acco40

First a few obsevations 1) Terry, how did you get us to time warp into the future? 2) Funscout, if God wanted Israel to be a land for Christians, God must be sorely disappointed because if you remove Muslims and Jews the population decreases dramatically. 3) Yes, the majority of our laws follow what can be traced to so-called Judeo-Christian beliefs. However, Judeo-Christian beliefs can be traced to other things. 4) DanKroh - who is Brigit? 5) Oh my God! Was that a pig I saw flying? I partially agree with Rooster's post (first part). However, although I believe in a representative Gov't, representatives should vote the way they feel, no seeking to satisfy their constituents. When they do this, they take the risk of getting voted out of office but man I don't want a form of government like American Idol where we simply vote. I elect a representative to office to make what I feel are intelligent ideas, not just my wishes. We can create computers and have enough pollsters that we could eliminate representatives if we went with Rooster's train of thought. 6) If God "guided" Columbus, who guided the humans who were already here? And, if God guided Columbus, was this the same God who let Columbus die of a long terminal illness caused by a rare tropical disease (Reiter's syndrome)? Who said, God had no sense of humor?(This message has been edited by acco40)

The city of Berkely (San Francisco) has a law that states that nonprofits which follow a nondiscrimination law don't have to pay for berths. The BSA, as a private organization has every right not to follow the non-discrimination law. Ergo, they pay for berths. I don't understand the controversy.

Participation, for the participation requirement, is an interesting topic wrt TroopMaster. For example: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 4 months as a First Class Scout (Star rank req #1). We have had numerous discussions on what is active. Let's say you use TM and all of a sudden you see that after four months from when Johnny earned 1st Class he now has Star req #1 completed by TM even though he has not been to one troop meeting, one outing, nor one service event. Why did TM do this? Well, unless Johnny was listed as "inactive" (see the personal data section) the assumption is that he is active.

My math challenged middle school Boy Scout discovered Texas Hold'em. He has seen me drink at home. A few times we have had family poker night (I rarely drink during this event). We do play for money (quarter top bet, three raise limit). He enjoys it more than I. Now, as SPL, he wanted to play Texas Hold'em as the troop "game" after a few troop meetings. As SM, I told him that possibly (I was going to run it by other adult leaders) but that we would use chips, not money, and declare winners based on chip count. I had no problem with this but understand that other parents may. I told him that I would need their approval first (I got it but we have not gone forward yet). Not popular with many, but gambling is a method to teach statistics, math, etc. I don't pass up those opportunities with my kids very often! Now drinking? I remember feeling a little weird at my first district event (members and spouses of the district committee and a few professionals) and alcohol was being served (no youth present). I had a beer or two and we were not in uniform. However, still felt weird. Now, on one outing a few years ago when I was an Assistant Scoutmaster, we were on a canoe trip. I jokingly mentioned to one of the adults attending (non-leader) that in my life BC (before children) I had many a float trip with too much imbibing of beer. Well, later that evening that adult was sent out to get some food for our meal. The current SM was not in attendance. Well, next thing I knew the adult came back with the food and a six pack. He opened up a bottle for each adult in attendance and I wasn't quite sure what to do (I was not the leader in charge). Well, my mistake but I discretely got rid of the beer and about an hour later after praising him for his generosity, told him of the BSA policy wrt alcohol. He apologized profusely and that was that. In my book, no harm, no foul (sort of). A college friend of mine told me about a Cub Scout event he took to a Cardinal baseball game many years ago. The pack had an outing to a baseball game. Every youth in attendance (non-uniformed) had a parent present. Well, my friend ordered a beer and drank it. He later asked me if he was in "violation" of anything and I told him that if he viewed the event as a Scout outing - yes. But if he viewed it as friends and their kids meeting at the ballpark (and the kids happened to be Scouts) - that no violation. He thought I was nuts and couldn't differentiate between the two. As for myself, I just try to be on the safe side - no drinking during outings. I've got enough to worry about!

jr56 is correct. The SM is in charge of the advancement program and desides which "leaders" may sign-off on requirements.

