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Barry - your are correct, for the boys and in most practical cases, these are not issues. However, some people, including myself, like to debate these "what if" type scenarios. Now from my experience, if we totally left it up to the boys no problems would exist because 99.9% of the time they have to be reminded to say grace before meals, benedictions at COHs, etc.

Gungho4scouts - you've got to be kidding right? You think this is some outside activist attempt to create havoc? The BSA has had similar instances before. The professionals involved should all lose their jobs over such dishonesty. Think of the resources wasted by this - FBI man-hours, United Way Funds, federal grants (to a private discriminatory organization - another forum topic heating up), etc. I agree with Packsaddle, that this is an isolated case but when money gets involved, many do strange things. I'm in the process of re-chartering this month. I'll have to double check and make sure none of the Doe family are registered in our troop.

Barry - I don't think anyone, I know I don't, feels we need to keep our differences bottled up. Your Eskimo {or Inuit } example is a great example of celebrating our diversity. I love to learn about the differences and similarities in each others customs, foods, dress, religions, etc. It is fascinating. But I would not want to witness a lamb being slaughtered at one of our COHs as a sign of reverence. I don't care if a particular religion "promotes" that way of thinking. I was raised a Christian (Presbyterian) and seeing a cross is a reminder of my faith. However, the sight of a crucifix still gives me the willies. I don't feel comforted by it, I see pain, suffering, torture and agony. Did Jesus question his faith upon the cross? I don't want to debate that issue in this forum but let's just say a crucifix "sighting" doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy. It is not something I want to see in my hospital room. For others, especially those raised in the Catholic faith, my response may seem quixotic. Yes we should celebrate our diversity but we should also be sensitive and respectful to others. Recently, a public school in Michigan was teaching middle school (maybe it was high school I forget) reproductive health. As part of their science project, the students were asked to make anatomical models of genitalia (penises, vaginas, etc.). In our culture, that makes many very squeamish. Some students and many parents complained vehemently. When should individuals bow to the societal pressures of the majority? The minority? Those are tough questions. My take is that some effort not to offend others should be made. As Scouts, we have agreed to a declaration of religious principle - an obligation to God (not Buddha, not Jesus, etc.). As such, why have prayers with references to those individuals? Watching the boys in a patrol make out meals for an outing is an educational experience. Sometimes the majority forces its will on the minority - we don't care if Johnny doesn't like spaghetti - we are having it anyway! Sometimes they use the "okay, we like spaghetti so we will have it Saturday night but Johnny, since you don't like it you can pick Saturday's lunch and Sunday's breakfast." Sometimes the thought process goes - "okay, Johnny doesn't like spaghetti, so let's try and find a meal that everyone can agree on." I prefer the latter approach, but it is not always taken. And yes, if the first approach is always taken, as someone suggested, Johnny may not remain a member of that patrol very long. That is why I don't like the "Barry" prayer this week, "acco40" prayer the next and then the "Rooster" prayer the next week. Why not have a prayer all can agree on? Is it a big issue to me? Not really, but I think how people approach these types of issues is a really good reflection on their individual character.

Thanks. For future reference I'm going to advise my son that only he and the Scoutmaster should be aware of the election results immediately after the election. If a SM requests that he share this information with any other youth or adult member of the troop he should defer to the SM and inform the SM that that is his responsiblity and not the responsiblity of the election team (my son). I'm not a Lodge Advisor or officer, but I am a brotherhood member. Is the Guide for Officers and Advisors available to me?

I'm confused. If Mr. Scalise refused to abide the declaration of religious principle on his BSA application he should not have become a member. How can membership be "pulled" from someone who is not a member? If he was a member, who at the council office or at the national office screwed up by allowing membership to this man?

Webelo? I'm not sure what that is. Is that similar to the Tige, Wol, or Bea ranks? (Sorry, but one of my pet peeves is that individuals in the Cub Scout program refuse to learn the proper spelling of the Webelos rank/award/badge. A Cub Scout Pack 175 in Topeka, Kansas offers for purchase ($3.50) a unofficial patch called the Heavy Shoulder Award. (see http://www.cubpack175.org/heavyshoulder.htm). A link on that site also offers a free down loadable certificate. I purchased a few for the boys when I was a WDL a few years ago. They got a great kick out of it.

tma-1 - your two-deep leadership question: Does a husband and wife team (both registered leaders) constitute two-deep leadership? With the on-line youth protection training now available it states: Two registered adult leaders or one registered adult leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities. I could not find in the on-line literature (youth protection or G2SS) any reference to not allowing a husband and wife team to act as two-deep ledership. However, back before on line YP training was available I took the hour or so course numerous times with an YP expert (usually a social worker or someone in the field a la child protective services) and the training video it was verbally communicated to us during training that a husband/wife team did not meet the requirements from a youth protection standpoint. I can't find any written reference to that now. Now a den meeting is not considered an outing. So is two-deep leadership required?

