desertrat77

BDPT00, good catch, agreed, pls consider the following re-write of that sentence: The rules allow a multitude of patches and other doo dads...an adult scouter, following these rules, can legally have a shirt covered with patches, dangles, etc. However, the Eagle patch, or whatever the former scout rank held, is forbidden. I find it interesting that given the hundreds of doo dads an adult can wear (and some adults try to wear them all!), only their former advancement patch is expressly forbidden. Are we worried about "stealing recognition" from the scouts? If we already had uncluttered uniforms, I could buy that. But go to any district or council event, and tell me who has more stuff on their uniforms--scouters or scouts? Personally, I wouldn't wear my old rank patch...but I sure support the concept of allowing the individual choice.

Eagle92, I get it now re the pin, thanks for the clarification. Memory can be a tricky thing, but I just don't remember people getting so up in arms about the minor details of uniforming back in the day. As a scout, I remember the emphasis on full uniforming, but there was always room for some individual creativity/eccentricity. In my Philmont trek group photo (late 70s), my SM is front/center, wearing the oval Eagle patch on his uniform. Such practice wasn't common, but it wasn't uncommon either. So we have strong feelings on the subject, pro and con. Healthy discussion. However, uniforming rules are not holy writ. Some rules are to be followed to the letter, like safety, etc. Uniforming rules, on the other hand, are administrative matters, and should be open to discussion, revision, and also provide leeway for individual options, particularly in a volunteer organization. It is interesting to note that at least in this thread, it's the Eagle patch that is the lightning rod. An adult scouter can cover his/her uniform shirt with every doo dad known to mankind, yet it's perfectly within the bounds of the "rules" and accepted practice...but that little oval red/white/blue patch is forbidden....

NJCubScouter, good afternoon...there was a small oval lapel pin, many years ago, that was a sterling silver version of the then-current cloth patch. They are very collectable, and you can find them on ebay occasionally. I was lucky to get one several years ago...they are works of art, the likes of which you don't see today. I think they were primarily for wear with civilian clothes, but I could be wrong. Personal observation: As far as adults wearing their rank from their scout days, Eagle or otherwise, I saw it more in the '70s...adults wearing Life or Eagle cloth patch. No one made a big deal about it.

Eghiglie, kudos to your Eagle, that's true scouting spirit! Agreed, it's up to the scout and his parents as to how big or small the ceremony will be. There is a trend towards the "coronation" ceremony...these tend to be tacky and way over done...just my opinion.... I'm a big fan of folding the Eagle presentation into the normally scheduled COH...very cool to see the new Tenderfoot share the same ceremony as a new Eagle. Makes an impression on many folks who normally would not come to the Eagle-only ceremony. This was how I saw my first Eagle presentation...big troop court of honor, with all the MBs from summer camp, plus Tenderfoot thru Life, and at the end, they lit the Eagle candle and pinned the medal on our JASM...a few words, round of applause, and join us for cake. Simple yet quite an impact...really put the hook in me to get moving on the scouting trail.

We could use a new training culture. Frankly, most of the training I've been thru over the years has been pretty ho hum. Metal chair warming time, watching checking, Powerpoint Death March. The instructors meant well, but they were clearly more enthralled about minutia and perpetuating the training cadres' culture than presenting a dynamic, give-me-more view of scouting. In other words, the training was to the cadres' complete satisfaction...but what about the trainee? If it is just a square filler, won't be many takers for future courses. There is a great gulf between Woodbadge and the other training classes. Big difference in the energy and resources expended by councils between the two--night and day. If councils put even a fraction of WB's resources into their other training programs, we'd really have something. Keep WB as a capstone, but make the other training courses interesting, vibrant and applicable to what's going on. A big footstomp: Training cadres must be respectful of new scouters...that's something that crops up every now and again. Many trainers are seasoned scouters, part of the councils' "old family" and can be condescending to their students. Big mistake and a huge turnoff. New volunteers have tons of experience in life, but then run into Mr./Ms Knowitall at scouter training, and that can make the difference between sticking with the program or finding another volunteer organization where they are respected.

Eagle92, that's a great idea...my previous council did something similar with great success. Well worth the effort but as you mentioned, there are well meaning folks in key positions that often stifle new ideas, particularly if it involves physical activity (and leaving behind the giant horse trailer full of gear). The cool thing is the scouts really dig the challenge, and the fresh ideas! Best wishes, Desertrat

Eagle92, many humble thanks for the mentorship moment...well said and I'll wear my Eagle at the next ECOH......

It didn't get this way overnight...it won't get fixed overnight. National must set the tone. The obesity "shot across the bow" is a step in the right direction. We should recruit the type of leaders that GaHillBilly so eloquently described: "...real skills, a personal love of adventure, a genuine concern for boys, and natural leadership ability AND the time to apply all those to Scouting." Here's the rub: those folks are out there...but it's the issue of the "old tribe" of leaders being resistant to new folks, and the new folks taking a measure of the old tribe and saying "Heck, I like scouting but not enough to put up with this OR do I really want to be associated with this type of fellow volunteer?" District and council have to seek those outsiders as well. Tough to do, because many old timers may not be of the adventure mold, but they've paid their dues, so to speak.... It's worth the effort, though, to seek that diverse group of potential leaders.

