acco40

Good points fling1, of course the CO/COR makes the judgment calls on who is fit (after the BSA screening) for leadership within the unit. Knowing my CO/COR, they may be okay with a "fling1" but would surely remove a "fling2", "fling3" or higher. :-)(This message has been edited by acco40)

Well, John, at my place of employment the "customer" keeps asking for lighter and lighter combat vehicles that provide more and more protection. So, if you have a secret formula for those lighter ones that still have the same protection please clue me in! And yes, I was a handful for some of my teachers who had a narrow view of things. Don't get the wrong impression. At school I was mostly well behaved, got good grades, had good "social graces", etc. but was somewhat naive. I remember in 6th grade I came on to the realization that we did not have to do what the teacher said. Not to be disrespectful but our options were to either follow her instructions (teachers were overwhelmingly female back then) or suffer the consequences of our actions. I was not a rebel type or anything but maybe a little slow on the concept of self determination. At a younger age I couldn't even fathom NOT doing what the teacher said. Anyway, during the lunch hour I was casually and quietly discussing my new found knowledge with a fellow student when the teacher over heard part of our discussion. All she really heard was me telling the other student that she did not have to do what the teacher said. Well, you can guess her response and a young Acco40 spent the day in the hallway. It was there that I then came to the conclusion that my teachers were not infallible. Hey, it is all part of the growing up process.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Eager leader, your religious leader and your husbands religious leader are irrelevant. What is important is your son's religious leader (perhaps you or your husband?) If that is you, why not something as simple as helping out a senior citizen in some small way? The purpose of the requirement is to introduce your son to service and to get him to experience the benefits that providing service to others can bring to him. For this reason, the requirement states service "for someone else." It does not say for a non-profit, a charitable organization, the Red Cross, a food bank, etc. The reason I believe is because at this young age, a Webelos Scout can get better feedback by providing service to a living breathing individual that he may actually know and be able to better comprehend the results of his actions. JMHO. Let's look at the requirement (see below). Most of these can easily be done without membership in an "organized religion." In fact for the first one, why not have your son visit a house of worship that he is not familiar with, observe and complete the rest of the requirement? 8e) Do two of these: Attend the mosque, church, synagogue, temple, or other religious organization of your choice, talk with your religious leader about your beliefs. Tell your family and your Webelos den leader what you learned. Discuss with your family and Webelos den leader how your religious beliefs fit in with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, and what character-building traits your religious beliefs have in common with the Scout Oath and Scout Law. With your religious leader, discuss and make a plan to do two things you think will help you draw nearer to God. Do these things for a month. For at least a month, pray or meditate reverently each day as taught by your family, and by your church, temple, mosque, synagogue, or religious group. Under the direction of your religious leader, do an act of service for someone else. Talk about your service with your family and Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel. List at least two ways you believe you have lived according to your religious beliefs.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Mr. Z's left a Playboy magazine on the bathroom counter. The next month, the subcommittee met at Mr. X's house. As you all assemble in Mr. X's living room your are shocked to see a large 3-D, realistic looking sculpture of a human form being tortured to death, his face in agony, blood dripping from his body, etc. What kind of artwork is this you ask! Is this anything to show to young impressionable boys? What else does Mr. X have in his house and what could he have possibly been thinking? You come to realize that while the showing of beautiful women in magazines may not be your cup of tea, it pales in comparison to showing such graphic, gruesome, violent acts as that shown in prominent display at Mr. X's abode. Is this proper behavior to use as a role model for our youth? What type of twisted mind would display such violence and suffering? The next day you promptly inform your council office about Mr. X. The SE calmly asks you to describe the sculpture in more detail and then he tells you that it is a common religious icon that many Christians, especially Catholics, find comforting. You are horrified to find about what in your eyes is some type of twisted religious cult that glorifies pain and suffering. Now, all you moral absolutists that would banish Mr. Z for having a publication that displays, as the Eagles sang, "the only work of art", that morality, like beauty, is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Regardless of our political opinions, we owe our soldiers, marines, airmen and seamen the best equipment, intelligence, training and support we can possibly provide. This conflict deeply saddens me.

I hope your committee meetings don't focus on patches like our have. Drop by the Watson subcampand say hello if you get the chance.

