acco40

My son was elected to the OA at the age of 11, called out at 11 and went through his ordeal one month after turning 12. Now 14, he has regular attendance at the OA meetings, is a brotherhood member, participates in a ceremonies team, service projects, protors elections, etc. Other boys in our troop, ages 13 - 16 do diddly squat with respect to OA. They went through the OA just to get the sash and flap and that was it. Don't pre-judge based on age. I'll be truthful. Although there are boys who are slightly older than my son in the troop (some by over a year) they are all at the same grade level. He has no real older Scouts to look up to in the troop. The OA, with a smattering of 19 & 20 yr olds, present great role models for him that he can more readily identify with than his 48 yr old SM (me) or the other mid-30 to 50 yr old leaders.

Ditto to Semper. I count them the same way. Another "urban lengend" that floats around is that only "tent" camping counts and not cabin camping. Again, the SM (unit leader) may determine what counts and what does not. If you are familiar with TroopMaster, one can fill in the type of camping and regardless of what one chooses the user has an option of crediting that camping or not.

Good laugh pack! I guess when I go to Jambo this summer I'll make sure my pants are hiked up so I don't get arrested. I just love legislators who pass laws to "build character."

I agree with NJCubScouter. People often confuse "right and wrong" with "legal and illegal." Some state (or municipality?) just passed a law making it a crime to wear ones pants with their underwear showing (the proverbial low rider fad amongst some of our youth). Where I live (Michigan) and a few other states are legally an "at will" employment state. Companies may fire employees "for any or no reason" and the flip side (which many don't really think about) is that employees may resign for any or no reason. A company recently decided to fire any employee who has traces of tobacco in their system. That is, for them, it is cause for dismissal if one smokes not only on the job, but at home. Many don't like it, but it is legal in my state(oops, the state with which I reside). Personally, I feel banning employment or BSA membership due to sexual orientation is wrong - but not in a legal sense. For years, people have tried to "justify" homosexuality stating that it is not a "choice" and conversely, others have tried to condemn it believing that it is a choice. Behavior is alway a choice, feelings are not. Regardless, while an interesting scientific question, the "answer" should not really influence the legality issues.

First, welcome to the forum Prairie Scouter and how about the Fighting Illini! With BSA membership cutting across a wide swath of Americans, there are bound to be differences - political, religious, etc. - between members. Many of us do have our issues with the national council. But like you say, change from within is difficult. In time, the BSA will change, as it always has.

Our district and council has a formal award called the "Unit Award of Appreciation." Each unit has the opportunity to select one individual from their unit - registered Scouter or not - to receive this award. Sadly, barely half nominate someone. I always thought that this award was "national" but I may be wrong.

We have been taught that recognition should happen in triplicate 1) when the BOR has been successfully completed (immediate via an announcement), 2) after the above, immediate procure the patch and present to the Scout, 3) formally at a COH. Now an Eagle is slightly different in that after the BOR, natinal is involved. So in that case I would see only two forms of recognition. For the particulars of when the badge should be presented - since the Scout has the responsiblity of planning his Eagle COH, should not the Scout make the decision of when to receive and wear his well deserved Eagle badge?

Here are some of the rules that I believe are critical: 1) Make sure BEFORE any fundraising commences that how the $$ raised are to be distributed is communicated to all. What the percentages should be (50/50, 100% to Scout, 100% to troop, etc.) is not as critical. 2) I've found that the greater the percentage that goes into a Scout account, the greater effort some families give. 3) Always allow unit families the option of contributing $$$ directly. As SM, I go round and round with the CC on #1. His approach is to see how much money is raised and only after that fact can a "wise" appropriation of funds be made. For example, the troop needs to buy tents; expected expenditure is to be $600. So, the first $600 raised goes to the troop, the rest goes into the Scout accounts of individual participants. For me, when it comes to money issues I like to have the rules stated up front to avoid arguments later. So, percentages, is $$ based on amount raised or time spent, etc. should all be determined a priori. As for #2, what to do about families that never participate in fundraisers that are for the troop general operating budget? See rule #3! Some families are cash poor and time rich. Some are time poor and cash rich. In our troop, we have a mixture of both. Set an expectation - i.e. each Scout is expected to sell enough popcorn to raise $100 for the troop. For those that choose not to participate, always "allow" them to contribute cold hard cash - the expectation is really to contribute $100/Scout to the troop by whatever means. And - don't forget, patrols can choose to have fundraisers on their own! Also, don't forget the proper paperwork (council approval) and no uniforms except for popcorn sales wrt fundraising.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Any relation to our former frequent poster aka the "Man of Steele?"

