acco40

If the quality (and environmental laws, labor laws, etc.) are on par, I could care less where my uniform was made. Isn't Scouting a world wide organization?Why should the BSA supply division have one supplier anyway? Competition, within reason, is good.

Let's look at the facts. "One reviewer" disapproved of the ear ring. Now, as a SM who has been trained out the proverbial ying-yang - one of my pet peeves is BOR committee members who don't get trained, don't wear the uniform and don't know the program. There are many. I find it reprehensible that some committee members don't wear the full uniform during a BOR. But, we are in the business of Scouting for the boys, not for the adults. One of our methods is adult association. News flash - not all adults are perfect. Forget about the adults in this situation for a minute. This experience should have been used to educate the Scout. If I was the ASM/father - I would have had a long discussion with my son. He needs to learn that their are SOB adults out there. He needs to learn how to deal with them. Walking away, quitting, etc. is not the best response. What has he done for the next boy who may not meet the dress code for that individual? I think this is a classic case of cutting off one's nose to spite his face. In my day, long hair was the issue du jour. We've got beyond that (I hope). What if a youth showed up with red tints in his black hair, black finger nail polish, black lip stick, an eye brow piercing, etc.? Personally, I wouldn't have an immediate problem with it but would wonder why the youth feels such a need to "stand out." Sometimes the reasons are very innocuous and at other times very troubling. As a SM, I would hope I would know something about this kid as an individual.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Life is a great teacher. This young man found out that ear rings are not universally accepted by everyone. He could have very easily removed his ear ring(earring?) and got on with his life. He chose a different course. As long as he is willing to live with his choices, I am in no position to pass judgement. For myself, we have a pair of identical twins in our troop. The only way I can tell them apart is one wears an ear ring, the other does not. Ona personal level, I don't like piercings period. I see it as an unecessary health risk for something that has no benefit. I'm currently disappointing my 10 year old daughter who believes she is the only girl in the world without pierced ears. Heck, even Oprah bows down to the vagaries of what our society judges as "beautiful." WIth the risk of sounding racist, pierced ears is about as appealing to me as the African women who put those big disks in their lips stretching them out or putting rings around their necks. Women are beautiful creatures in their own right without painting, stretching, or poking holes in their bodies.

But Vicki, that begs the simple question - How do the kids and their families know when it is "School night for Scouting?" Again, the real question to me is should the school (principal, teachers, etc.) be permitted to make judgement calls on who should be able to speak to their students? I say a qualified yes. Oops - missed the poster on the bulletin board part. It's been along day!(This message has been edited by acco40)

When I was involved in Cub Scouts we (Pack representatives) asked for permission to talk with each class for about two minutes about Scouts and also to place a flyer in the chidrens classroom folder (actually, have the classroom teacher place it). The school/PTA was NOT the CO of the Pack but the vast majority (over 90%) of the Cubs attended the school. The principal gave us the okay but we also needed each individual teachers okay too. The Pack also performed service for the school throughout the year and the adults who presented volunteered heavily at the school. No mention of religious principle was made. No application were handed out. Information about a Join Scouting Night was given along with a very short (two minutes or less) description of Cub Scouts and our Pack. Now, my children did not have to listen about the Lutheran Choir but they were exposed to "sales pitches: for - Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts, school choir, after school activities, charitible fundraisers, booksales, DARE program, MADD program, Club Pride, and on and on. These organizations are given permission on a case by case basis. I don't view this case as the public school discriminating based on religion at all. One could argue about the merits of the Cub Scout program and the judgement of the school for allowing recruitment but that arguement should be centered around the merits or lack of merits of the program and not legalities.

Thanks. My memory isn't as good with blonde male actors as it is with female blonde actresses. :-)

FYI, on the last day of NYLT (for participants) the SM should attend. Besides dinner, he has a meeting with the course director/SPL/SM of the NYLT to learn what the course is all about. One of the most common complaints the youth had about the old JLTC course was that their unit SM did not let them practice what they were taught. Old habits die hard but the NYLT tries to remedy that situation.

Don't forget Leonardo DiCaprio in a Boy Scout uniform in one of the Raiders of the Lost Ark movies pre-Spielberg / homosexual controversy (before he disassociated himself from the BSA).

Hunt - I agree, the "fun" while hard to quantify, should be apparent. One thing I've noticed is that the younger Scouts, especially if they are a tight knit group from a single den, are usually not overly welcomed by the 13-14 yr old boys. No hazing or teasing mind you but in reality just a normal response for boys at that age. Just like in the workplace, if a large group of newcomers rapidly "joins up" there usually is some resentment from those who have been there and they may feel some resentment toward the newcomers. The older older boys (15 and above) don't feel as threatened. Again, another reason I like age based patrols.