By the way, an Eagle BOR is not different than a Tenderfoot BOR wrt to the fact that if a Scout does not pass - if the board does not feel the Scout should pass, the board must let the Scout know the precise nature of the deficiencies and what must be done in order to be successful at the next Board of Review. The BOR Chair must send a written follow up, to both the Scout and the Scoutmaster, regarding the deficiencies and the course of action needed to correct them. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Great post Barry. As the son of a psychologist, one of the things I wish they taught SMs and SAs at either Wood Badge, Scoutmaster Fundamentals or some other supplemental training course is childhood development. About a year ago we had a troop election. The two oldest boys in the troop were interested in obtaining Eagle and not much else Scout wise. The next four oldest boys had Marching Band, Football, Wrestling and/or other conflicts with troop meeting nights. So, for the SPL election, that left only a few "middle aged" (13/14) year old boys who I thought might possibly tackle the SPL position. Well, my son reluctantly ran because another 12 year old decided to run and he would rather of not had him as SPL. My son, a very popular Scout (with the youth, not so with the leaders) won in a landslide. Well, his dad (alias me, aka Scoutmaster) butted heads with him a few times. He really was not ready to lead but to "fit in" which as Barry indicated is the natural response. As "dad" that was hard for me to accept emotionally but easily understood intellectually. Yes, many of the boys know that to take on a leadership position is also taking on additional work and may balk at it. But one thing I've noticed from the NSPs. The boy who has served as a PL (elected, not the one month "trial") usually has great difficulty in that leadership patrol but that makes him a much better patrol member in the future. He can relate to what the PL is going through.

Boy Scouts are by necessity, under the age of 18 (considered adult at 18 for Boy Scouts) and over the age of 10. However, those boys under the age of 11 must have either completed the 5th grade or earned the AOL. As for the average age of a patrol leader - well technically, even a NSP Scout can be a PL (for 30 days) at the age of 10. For troops that use "mixed" patrols, obviously the age is higher.

Nice, although I'd change the name. When using the phrase "the bird" it conjures up another image.

Loaded question - who selects/approves a youth for a den chief position? A den chief is selected by the SPL & SM at the request of the Cubmaster or Webelos den leader. He needs to be approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee for recommendation to the Webelos den leader. Now, SMs be honest, how many of you were told that "johnny is going to become a den chief for his younger brothers den" by Johnny's parents?

Three types: Polyester / Cotton (cheapest) Polyester / Wool (most expensive) Cotton (mid-range) I own the polyester/cotton and cotton. I like the cotton much better. I do not have the poly/wool type. I wear the cotton all year but it is slightly "warmer". I get all short sleeve.

SR450Beaver - If "security" allowed close to 1,000 virtual strangers to go the Ford Field to rehearse for the Rolling Stones on Friday evening, why not 75 Boy Scouts that they had names and addresses for and who had gone through background checks? Yes, I was at Jambo and do you know that the US Army informed the BSA as earlier than the Saturday before the Scouts arrived (most arrived on that Sunday) that their, the BSA, plans for the opening and closing ceremonies were a disaster waiting to happen. The weather conditions were not a surprise. The weather service had predicted the temps a week in advance. The military knows a little about crowd control. The BSA ignored the Army's concerns and went ahead with their original plans (for political reasons in my unsubstantiated opinion). Security should not be used as a blanket excuse to do whatever the authorities want to do.

Ideas should and can be debated. Why the need to label them as either liberal or conservative by so many? They do this only to use these labels in a pejorative context IMO. Take for example abortion. Most label the "pro-life" or "anti-abortion" stance as conservative and the "pro-abortion" or "pro-choice" stance as liberal. But, I thought conservatives wanted a less intrusive government, which would then reverse the labels. Christianity, is one of the biggest socialist movements on Earth. So why are the so called "right wing Christian fundamentalists" labelled as conservative? So, feel free to debate issues but don't waste your time trying to give them a label.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Your Scout shop should "just sell you one." However, they should also, "scrupulously" check everthing out. Why do both? For example, I earned my knots and have multiple shirts. I should be able to purchase twenty seven district award of merit knots for my twenty seven shirts (okay, I exaggerate just a little) if I wish.

I think many people forget that advancement is just one of the eight methods of Scouting. Too many parents, and regretfully some leaders, forget that advancement should not trump the other methods. However, because advancement may be the most easily quantified and the real goal of many, it is over emphasized IMO. The aims of Scouting can be met by Tenderfoot Scouts just as easily as Eagle Scouts. We should not forget that.