The BSA is aware of the marketing power of what it uses to promote itself. Look at who "the market" is for them. Look at who charters the most units. Heck, the KKK was a "values based program" and if I want to get even more snarkier - some of those values could be thought of as traditional (the superiority of the "white" race, denigration of Jews, Catholics, etc.). It just happens that those values, no matter how traditional, don't float my boat. Now, when an organization touts "values" it makes most warm and fuzzy. Certainly they must mean the things that I value and hold dear - most believe. For me, the term is mere pablum. If they were more specific and stated that they believed in the values represented in the Scout Oath and Law - that is quite different. I'd be behind that 100%! But, I would say that to be reverent one would need to only revere something. That something could be the great outdoors. Therefore, the declaration of religious principle is (to use a common phrase in Scouts) "adding to the requirements" of the Scout Oath and Law.

When I was involved with a Pack (before the Tiger program was fully integrated into the advancement program) we recruited new boys, specifically Tigers in the spring (April/May) so that they could enjoy the summer programs. That is the sizzle of the program! Therefore, we would not recruit a 2nd grader in May as a Wolf, but as a prospective Bear. The old question for rank advancement (to which I've never heard a definitive answer) is does ones participation in a school grade end the last day of school or the first day of school? For example, Johnny a 3rd grader, is working on his Bear rank. Regardless of how many requirements he completes, when he becomes a 4th grader he will be a Webelos Scout. Now, what is the timing for becoming a 4th grader, immediately after his last day of 3rd grade (i.e. June) or will he remain a 3rd grader right up until the first day of school in September? What commonly happens is that boys work on the rank that they have not earned yet in the summer so if Johnny had not finished with all of the Bear reqs, he could work on them in the summer and if he had completed them, he could begin working on his Webelos reqs (with his den leaders approval).

Most, but not all, crews in our area seem to be auxiliaries of the troops - i.e. Troop xxx and Crew 2xxx with the same CO and many of the same youth. Yes, to some a crew is jsut a co-ed troop with no NSPs. Some have been formed with a specific high-adventure goal in mind - i.e. sailing. Anyway it does get confusing. Now, about a crew member earning Eagle. I thought that only if the Venturer is involved (dual registered) in the Boy Scout program could he (not she) continue with rank advancement (Star, Life and Eagle).

In all my years of Scouting, I'm always most amazed by uniform questions. People always seem to be looking for reasons not to wear a uniform. In my experience it is always appropriate for Scouts and Scouter to wear a Scouting uniform at any Scouting function. I've only been asked to not wear my uniform once. That event was a business FOS breakfast where the requested attire was business casual.

Sir Winston Churchill quotes that are quite apropos to posters on this forum: A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room. A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. and of course finally: It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.

I've seen kids handle the cars - an drop/damage them. However, I've seen adults do the same and I'll tell you what, I sure would not want to be the adult who has to explain to the Tiger Cub why I dropped his car! What I noticed about first year Cubs (primarily Tiger or Wolf) is that the PWD is sometimes the first real competition that they experience. In concrete terms, some car comes in first, some car comes in last. Many are not prepared to handle that. My son "expected" to win as a Tiger and he did. I did NOT like his attitude. Did I do some of the work - yes. I also had him do much of the work (polishing the axles was his duties). The next year was similar - with him taking on more responsibilities. The next year, he didn't want to to the tedious work (filing wheels, polishing axles, weighting, etc.) but still expected to win. He came in close to last and was flabberghasted! He finally learned that you get out what you put in to car. A good lesson to learn - the earlier the better.