The "anti-troop rules" camp seems to be concentrating on rules that govern behavior. Fair enough, the Scout Oath and Law cover those fairly well. But again, nobody attempted to answer my questions in a previous post: "Let's say your troop, oops, the troop you are a member of, charges $25 per Scout for new members. Should that be written down and if so where? What equipment is provided by the troop? Tents? Tarps? Sleeping bags? Should that information be written down and again, if so where? If the troop charges dues, the amount and schedule - should it be written down somewhere?" Troops meet on different nights. Should your troops meeting night be written down somewhere for prospective members? Just because some go overboard with rules doesn't mean that rules, guidelines, etc. should not be used at all. On a political note - I wonder what all of those posters, who I view as somewhat "right" on the political spectrum, feel about mandatory sentencing by judges. If you feel SMs and SAs should be given leeway in their judgment, why not judges, who have much more training than the average Scouter, be free to do the same? P.S. Eamonn, be glad your son does not go to school in Michigan. A student with a knife gets a mandatory STATE WIDE expulsion from school for one year (we call it the you have to go to school in Ohio rule) for any student in possession of a knife. When I was a Bear Den Leader I asked the school principle if we could do the whittling activities at school, after hours (evening) with one on one adult/Scout supervision. Obviously the answer was no.(This message has been edited by acco40)

"In my view, if he drinks enough to violate the law, that's also clearly immoral, because he has a moral obligation to obey the law." Hunt, I respectfully disagree. If one violates a law, ones behavior is illegal, not necessarily immoral. I feel I have no moral obligation to obey the law. I have a civic duty to obey the laws of the land and a moral obligation to "do right." In those rare instances where I feel a law is immoral, I may not follow it. BW, before we judge Mr. Z as a dimwitted SA with questionable morals, what about my council executive who gave the okay for Cub and Boy Scouts to attend an NFL game (BSA sponsored event) with scantily clad cheerleaders who he knew would be in attendance? Ithink you draw lines in the sand much to easily.

Absolutes are rarely correct. Regardless of what one calls them, rules, guidelines, bylaws, etc. are not an anathema to Scouting. Let's say your troop, oops, the troop you are a member of, charges $25 per Scout for new members. Should that be written down and if so where? What equipment is provided by the troop? Tents? Tarps? Sleeping bags? Should that information be written down and again, if so where? If the troop charges dues, the amount and schedule - should it be written down somewhere? Another example - In Troop 1234, where every member owns the field uniform, it is stated on every outing permission slip and stated verbally by both the youth and adult leadership that members are expected to wear their field uniforms while traveling to and from outings. Mr. Smith, the Scoutmaster, notices just prior to departure, that Johnny is not wearing his field uniform. He tells Johnny he is not living up to the Scout Law (obedience is not present). The Scout, a frequent reader of this forum, pouts and firmly tells Mr. Smith that "You can't make me wear the uniform, it is not a requirement and you can't add to requirements! You are a stupid Scoutmaster Mr. Smith, didn't your training sink in?" Mr. Smith views this as uncourteous, unfriendly, and uncheerful and does not provide transportation to the outing for him. On the next months outing, Mr. Smith can't make it and Mr. Jones, an SA, notices in the CO parking lot just prior to departure that Jack isn't wearing his field uniform and when asked, Jack states that he forgot and that it was packed away and that he would be sure to wear it home and on all future outings. Mr. Jones says okay and off they went. Now, at the next troop meeting Mr. Smith gets an earful from Johnny's mom stating that he picks on Johnny unfairly. As evidence, she states that Johnny wasn't allowed to go on an outing because he didn't wear his uniform but that Jack was allowed. That is unfair and shows a clear case of favoritism in her eyes. Now, would a written guideline of some sort have helped or hindered the situation?

As others have said, getting a tax ID number is easy and does not equate with 501© (tax exempt) status. One word of warning - if you establish a tax ID number and don't use your COs, make sure your checking account does not generate income (interest). If so, there is a tax liability.

Not only is it on the web site, it is "spoken" on the site so proununciation is taken care of too. Yes, at my Ordeal, the admonition was whispered to me and I had no idea what was said. Later that day, I asked others, including the Elangomat (sp?)and got inconsistent answers. Lo and behold, the web site led me down the correct road.

It is all warm and fuzzy to say the adults should deliver the program and the youth (really all) should follow the Scout Oath and Law. Now, lets get back to reality. A Scout gets mad at someone and purposely slashes a troop tent. This is where I think bylaws, guidelines, etc. may be useful. A guideline may simply state that the PLC will determine the appropriate actions to take for Scouts who do not live up to the Oath and Law. Conversely, it may simply state that the Scouts family is expected to pay for damaged equipment. I agree that many units do go overboard with bylaws, rules, guidelines, etc. For example, "A scout must attend 50% of all meetings and outings in order to be considered active." is overstepping the requirements bounds. But, I would not go so far as to say no bylaws or guidelines are useful. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Deja Vu all over again (look in the archives). Ah, the new Army - maternity BDUs! I learn something new every time I visit this forum!