BP, in my last 3 assignments, I spent many, many evenings in military formal wear (graduations, banquets, ceremonies). While the concern for military recognition is admirable, I think there is little chance of someone confusing military decorations with scout items. Personally, I would not wear scouting accouterments in civilian formal wear, except for the Eagle medal during an Eagle ceremony (even then, that's a maybe). In my military uniform, I wear only what is required--no optional items. Scout uniform, same--less is more. But that's me. Others feel differently. For them, I think volunteers should have some flexibility in what they wear, within the bounds of good taste and proper decorum.

emb021, point well taken, I'm well aware of the "regulations." Uniform regulations are written by well-meaning people who are attempting to maintain a standard within an organization. But good judgment is applicable. And in a volunteer organization, I'd say "individual expression" is an appropriate consideration ("heresy!") In the case at hand, I'd say this is the key question: " Would the wearing of a medal, device, pin, accouterment, etc., or a combination thereof, in formal clothing, at a respectable event, bring discredit upon the Boy Scouts of America?" If it doesn't, it becomes an internal/administrative issue of whether we are following "the book." I've got to admit, I'm getting a chuckle out of this one...we are talking here about a couple of duly earned medals in formal wear...are we worried about uniform "clutter?" If so, we should look at our standard scout shirt, particularly adult leaders who are wearing every doo dad and gee gaw possible. The fabric of their shirt almost groans from the accumulated weight of it all! And we're sweating a medal or two in this thread? Count me as a scofflaw on this issue!

As long as you've earned it: Wear what you want, when you want. For those that wish to refrain from wearing, refrain. Each point of view has its merits. Let each respect the other.

Beavah hit it on the head. The scouting program is cool. The non-outdoor uniforms and chunky adults make it tough to convince naysayers otherwise. Uniform experiences from yesteryear: Cubs, early 70s...wore that blue uniform with pride everywhere. If authorized, I would have worn it every day. Boy scouts, mid 70s to early 80s...four different troops, three locations (overseas, plus AZ and AK)...some ridicule but nothing serious. Even the super funky far-out red beret was tolerated for the most part. Compare to other clothing from the 70s, a red beret was actually kind of tame. The nerd factor: my troops always seemed to include everyone under the sun: geeks, jocks, comedians, non stop talkers, introverts, eccentrics, you name it. Nerds were only a small part of the total troop population. And most of the time, we all got along fine. Today's geek factor: seems there are more nerdy adult volunteers today than in the past, particularly at district level and higher. I don't recall adults back in the day chasing knots and recognition like I see now. The uniform police are much stronger now, and quicker to quote chapter/verse to correct trivia.

Indeed, the bivy and/or light mummy is perfect for summertime, and in the winter, the light bag inside the heavy bag will keep you warm even in bitter cold. Haven't used the bivy bag, but it's durable and well made. And though it seems hard to believe, all three items fit quite well in the storage bag without alot of stress and pushing. Final product is very reasonably sized. Agree with SctDad, take just what you need and save some weight.

Eagle732, the 4 part system is superb...Uncle Sam really got it right! Suitable for scouting, yes. You have plenty of options for warm or cold nights. Cleaning should be outlined on the sewn-on label. Vast improvement over the old GI "chicken feather" bags.

GWD-scouter, I think that's the key...your son is still showing that scout spirit. He earned Eagle, and every scout can see that patch on his uniform. He's still in the program, and a respected leader in his troop. Doesn't get much better than that!

BDPT00, I could be wrong, but I never considered palms to be advancement, now or back in the day. Even a young guy, I understood Eagle to be the end of advancement, and palms were a method to keep a scout interested in mbs and active in the troop. Palms may indeed be recognition, but Eagle was enough recognition for me. Others may have a different take.

Not impressed with the new stuff. Over-engineered, looks baggy on most folks. Perfect for the cubicle at the council office, or a metal folding chair all day Saturday at a training event, or strolling through the buffet line. Ebay will continue to be my best source for uniforms...pre 1970, the BSA knew how to make some really tough, functional yet good looking uniforms.

After striving to achieve Eagle, the palms seemed anti-climatic. I was working on my silver when I turned 18...I needed two more requirements for the Public Health MB but the counselor couldn't see me the day before I turned 18. It's my own fault for waiting till the last minute, and knew it even then. Not finishing the palm doesn't bother me. In fact, the bronze and gold palms were pretty casual affairs. I imagine your son is enjoying not being on the advancement fast track, and if he's concentrating on his SPL role, kudos to him...it speaks volumes because he's giving back to the younger scouts, and honing his leadership skills...much more valuable than the palms.