"Liberals do not feel this to be true. Conservatives do." Rooster - you just don't get it. I don't pretend to so omnipotent to believe that I know how liberals and conservatives feel. If I had the power to brand what conservatives feel or think I could very easily trash them or hold them up on a pedestal to suit my desires. See, that is the problem. Feel free to discuss, debate, etc. any issues you want but please refrain from trying to label those thoughts. Yes, I remember the 60's. Back then, conservative was a dirty word to most. It conjured up images of racism, pro-war, Nixon, etc. Archie Bunker / Meathead debates (really the 70s) were the stereotypical labels of the day. Was it fair or accurate? Of course not. Now, again, I don't want to debate the abortion issue proper but how in the world can you put either a liberal or conservative label on the belief that a fetus (or pre-born baby or whatever description you would like to use) should or should not have legal protections as either liberal or conservative? Trevorum - take it from a long time forum poster; the issues and politics section bounces all over the map and should only be entered with caution - especially if one's main purpose is to learn about Scouting.

Whoa Nelly - news flash! An official BSA piece of literature that attempts to define active!

Personally, I don't think females should be allowed into the OA because they often talk to much and repeat themselves. Sorry, I could not resist. Seriously, the Boy Scouts has traditionally been an all male organization - slowly but surely allowing more female participation. Females were allowed to hold pack leadership positions in the '70s. Female scoutmasters were allowed in the '80s. One of the methods was changed from "adult male association" to just plain "adult association." I have no problem with it. But the OA is a Boy Scout (not Venture) organization. I think the real debate should be "should the Boy Scouts become co-ed?" If so, let female youth join the OA. If not, keep things the way it is. Because the OA is a Boy Scout organization, I would not want to see female adult members unless (until?) Boy Scouts allows female youth.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Just a couple of thoughts ... 1) VentureScoutNY - you can't reword a quote. You can disagree with it or create your own or possibly correct a misquoted "quote" but sorry, one may not reword it. 2) Rooster - I've got a suggestion for you. Why not debate ideas without having to apply a label to them? As soon as you type some ridiculous statement and then attach a label (usually "liberal") to it, you lose your credibility. Should a sixteen year old girl who desires an abortion have to (in the legal sense) inform her parents before a doctor can perform the procedure? Before you try and answer that (I'm really not asking for anyones opinion in reality) think about the "liberal" and "conservative" labels for a second. Most would label the position that the young woman should be able to proceed with the procedure without her parents consent or knowledge as the "liberal" position and the "conservative" position to be that the parents should at the very least, be informed prior to the procedure. But if put into the framework defined by so many self proclaimed conservative talking heads that I hear on the radio today of liberals believing in "more government" and conservatives in "less government" the labels should in reality be reversed. The point is, why spend any energy at all trying to label these positions and just debate the merits of the argument? {Or as I learned in kindergarten - stop with the name calling.}(This message has been edited by acco40)

Let's see, what is the SM supposed to do? Train and guide boy leaders. Work with other responsible adults to, bring Scouting to boys. Use the methods of Scouting to achieve the aims of Scouting. Hmmm, I don't see anything about filling in the TM database. Ideally, the committee secretary, advancement chair, training coordinator, outdoor/activities coordinator, treasurer and others would have input into TM. Should a troop use one "master" database gatekeeper or allow many fingers into the pie? Good questions which I suppose are highly dependent on what the individuals involved want and are capable of doing.

A T-shirt does not make a uniform - but the activity uniform is considered a uniform. The activity uniform is identical to the field uniform - socks, belt, hat, pants, etc. except for one small difference - the shirt. A troop T-shirt or other appropriate dress may be worn with the activity uniform. For many outdoor Scouting activities - the field uniform shirt is not appropriate/practical attire. Therefore, it is very appropriate to salute while wearing one's activity uniform.(This message has been edited by acco40)

VAordeal - a conservative at your age? What is the world coming to? One of my favorite quotes is from Winston Churchill: Yes, but in the morning I'll be sober ... wait not that one. Any 20 year-old who isn't a liberal doesn't have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isn't a conservative doesn't have a brain.

Fellow Michigander DancinFox is correct for the Central region. The other regions do them differenntly. Take a look at the course offerings for 2005. Central Region C-02-05 (MN) C-03-05 (SD) C-07-05 (WI) C-10-05 (IA) It is "C" central region; "XX" registration number, "YY" year of course. Southern Region SR-654 (TX) SR-655 (TN) "SR" Southern Region, "XXX" number of course(??) Western Region WM-62-04 (CO) - held 2004, Western Region Metro Area, 62nd course WE1-106-05 (ID) - to be held 2005, Western Region, Area 1, 106 course Northeast Region NE-I-227 (MA) Northeast Region, Area I 227th course NE-II-143 (CT) Northeast Region, Area II, 143rd course So, all regions "number" their courses differently to keep us on our toes. And of course the one that makes the most sense comes from the best region - the Central Region. Go Bears!

