or just standing in line at a fast food joint, you can tell well-led troop right away. There may be 30 scouts, but if they are led properly, they conduct themselves like gentlemen and are welcome anywhere. For the undisciplined troops, there may be only ten scouts, but if the are acting like fools, every citizen sees it and it goes on BSA's tab, for good or ill.

True, the boss is the boss...the board members will dress as they please. Yes, they should have more respect for the candidate and dress appropriately, but this is a reflection of society as a whole. We live in an era where people dress too casually at the wrong times. Used to drive me nuts when my oldest daughter would go to a formal high school dance, and I'd see the contrast in formal dress. The girls dressed to the nines, but the boys dressed in jeans, sneakers and opened collared shirts. People travel and shop in clothes that should be in a rag bin. Put on a tie? The horror, the horror! See it in the military too. Granted, we are at war but there are times stateside to wear formal clothing...but the pushback is noticable at times, not only from the younger troops, but senior folks as well. Why can't we wear ABUs/BDUs/flight suits to event X instead of service dress, is a frequent question. Answer: At certain times--ceremonies, boards, and the like--the right thing to do is to put on a tie and look sharp. Sounds like the soon-to-be-Eagle understands the value of dressing appropriately...I wish him the best, and believe that he will instill the dress and appearance values in his troop someday when he's a SM.

Eagle92, I can't speak on behalf of the UP since I'm not a member, but my hunch is yes, you'll have to submit your resignation from the UP. Your common sense, flexibility, gentlemanly demeanor, and good humor will probably make you ineligible from further service in that august organization. My deepest condolences! Desertrat77

I see this saga as a big "whodunit"...we have clues, but do not have all the facts. I doubt that we ever will, and that's okay. Off topic, but I was intrigued by lj's mention of an Eagle Oath...a quick search turned up a series of Eagle oaths, pledges, challenges, and charges. None seem to be an improvement over the scout oath and law that all scouts recite.

Eagle92, I get what you are saying. Some places I've been, there are old timers that are resentful of the young folks...and it's hard to say why. Perhaps the older scouters are jealous because of missed opportunities from their own youth...perhaps they want the young folks to jump thru hoops before they become part of the "team"...perhaps it's basic insecurity, because they know trainees are going to naturally gravitate towards a more dynamic, accomplished young person. It's a darn shame this happens because the young adults who have "graduated" from scouts (to me, doesn't matter what program they were in or rank they earned) are really the best salespeople we have as far as articulating what scouting is all about, getting other folks to training, and encouraging them to stick with the program. As a footnote, I'm not worried about anything that National does. They have their job, we have ours.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Barry, I respect your point of view and am glad you teach a class on the subject...but frankly, I think I'm in the best position to decide 35 years after the fact whether I gave something a chance or not. In my case, we tenderfoot scouts in the newbie patrol didn't have the avenues to pursue relief from the bully PL. There was no committee. No SPL or other senior scouts. One ASM who was hit/miss because of school. The SM was the bully's dad, who knew and condoned his son's behavior. At the time, I think we scouts viewed the situation as unsat, but we were all small fry (sixth grade) and the bully was in high school. So we just pressed on because we liked to camp and such. Granted, advancement was zero. We were young and just didn't know any better, so we put up with a bunch of garbage. But we hung in there, I'll give us tenderfeet that much credit, retroactively! So in a mature, properly functioning troop, I can see your model working. But as an adult, I'm going to assess the situation, and if the bully is a known quantity, and his victims too young to figure out things on their own, I'm stepping in and will make no apologies for it. Yes, the young ones need to learn how to handle difficult situations. If it's a standard squabble between scouts, they should learn to handle these things without an adult stepping in every second. But a bona fide bully? You have to get their attention early, and if they can't toe the line, they need to be asked to leave.

Stosh, well said and thanks....

In an ideal situation, the boys could have dealt with it...but this isn't ideal, and I don't think the boys had a chance from day 1 to deal with it. The key fact is the rowdies and their parents have acted this way since their cub scout days. The rowdies were going to do it their way in the troop from the minute they crossed over from Webelos. They've never dealt with any consequences that stuck, and it seems to me troop leadership probably would not have done anything even if the PLC spoke up in the early days. Process aside, if there is even the beginning of a pattern of abusive/bully behavior, I'm not waiting till the scouts work up the courage to do something about it. I'm going to act immediately. There are issues that are best solved by the scouts, true...it gives them a chance to learn leadership. It's a safe environment to fail, if you will. But abusive behavior? Zero tolerance. The scouts, and their parents, are depending on us as scouters to provide a safe, postive scouting experience. Coddling rowdies, or letting bully behavior go unchecked in the hopes that the victims will take the first step is frankly a failure of adult leadership, in a scout setting or elsewhere. If you suspect this is a hobby horse for me, guilty as charged. As a military brat, I was in a scout troop as a tenderfoot where the SM's son was not only a bully, but also the PL of the newbies. Everyone knew this PL was a bully but no one did jack about it. Even if we did figure out what to do, who would back our play? No one. And it made for a very long year in scouting till we moved again. Hence my position that waiting for the victims to make the first move regarding a bully may be fine in theory, but often impractical.

Lisabob, I think Eagle 732 said it best when he advised his rowdies to pursue their scout careers elsewhere. We spend alot of time these days, in classrooms, scouting, and sports, talking to troubled youngsters that ruin everyone's experience, hoping that the talk and the 5th/25th/555th "second" chance will get them to change their behavior. Only concrete consequences, tied to substantiated poor behavior, will get their attention. Evmori is right, adults should handle this...one more time and they are history. Otherwise, who is going to speak up for the scouts who are living up the oath and law?