The NFL is one of the biggest (maybe THE biggest) corporate sponsors of the United Way which donates a ton of money to the BSA (local councils) every year. Please don't bite the hand that feeds you.

I get some flak from parents because we do not "do" MB at troop meetings. However, the boys decide, for the most part, what they want to do. I'm trying a new approach of making a month of meetings more of a patrol responsibility and not just the SPL's or PLC's. However, after the Christmas/Holiday break, I had the responsibility for one of the meetings. OUr outing the next week was to visit Wright-Patterson AFB, primarily the space museum. I essentially "taught" the aviation merit badge but I did not frame the troop meeting in that fashion. I did pass-out the merit badge worksheets and had a model jet engine, slide show presentation, model airplanes, etc. After the meeting, about 5% of the boys showed an interest in pursuing the MB. I gave them blue cards after they requested them along with the name of an aviation MB counselor. Even those who chose not to try and earn the MB learned something and some were inspired to go further. Now, would you consider that "holding merit badge classes at troop meetings?" In a way yes, but not an assembly line approach.

I know Bob and Paul - good people but ... We have a pet phrase in my area when things get screwed up - we just look at each other and say "Scouts." A few months ago they asked local troops to participate in this event. We were given a handful of dates to choose from. Well, at the last minute, after the boys were really salivating to help out we get a notice that those who signed up to help on Thursday and Friday could not due to "security issues." Why wasn't this worked out before hand? Did they not know that security would be high? I had to address a few hot headed parents and a troop full of disappointed boys (we were scheduled to help out on Friday). I noticed the Macomb Daily left that out of their story.

Yes, they can. I know some who hold both positions. However, some positions, as stated in BSA literature should be your primary position. FOr example, being a Unit Commissioner should be your primary position. So should being a Scoutmaster. Therefore, some would argue that you can't be both. Well, maybe it is not a good idea, but I know many who are so yes, one can.

"do not disclose their sexual orientation" What does that mean? By wearing a wedding ring, am I disclosing my sexual orientation? By sharing a house with my wife am I disclosing my sexual orientation? If asked, should I "abstain?" Lie? I have no problem with the BSA or the military banning certain BEHAVIORS, but "orientations?" Thank goodness the BSA doesn't have a litmus test for "impure thoughts."