Judge not, lest you be judged. Judge with right judgement. Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement. Now where have I heard these before? To judge or not to judge - that is the question.

Much has been written in the press lately about the health benefits of tea - especially green tea. However, read the following: A 52-year-old suburban St. Louis woman with a stiff spine and aching back had already been to several doctors. Most told her she had disc disease. But Dr. Michael P. Whyte, a bone specialist at Shriners Hospital for Children and at Washington University, discovered the real problem. She had a disease that afflicts people in remote regions of Tibet, Mongolia and China. Skeletal fluorosis, it was called. Skeletal fluorosis happens when people are exposed to high levels of fluoride for long periods, causing the chemical to creep into bones and replace calcium. The bones become dense, weak and brittle. Sometimes the disease causes ligaments to harden and changes bone structure, causing pain and crippling. In countries where the disease is endemic, water drawn from wells is often contaminated with fluoride from surrounding rocks. In the United States, where drinking water is filtered, low levels of fluoride is added to prevent tooth decay. But that's not enough fluoride to produce disease. Whyte set out to find the source of the fluoride in his patient's painful bones. He reported a study of her case in the January issue of the American Journal of Medicine. The woman, who declined to be interviewed, used toothpaste and mouthwash with added fluoride, but didn't swallow the substances. Whyte ruled them out. She rarely used Teflon-coated pans. That ruled out another potential source of fluoride exposure. Pesticides, chewing tobacco, wine and some sparkling mineral waters also may contain fluoride, but the woman didn't have much exposure to those either. The unfiltered well water at the woman's suburban home contained 2.8 parts of fluoride per million parts of water, higher than recommended, and probably enough to cause mild disease over decades. But the level was not high enough to account for the excessive amount of fluoride in the woman's urine, Whyte said. And then the woman mentioned an unusual habit. She drank one to two gallons of double-strength instant tea every day of her adult life, she told the doctor. Studies of people in Tibet and other areas where people drink large amounts of "brick tea" have shown that the beverage can be a significant source of fluoride, even leading to skeletal fluorosis. Brick tea contains mature leaves, berries and twigs of the tea plant, Camellia sinensis. Those parts of the plant often contain high levels of fluoride that tea plants absorb from the soil, Whyte said. Instant tea is often made from brick tea. Whyte tested the woman's tea and found that her beverage of choice added 26 milligrams to 52 milligrams of fluoride to her diet each day. She drank a total of 37 milligrams to 74 milligrams of fluoride every day by Whyte's calculations. The Environmental Protection Agency allows up to 4 parts of fluoride per million parts of drinking water, based on the calculation that it takes at least 20 milligrams of fluoride per day every day for 20 years to produce crippling skeletal fluorosis. The Food and Drug Administration permits only 2.4 parts of fluoride per million parts of bottled water. The World Health Organization sets the optimal level of fluoride in drinking water at 1 part of fluoride per million parts of drinking water (equal to 1 milligram per liter of water), to 1.2 parts of fluoride per million parts of water. It sanctions an upper limit of 1.5 parts of fluoride per million parts of water. The U.S. Public Health Service says the concentration of fluoride in drinking water should not exceed 1.2 parts of fluoride per million parts of water. Whyte and his colleagues bought several jars of instant tea from a local supermarket and sent them to two independent laboratories in St. Louis for testing. The teas contained between 1 part of fluoride per million parts of water and 6.5 parts of fluoride per million parts of water, some that exceed levels considered safe by government agencies. Consumers shouldn't be alarmed by the results of the study, Whyte said. The amount of fluoride in tea fluctuates from batch to batch even from the same manufacturer, he said. The fluoride levels reported in the study are a snapshot of the range of concentrations that may be found on a grocery shelf and should not be generalized, he cautioned. "This is one look in one city at one shelf at one time," Whyte said. The woman's symptoms improved over a five-year period once she switched to lemonade, Whyte said. Most tea drinkers have nothing to fear, said Dr. Michael Kleerekoper, a professor of medicine at Wayne State University in Detroit. Drinking tea within normal limits will probably not cause any health problems, he said.