Fellow scouters, I understand your concerns...too few positive male role models in the world. Too true. I see the results every day, as do you...young men who are unprepared for adult life. They aren't bad people, they've never had the influence of an adult male to help them get started in adulthood on the right foot. To be blunt, if the BSA is supposed to be a glimmer of hope and provide that positive male role model cadre for our young men, its failure is bigger than we think. There are great men in the BSA, and just as many not-so-great men. I'll refrain for now of citing examples. Girls need that male role model as well, hence my position that scouting should be coed. To keep BSA all male might provide a scout here or there that golden opportunity to be influenced by a male role model. But that's far and few between. Just like PTA, soccer, home, school, church, you name it, the ladies by and large are raising the kids of America. And have been for about 20 years. The status quo is all the more reason for coed scouting. Are our men irresponsible and self indulgent? Are our ladies raising mama's boys and perpetuating the irresponsible/absent male role model? Are both genders expecting something of the other that isn't coming true? Perhaps if they learned at an early age to interact with the opposite sex, this might help things when they become adults, and both genders will have a more balanced view of the other. I think the BSA has a great opportunity to make a difference in the lives of both boys and girls. And from an organizational viewpoint, this might be the cause that jump starts the BSA again.

Great article! Old school scouting...community leadership, simple functional uniforms...focus is on civic duty instead scouting being a "past time"...neckerchiefs look like they can actually be used as a bandana or cravat.... And progressive. Boy and girls in the same organization. As I travel for Uncle Sam, I'm amazed at the difficult challenges children deal with in other countries. Orphanages are common. Some are strictly for "throw away" kids...one might have kids with kidney failure, another for kids with cancer...no treatment available, they literally stay there until they die. For kids that live with their parents, schools may not have electricity, or heat, or indoor plumbing. Our standard scout camp latrine would be a luxury to them. These circumstances breed lack of identity and discontent, and make the kids targets, as victims of all kinds of crime to include human trafficing, child labor, or extremist ideology..... Yet I'm continually amazed at how strong people can be, despite the difficulties and having no safety net. I guess I'm agreeing with all, that scouting is a godsend for many children. I think in America, ironically, our scouting program may not prepare our kids for adulthood as well as some of the small but mighty programs in impoverished countries.... And we have kids in America that are living in just as dire circumstances as I've described, to one degree or another. Scouting would do well to reach out to them. But we don't have that old troop planting philosophy as we did in the early day of scoutings. And frankly, I don't think alot of scouters at district level and higher are up for it. Our great movement has solidified itself as a middle class past time (yes, thankfully there are exceptions). The BSA could make a big difference in people's lives; as a hobby though, it's going to stay static or recede. PS. I'm just as guilty of the "past time" approach to scouting programs label as the next guy, if not more. Just observing and realizing.

Best thing to do is admit that most UCs are names on a roster, and announce a roster purge. Too many UCs just come to the monthly UC meeting, and rehash the same old district and council intrigues. Unit level scouting gets scant attention. UC rosters need fresh blood. And I fully understand how UCs can get bored, or how potential UCs might avoid signing up. Team with NESA. They are finding Eagles every where...some are just the right folks to roll up their sleeves and help some units.

Buffalo Skipper, that's a tough situation. I'd recommend telling him like it is...specific examples of his behavior, the negative effect it has (sets a poor example for those he leads, the tarnish on his reputation as a scout)and some consequences for continued disrespect, such as delayed advancement, or removal from his leadership duties. Sorry this seems harsh, but I'd venture a guess that he's never really experienced the consquences of his actions. It's tough to hold a scout back, but it sounds like he has the drive to achieve...and I'll bet he's up to the challenge of proving everyone he's better than that. I know some of the setbacks I experienced as a scout...my tenures as PL and SPL were not wonderful every day, and I had some pretty blunt but truthful feedback from my SMs. Each time, once I worked thru the Stages of Grief, and came to Acceptance, I sure tried to do a better job. I am glad I learned those tough lessons as a scout, and not for the first time as an adult, when more is at stake. Scouting should be a safe place to learn lessons, even some that aren't pleasant, such as coming to grips with personal shortcomings. Lastly, I'm grateful you are the leader for this scout...you obviously care for his welfare, and you have my deepest respect for your leadership.

I'm all for co-ed. I respect the opinions to the contrary; however, I can't help but wondering when I read them what we are really saying about our youth. Are our boys that fragile? Are our girls that profound a negative influence? If so, it begs more questions that the potential co-ed status of scouting.

Eamonn, I share your concerns...I am reluctant to donate to local scout councils (and national) because of the reasons you've stated. Twocubdad outlined an option I really like...the units can best utilize contributions, and the scouts themselves will tangibly benefit.

Each troop is going to have it's own culture as far as uniforms goes. I'm all about proper uniforming, but there is a difference between high standards and then just wearing everyone out with endless sub paragraphs on uniforming details. Sometimes the standards become ends rather than means to an end. Enforcement of uniforming can be demoralizing if there is too much emphasis on minute details. Am I advocating anarchy? No. Just balance.