I'm afraid that vmpost is confusing what "powers" the Scoutmaster has. The Scoutmaster may determine who is eligible (note, Scout spirit is a requirement) but after he has made that determination whomever the boys vote in among the eligible candidates stands. Ths Scoutmaster does NOT have veto power. Unit Election Procedure 1. The Lodge executive board shall determine the time of year that unit elections will be held. The National Order of the Arrow Committee determines what the election procedures are. Unit leaders of the council should be contacted in some manner about when unit elections will be conducted. 2. The Scoutmaster sets the date and place for a unit election and he makes his request for this election through the chapter unit elections chairman. This is either through contact by the chapter or of his own initiative. Then a unit elections team is assigned to the troop and they contact the Scoutmaster to confirm the date, time and place of the unit election. 3. Before the election, the unit elections team must secure from the Scoutmaster verification that at least 50 percent of the active troop membership is present. If 50 percent is not present, then the election cannot be held and must be rescheduled for a later date. The number of registered Scouts and the number of Scouts present is entered in the spaces on the form. 4. The Scoutmaster provides all registered and active members whom he certifies have met all of the eligibility requirements, including Scout Spirit and participation. The names and requested biographical information of these members are entered on the unit elections form. 5. The election team determines who is eligible to vote in the election. To vote, a Scout must be a registered and active member of his troop. In Boy Scouts, every registered, active member of the troop under 21 years of age at the time of the election is eligible to vote. A Boy Scout who carries a current national membership card and participates in at least some troop activities during the year is considered to be a registered, active member of his unit. For example, a youth away at college who participates in some troop activities whenever he is home, such as a campout, camporee, or an occasional troop meeting, is considered to be a registered and active member of his troop. A youth that moves away or drops out of the troop because of other interests is not counted in the determination of the registered and active membership figure. To become a member of the Order of the Arrow, a Boy Scout is chosen through the vote of the youth in his unit. This allows candidates to be elected by non-members, the hallmark of the Order. However, all Lodge members in a troop having a unit election have a vote just like the rest, but a Lodge member absolutely cannot participate in any part of running his own unit's unit election. 6. The election officials (there must always be at least two) explain the following to the Scoutmaster:  The election procedure used is the current method of election approved by the National Order of the Arrow Committee.  All eligible youth that receive votes form at least 50 percent of those who turn in ballots are elected.  If no one is elected, a second vote is held immediately and the results of the second election are final. 7. The OA unit elections team conducts the election. If the Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster is an OA member; he or she may explain to the group the purpose of the Order of the Arrow and the basis on which candidates should be chosen for election. However, it is highly preferable that the Scoutmaster leaves this to the unit elections team. After the explanation, the OA officials conduct the election after stressing the following points:  Select the candidate who, in your opinion, has set the best example of brotherhood, cheerfulness and service.  Vote only for those that you believe will continue in whole-hearted and unselfish service to your troop.  If you feel that no one is worthy, turn in a blank ballot with the understanding that this is a vote against all of the candidates.  If you are new to the troop and do not know the candidates well enough to vote wisely, do not turn in a ballot at all. This will not affect the final results.  Youth eligible for election may also vote. They may vote for themselves if they feel that they are worthy. 8. When the voting is finished, the OA unit elections team counts the number of ballots turned in and enters this number in the appropriate spot on the sheet. 9. The OA officials determine the minimum number of votes a scout must receive to be elected. This is done by doing the following: if the number is even, divide by two, if not, add one to the number of ballots collected and then divide by two. In other words, the candidate must receive a simple majority vote. The number of votes a youth must receive to be elected is then entered on the unit elections form. 10. The votes are counted in private by the unit elections team and the scoutmaster or his/her designated representative, to determine which scouts have been elected. All votes are counted equally. If at least one Scout has been elected, the results are final. However, if no one is elected, the OA officials announce this to the troop and inform them that they will be given one more opportunity to elect a candidate. Time is allowed for further explanations of the purpose of the Order of the Arrow, election procedure, and any other questions (within reason). No information about the previous vote may be released. The second election is held immediately and if the unit still elects no one, then the election is final. Then the unit elections team should remind the Scoutmaster that the election is final for this year only and will not restrict any elections in the years to come. The OA officials place a check next to the names of those, if any, who have been elected. The Scoutmaster provides information on the candidates' addresses, phone numbers, birthdates, and rank if this information has not already been obtained earlier on. After this is filled in, the Scoutmaster must sign the form. Finally, the Scoutmaster is given the gold copy of the unit elections form after it is signed by the OA officials. 11. As soon as the election is completed, the Scoutmaster may choose to announce to the entire troop the names of those who have been elected. Preferably, the Scoutmaster may wait until an Order of the Arrow Call out Ceremony, at summer camp or specially scheduled, though the ceremony is not required. 12. The unit elections team turns the completed form in to the chapter unit elections chairman, who in turn turns it into the lodge unit elections chairman at the next lodge executive board meeting, minus the chapter copy.

I understand the "freshness" argument but unless those same people throw away the old/already opened container I feel they are very self-centered. If the new bag of chips is fresher nad you don't want the old one and you feel the "waste" of the old is worth it for you, why is it NOT worth it to everyone else? In other words, if opening a new bag is okay, get rid of the stale chips/cereal etc. I think you will find that the individual who actually PAYS for the commodity, office toilet paper, breakfast cereal, bag of chips, etc. is more often than not more inclined to use what is already open.

I'm registered as a Scoutmaster and a Unit Commissioner (frowned upon by some in "officialdom") and rarely wear my beads. I AM very proud of them but when working within our Troop, I wear our troop neckerchief. I don't wear the WB beads with the troop neckerchief. I don't think it is appropriate to wear my WB neckerchief at a troop function. As a unit commissioner, I'm more prone to wear the beads but rarely to commissioners meetings. Not really sure why, just habit. At all Woodbadge functions - I go full bore. And, I'm not a "twister." Now, if I could only formulate a cool hat out of a real kudu horn I'd look very debonair! (This message has been edited by acco40)

"Due to the intelligent design" - Wow! You are a brave soul to use that term! I guess it fits into the Texas mafia in Irving but the Merlyns of the world would not approve! (Alright everybody, the above was a joke, no need to respond.)

Say hello to Eeyore, Pooh and Tigger for me. Was it that long ago?