In short - you get out of it what you put in to it and that goes for the adults and the youth. It is a l o n g process.

How to participate? Sign up and meet the qualifications. For example for the National Jamboree - be a contingent SM or SA, Staff member, etc. Another option, just go (Jamboree is a public event). For Philmont - do the same, sign-up. Parental observation is an opportunity, not a given.

I'll regret this but I can't resist ... Is Mr. Z morally straight? A resounding yes! If the yahoos who proclaim homosexual behavior taboo in the eyes of the BSA because of the interpretation that morally straight equates with heterosexual then ergo - Mr. Z is morally straight. Now of course the real reason is who knows. I bought a Playboy once for the specific purpose of reading the John Lennon interview contained within. Now, that said, it didn't prevent me from looking at the other contents of the magazine. I watch TV. I rent movies. I don't like all of the gratuitous violence, sex and nudity that is contained in those media. However, sex is a big part of the real world. American views are not in perfect alignment with Europe or the mid-East. Sex, nudity, etc. should exist in literature, art, entertainment etc. On the flip side try this one on for size. Mrs. Z, a physically fit, buxom, healthy mother, age 32, breast feeds her eight month old son in the back of the troop meeting room during a COH. Is anything wrong with that?

For ranks below Eagle, the purpose of "service hours" is to instill in the Scout a sense of community, service to others, etc. It is only for the Eagle rank that the service project aims include leadership. From that perspective, it is ridiculous to require a 1st Class or Star Scout to manage, lead, design his own service project.

My oldest made Life four months after turning 12, however, he had been in Boy Scouts for two and a half years. He becamse SPL. He was not prepared. Burn out settled in. I did not push him from a rank perspective but looking back, I did push a little from a leadership perspective. He found interests in OA and JLT training. Fast forward two years. He is in high school and low and behold, manyof his classmates are Scouts. He met some via his marching band contacts, National Jamboree, etc. He doesn't see Scouts as "uncool" anymore. He is a very mature 14 year old now. My second oldest, currently a 13 year old (7th grade) Star Scout battles me every meeting about the uniform (why do I have to wear the socks, the neckerchief is stupid, etc.) and complains that I "make him go." I don't but I realize that much of it is a stage that many go through at this age. It doesn't make it easy but don't lower your expectations. Also, make sure that there is not some underlying problem that may be turning him off (bully, can't swim well, self conscious about his body) or just a lack of program. I must admit, I do find it hard to try and figure out what excites the boys at this age which makes it vital to having them control the program. Good luck.

One thing I did not receive was a WB "regalia" instruction booklet. I've seen mini-controversies about the "beads" (no twist or one twist), woggle (can I wear the McClaren (sp?) Tartan with a standard slide?), when to wear, when not to wear, etc. Does anyone know of any reference material for this?

And what to do if the boys repeatedly ask to work on mreit badges during meetings?

Touche, I stand corrected Bob. My response was somewhat in jest of course. To all, as adult Boy Scout Leaders we should do our best to NOT try and dampen a boy's spirits. Why on Earth wouldwe tell him he can't or shouldn't work on a merit badge that interests him. Part of the value of the merit badge program is to interest the Scout.

I'd settle for having the committee members wear their uniform pants and shirts on backwards. I can't get the committee in uniform at all.

Wholly schmoolly! I get to state that Bob White, KoreaScouter, FScouter, Torveaux and Spiney Norman (I love that moniker) are dead wrong! A Scout should not work on a merit badge any time he wants to. He should first let his Scoutmaster know he is interested and then contact a MB counselor given to him before starting to work on the MB. ;-)

Let's look rationally at this and look at two different perspectives. 1. I'm an atheist. I observe someone who firmly believes in Christianity, heaven/hell, God, Jesus, etc. They try to be good Christians and besides having to endure a few prayer recitations, heartfelt attempts to get me to "believe" etc. I see no real problem with their religion. Luckily, they also believe in separation of church and state (render to Caesar ...). Not a big deal. I make no attempt to "convert" them to atheism. 2. I'm a devout Christian with a few friends who are "non-believers." Firmly believing in eternal damnation, I worry, plead, and try my best to get them to "see the light" so to speak. I obviously have their best interest at heart. I deeply care about them. Knowing the awful fate that awaits these good intentioned people who have not accepted JC as their savior I do my best to convert them. Now, should anyone be surprised that atheists would be much less likely to try and persuade others to their way of thinking?(This message has been edited by acco40)

Also, don't forget the purple "religious" knot. If earned in Cubs, it may still be worn as a Boy Scout. May not be kosher but my boys, for COH sometimes, put on their Pinewood derby medals on their Boy Scout uniform with all of their other regalia.