Regardless of how you think this guy feels about you I would talk to him first. Two-deep leadership is required for all outings - not all meetings. Last fall, two of our patrols decided to have a patrol outing (no adults required). It was the first time they had done this. I, the SM, gave them permission to do this. Actually, we (the troop) shared the same Scout ranch, it was just that the NSPs and the SM/SAs camped at a different location within the ranch. The first night the temperatures dipped quite a bit below freezing. No running water was available (shut-off for the season) and most of our water jugs, while not frozen solid, had spigots totally filled with ice. The next morning, I alone drove over to the site where the regular patrols were camping just to see how things were going - and with some fresh "non-hard" water if needed. Was I violating G2SS rules in doing so? In my opinion, no. In others opinion, who knows.(This message has been edited by acco40)

When visiting a troop, ask if they work on merit badges during troop meetings (they should not). Ask what they (the troop) does to make sure your son will advance (they should not ensure anything - advancement responsibility should lie with the Scout.) Ask them what are the goals of the troop. If it is to help produce Eagle Scouts - run away. The following is something I picked up along the way - possibly from this forum (BW are you the author?). I find it handy and give it to prospective Webelos parents who visit our troop. Some Common Traits of Successful Troops 1. Currently trained adults. 2. Leaders wear correct uniform. 3. Scoutmaster concentrates on training Junior Leaders, and knowing the needs and characteristics of each scout. 4. They use the Patrol Method for everything. 5. They follow the contents of the Boy Scout Handbook. 6. The committee supports the decision of the scouts, they dont make decisions for them. 7. They have at least two Assistant Scoutmasters. 8. They recognize scouts three times for each advancement. 9. They DONT use troop meetings as merit badge classes. 10. They plan everything in advance and put it in writing. The difference between a wish and a plan is a plan is written down. 11. The only rules they have are that scouts and leaders follow the Scout Oath and Law. 12. They get outdoors once a month (even if just for a day event) 13. Troop meetings are filled with hands on activities 14. New scouts make First Class, First Year. 15. They keep in contact with Webelos Dens year round. 16. They select leaders they dont recruit them. 17. They participate in District and Council events. 18. They attend Roundtable. 19. Adults smile and play nice together. (If you are not enjoying yourself then neither are the scouts.)

One of the things that I don't like about some individuals wrt the BSA, Boy Scouts in particular is the emphasis on the Eagle rank. All ranks have the well known "shows Scout spirit" requirement - NOT JUST EAGLE. A Tenderfoot Scout should be leading his daily life by the Scout Oath and Law no more or no less than an Eagle Scout. However, everyone seems to focus on Eagle. Why?

In our council (I thought it was a national rule but obviously not) a Scout needs a Scoutmaster recommendation regardless of age. A 16 year old Scout who does not get a recommendation by his SM does not attend. It also sets a 1st Class (hard) and minimum 13 yr of age (soft) by July 1 (class is held one week later) requirement. One of my boys took the class at 12, one month before turning 13 because the course director and his SM found him to be mature enough to take the course. At these ages 12 - 17, age is not a very good indicator of the maturity level of the boys. Come to think of it, I don't think age is ever a very good maturity indicator. For many of these Scouts, camping with boys they may have never met before is a real challenge.

Just to play devil's advocate ... The G2SS states in bold: The use of liquid fuels for starting any type of fire is prohibited. Now what constitutes a fire vs. a flame? Does the rule prohibit white gas? Well, the same document talks about the use of liquid gas stoves and laterns. Just another example of confusing BSA regs? From a safety perspective - go with propane.

First, just like real estate, the three most important thing about can drives are location, location and location. In my state, Michigan, one lone pop bottle can fetch ten cents. In other states five cents. In California - TBD. In others, just the price of the scrap material. For our National Jamboree fund raising, myself and three Scouts went out, unannounced (no fliers) and for an hour and a half of collecting and an hour of redeeming raised $118, slightly above average for the other boys. When I lived in Missouri, which paid a flat fee per pound for aluminum it may have raised all of $1.25. I found that the week after the Super Bowl, New Years eve, Christmas holidays, etc. are good times to collect.

I'll try to be even more blunt than my first post on page 1. The BSA determines what constitutes a uniform wrt the BSA - not individual troops (i.e a troop may not state that in our unit we don't require Scout pants). A uniform is not required to be a Scout. When in uniform (BSA uniform) one should salute the flag. Their is an activity uniform and a field uniform recognized/defined by the BSA. All the above are straight facts. The following is my opinion: The BSA tries very hard not to be perceived as quasi-military (we have many BSA troops in foreign countries - think about it!) or as an endorser of hunting.