In our lodge, election are usually in Jan/Feb and the call-out is not until June/July. As SM, I use to tell the parents of the Scouts elected but to many leaked that info to their son so I do not do that anymore. At the end of our election, the OA rep just tell the unit if the election was successful or not. If successful, an adult may be submitted for possible approval too.

Fuzzy Bear - my son took JLT-C in the summer of '03. He was in the "red" patrol and as such wore an extra red (about half the width of standardshoulder loops) loop on his right(?) shoulder. Being red and on top of his boy Scout red shoulder loop of the same color, not many people notice it. However, to this day he stills wears it on one of his shirts and is very proud of it. Some uniform faux pas I don't bother with (like my son's). On returning from a Camporee in Canada one year I wore the Scouts Canada Beaver shoulder loops (Canadian Cub Scouts so to speak) to my Webelos den meeting. I knew it wasn't regulation but I wanted to show the Webelos some of the sizzle of Boy Scouts and they served as a good conversation piece. No harm done in my book but some of the uniform police may have arrested me. Other uniform gaffs do bother me - like a leader wearing the untrainable patch (permanently). Oh well, that's life I suppose. Sort of like once a Bear, always a Bear (now about those Beavers ...)

I wondered how long it would take Rooster to pull out the "liberal" card. I must admit, it took longer than I thought. The "war" between Bush and Saddam was personal. Bush I invaded Iraq and left Saddam with egg on his face. Saddam put out a hit on Bush I that failed. Bush II "demanded" that Saddam act according to his wishes. Saddam refused. Bush II sent in troops. Bush would have found any reason at all to topple Saddam. My guess is that if Bush II demanded that Saddam build WMDs Saddam would have disarmed. What was most troubling to me was that our country has now approved a policy of pre-emptive strikes against a nation that does not pose an immediate threat. That - my friends - scare the heck out of me. Who will we pre-emptively attack next - the French because they don't support us? Cuba, because Castro thumbs his nose at us? Canada because she dumps snow on us? Our country should occupy the moral high ground and not stoop so low as the Saddam's, Stalins, Hitlers, etc. of the world. What is our justification for NOT invading Somalia, N. Korea, Chechnya, etc. Lack of oil?

Yes, and his adopted son became a fabulously wealthy actor in his own right and married -oops, I mean co-habitated with another fabulously wealthy (and good looking) actress on top of that who produced a not to shabby hockey goalie. Oh no, I seem to be mixing fact and fiction. In my observations, I noticed that adults unit leaders (over 90% male) with no sons in the unit tend to be some of the best and worst Scouters. They tend to be either the type that are truly in Scouting for the benefit of the boys, not just their son(s) and do a fantastic job or petty egotistical men who get a feeling of power by "leading" boys because in their real life they either have no leadership responsibilities at home or in their professional lives. And, by the way, the "good" types vastly out number the "bad" types.

" ... uniforms aren't worn in order to maintain a higher level of reverence in the meetings" - say what? Mr. Smith didn't like olive/tan? Last year I attended an Episcopal sevice at our CO church. Immediately afterward, I attended a Catholic service at my church (or should I say the church where I am a member so as not to upset JP?). For the record, I am neither an Episcopalian nor a member of the Catholic Church. For showing reverence, to each his own.

Yikes! For a minute I was worried that ISO had permeated the processes of Cub Scouting. that was a close one. We have enough standardization in our lives.

Last evening my son (our troop OA rep - Brotherhood member) helped to proctor an OA election for another troop. Last year I (also a Brotherhood member) accompanied him while he proctored an OA election for a different troop. Last evening his mother provided his transportation and accompaniment (and stayed outside the building) while I attended our troop's PLC meeting. Anyway, immediately after the election (it was successful) he counted the ballots with the Scoutmaster. Now I thought the results should be known by only my son and the SM at this time. However, the SM told my son that he needed to share the results with his troops OA rep. My son, being only 14 and not quite sure, honored that request. While not a big deal in my book I'm not so sure the election information should have been shared with any of the youth membership. Does anyone know the correct policy? Thanks.

But what about the time after the election but before the call-out? You don't wantthe lodge contacting elected individuals before their call-out.

MB counselors, while they do not pay a fee do fill out an application and do go through a background check (at least in my council). I don't see why they would not be allowed on outings. Heck, I have many youth in our troop whose parents are not "members" on any sense of the word so an adult without a youth member is no problem. If my troop had more SAs than youth members I'd still welcome an addtional SA if I thought he would be an asset. The benefit is in quality, not quantity.