Whoa Nelly! Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are two very different beasts. At the Cub Scout level, a family oriented program where parents and even grandparents may serve as Akela - the expectation that each family should have an adult volunteer is a good rule of thumb. This DOES NOT mean that they should be registered Scouters. They can volunteer to help organize the Pinewood Derby, Blue & Gold Banquets, Pack Carnivals, etc. The Boy Scout level is not necessarily a family oriented program in the same way. Adult association works best with non-parents. Yes, parents can help out with transportation needs and other areas but program and event planning should really be done by the boys with registered leaders providing support. Now for Cubs, how you market your expectations does matter. If at a join Scouting night someone proclaims that "All parents have to volunteer for something." may turn some off. Most want to know what they are getting into before they volunteer. If the Pack presents a list of possible volunteer positions, with a brief synopsis of the duties involved, to each parent and asking what they would like to do to assist the pack (it may be as simple as baking cookies - something I could care less if they have BSA training for) it goes over much easier. (This message has been edited by acco40)

When the OA does the ceremony - it helps to have an emcee (the Cubmaster) who is aware of what is going to happen. He should make a brief statement about the solemnity of the upcoming ceremony and politely ask for quiet/attention. We always dim the lights - that seems to quiet down the Tigers. We then have the boys make a grand entrance, very quiet, stomping of feet so the only sound one hears is the bells on the "Indians" ankles as he slowly enters the "campground." The boys usually have the ceremony down, they need to learn how to project their voices. It is amazing how most 6 - 11 yr. olds look up to 15 - 17 yr olds. Our ceremony team has the right mix of fear, solemnity, and awe to hold the attention of the audience. Another problem is most B&Gs last way to long. They need to make sure the Cubs get a chance to get up and move around before a ceremony such as this takes place. Expecting 7 year olds to remain seated and quiet for more than 20 minutes or so at a time is expecting a lot.

Our contingent troop is going to offer JLT to our youth leaders and will be making it available to all of our contingent troop (5 in all) from our council. I suggest that the adult troop leadership conduct a JLT for the jambo troop youth leaders. Of course, the training will be offered before we epart for the Jamboree.

Philmont recap: Me - Strictly for Scoutmasters (PTC) Wife - Silverados (COPE !!) 13/14 yr old son - (birthday at Philmont) Broncos 12 yr old son - Trailblazers 9 yr old daughter - Ropers Who had the most fun? Tough question. The staff is excellent. The kids and my spouse made friends from all over the country that they still stay in touch with today. You and your son will love it. P.S. Philmont was in addition to, not instead of, summer camp.(This message has been edited by acco40)

First, do you currently have a position with the troop? What is your relationship with the current SM? Does he seek your advice on anything? If that relationship is rocky and/or he does not seek your advice, I'd tread lightly. If he does, I'd speak to him in confidence. Actually, this can be turned into a learning experience for the SPL if played right. Does the SM plan meetings? Does the SM plan outings or take over the annual planning conference? Have the SPL familiarize himself with the SPL handbook, BS Handbook, etc. and have him discuss with his SM what he feels his role is and what it should be (in a very non-confrontational, non-accusatorial manner). It none of that works SEND THAT SPL MY WAY!!! I'm too busy trying to find ways to get the SPL/PLs to do their job!

Don't try and get too analytical. Just like you are not supposed to wear your uniform while fundraising (except for Trails End) - that does not mean that the BSA is against fundraising.

Great advice guys. I found it very helpful.

I'll admit it, I was not too happy with the boys who were elected last year in our troop. Six boys were eligible and the one who I thought was most deserving (never missed an outing, never missed a troop meeting, first class in first year, etc.) received the least amount of votes and other boys - who barely met the camping requirement - were voted in. Yes, I know the SM can "disqualify" boys before the election but I rarely do so - respecting the wisdom of the boys who vote. I've also noted that the OA boys from outside the troop who proctor the election seem to know the rules but just go through the motions when giving an explanation to the troop about the election. I'm preparing a speech/discussion about the OA to give to the troop outlining what I see as the "right stuff" for membership. I'm not going to mention any of the boys by name. Do any of you have any good suggestions for content? Obviously, what I mentioned last year did not work too well. For the record, I'm not to worried about the troop electing boys who may not deserve membership (in my eyes) but am more worried about not electing Scouts who may be worthy in my eyes.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I don't like rules ... Our troop requires ... What the heck? All registered youth and leaders should wear the proper uniform. Non-member of the BSA should not wear the uniform. A uniform is not required. There, I got the formalities out of the way. In our troop, the SM and SAs usually wear the uniform. On the committee side, it seems that only the advancement chair will wear the uniform (my wife). As SM, I "suggested" to the committee members that it sure would help me out with getting the boys to wear the uniform if they did and especially at BORs. They all looked at me like I was nuts. I am disappointed that they choose not to wear the uniform but alas, what to do. P.S. I've tried many of the suggestions (BW has some great ones) and even presented the CM members with the "trained" strip after we all took the CM Challenge together but still no takers. (This message has been edited by acco40)