Incorrect Trevorum - they are the Stanford Cardinal (color not birds). I believe University of California - Santa Cruz has a monopoly on Banana Slugs ('86 vintage).

Understanding the physiology of young boys helps. One of the problems is that older teens are on a much different circadian rhythm than the adults for sure but also from the younger boys. I've noticed on troop campouts the SPL and ASPL (tending to be in the older group) are sometimes the last to get up. However, often they are the last to retire. I've got a few SAs who insist that everyone get up once they are up. I can't fathom this reasoning. If a patrol wants to eat breakfast at 7:00 AM or 9:00 AM that should be their choice. I have two sons in our troop. One would prefer to sleep to noon (14.5 yr) , the other can't wait to begin the new day (12). As SM, and a late riser, I usually go to bed last on Friday evening. Before I do, I check with my SAs about who will be getting up first. I have one who somehow is asleep in his tent before most even figure out he is "missing." It is usually well ahead of the boys. He like to get up early so I give him that opportunity. Boys also need to learn responsibility. Once, during Webelos Woodlands (I was at the time both a SM and a WDL - I don't recommend it) the Webelos Scouts were all out of their tents and rarin' to go. Our two den chiefs were sound asleep. Breakfast was served at the mess hall. The den chiefs made the decision to skip breakfast and sleep in. Now, being somewhat devious, when our den returned from breakfast (it was now around 9:00 AM) the DCs were still asleep in their tent. By this time I asked the Webelos to wake them - and they complied with glee. For an outing where a schedule has to be met I meet with the PLC and ask them what time they should retire (quiet time, lights out and into your tent may all be at different times) and when they should arise. I then hold them to that schedule. Another example of letting the boys determine the rules.

The World Crest is purple so the purble shoulder loops seem plausible. However, I have no real reference to back that up.

I catch your drift but Webelos mode? Similar to Boy Scouts, only the Webelos den leader (or their designee) may sign off on requirements. For the other Cub Scout ranks "mommies" and dad (or any other Akela) may sign off.

The physical merit badge may be purchased by anyone off the street. At the next COH, present the First Aid merit badge to the Scouts mother. Maybe she will get the message (maybe she won't). I'll probably get crucified for this but here goes ... With many more mothers (fathers seemed to have always worked too much) in the workforce, what little time they do have to spend with the children they wish to spend it as friends and not parents. That is - avoid conflict at all costs and "help" them be successful. Sometimes this is done subconsciously out of the guilt they feel from working and not being a stay at home parent. I don't know how many times I've seen my wife upset (and she does not work outside the home) because of my son's late start on homework, scout stuff, etc. I have to keep reminding her that it is HIS grades, HIS awards and not hers. I think that some parents, mostly moms with school, dads with sports and either/or for scouts get too wrapped up in their children's accomplishments. Parenting is not an easy task to do correctly.

Eamonn - explain to me how a council can earn "quality council" but all of the districts who comprise the council do not earn quality district. I know that district A may meet, and far exceed, their financial goals (FOS, popcorn, etc.) but may be 1 Cub Scout short on meeting the membership goals. District B may be a few dollars short with their financial goals but far exced the membership goals so all in all the council meets their goals but it sure looks weird.

*** WARNING *** WARNING *** WARNING *** WARNING ***** YOUTH DO NOT READ ***** YOUTH DO NOT READ ***** The purpose of Scouting is to teach/develop leadership, physical and mental fitness, character and citizenship. Most youth (and unfortunately some adults)buy into the ruse that the purpose of Scouting is to teach them outdoor skills - cooking, camping, orienteering, pioneering, swimming, backpacking, first aid, etc. As stated by the Minnesota Scout - the SMs "job" is really not to teach these skills but to develop leadership in the boys. Holding, at a minimum, an annual JLT course is one of the ways he may do this. Another leadership course for youth is NYLT (National Youth Leadership Training). On a related note, I'd like to ask all out there if your district either allows or encourages the youth leadership (SPL primarily) to attend the monthly roundtable. From what I've seen, most do not. However, I think it would be a great benefit for us (adult leaders) and the youth leaders (specifically the SPLs) to attend.

Which is why many religions make reference to a "father" or "mother" in which we may project our childlike behaviors of faith, trust, and security. Ah, to be young again and not burdened with our adult knowledge. (written only with partial tongue in cheek.)

Ah, yes - Lord Robert or more specifically - Lord Robert Stephenson Smyth Baden-Powell of Gilwell.