InquisitiveScouter

6 hours ago, Armymutt said:

No one has been able to answer the question of why BSA thinks that Scouts today are less capable than their peers 100 years ago.  The organization would have died out if the same rules were in place, yet this seems of little consequence.  Why can't a patrol go camping?  Page 18 of the 9th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook says, "The goal of a patrol should be to be so well trained in camping that it can take off on its own overnights."  Why are we assuming youth have become enfeebled in the past 36 years?  

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

Guess where we are now? 😜

19 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Certified guides are NOT required in the Adirondacks.

Edited and removed...thanks!

I conflated that with info from source which says BSA camps offering certified Trek Leaders as guides are certified by the state...and required by the camp.  Not required for unit treks...sorry for the confusion.

Appalachian Trail... any section hike is good.  No group limits, lots of in-town options, etc.  Here is a good tool...   https://nps.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6298c848ba2a490588b7f6d25453e4e0

Numerous loops are available from state forests and parks trails all along the AT to make logistics easier. 

Adirondacks... multiple options.  Crew sizes are limited in areas.  Cranberry Lake 50 Trail (actually, a series of interconnected trails) is a good option. https://cranberrylake50.org/  This trail is a circuit, so parking and logistics is easier.  It's a long way from Northern VA 😜

Or there is the Northville Placid Trail, 135 miles total, so you could do a section hike if that is too long.  http://nptrail.org/

Poconos...the Pinchot Trail (interconnected system) is good...and camping in the State Forest is free (and you can camp almost anywhere).  Advertised at 23 miles, but with interconnecting forest roads and side trails, you can easily put together a much longer trek. http://elibrary.dcnr.pa.gov/GetDocument?docId=1753357&DocName=dcnr_20033753.pdf

Alleghenys...Laurel Highlands Trail http://elibrary.dcnr.pa.gov/GetDocument?docId=1743399&DocName=LARI_ParkMap.pdf , and you can do a whitewater trip in Ohiopyle on the Youghiogheny River (pronounced YOCK-a-gainy)  You could also drop in to Pittsburgh and pay @qwazsea visit

Have backpacked various lengths on all these...no big issues that proper planning wouldn't overcome.

Enjoy!

2 minutes ago, MattR said:

Everyone knows of troops that don't participate in any district or council activities, thumb their noses at all the rules and will just do as they please.

We don't participate primarily because this is where we see some of the most egregious violations.

It is bad enough at summer camp when the camp's adult leaders don't even follow the rules.  Thunderstorms is one of the biggest issues.

"Yes, I hear the thunder, but no, we aren't closing down the program areas... that storm is not going to come over us."

SMH

Here are the results of a similar incident...

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-jun-16-na-scouts16-story.html

@RememberSchiff, $25 from 1911 in today's dollars would be $727.87.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1911?amount=25

That's $17.33 per person per day.  Pretty good!  But with our advances in food production, storage, and logistics over the century, and changing it to a more "modern" list (we rarely cook with lard or butter anymore), I'd bet this cost would be much less (than $727.87) today.

Thanks for sharing!

14 hours ago, gpurlee said:

Area units in our council have been told that this is no longer an option. Apparently, there are concerns about the legal standing of these groups unless they have been registered with the Secretary of State as a not-for-profit entity. This may be a local interpretation related to specific state requirements. 

In addition, consider if a major, long -established organization is reluctant to assume the liability risk of sponsorship, would a group of parents really want to assume that liability and potentially place their home and other assets at risk in today's environment? Remember that many of the current chartered organizations are dropping units because of the perception that the BSA may not provide promised insurance coverage and they potentially could be facing hundreds of thousands of dollars of unreimbursed legal expenses.

Registering in your state in part of the 501c3 non-profit establishment process.  You are creating a corporation.

The corporation is the legal entity which can own property and a bank account.  The corporation becomes the sponsor for the unit.  You will have to file several documents (for a fee, of course) to complete the process, but it is not overly complicated.

I'll ask the legal eagles to weigh in, but I understand that the assets of the corporation can be at risk, but the assets of the "officers" of the corporation are not.  If that were the case, wouldn't any and every national BSA corporate officer be at risk to lose their fortunes and property?

You place your personal assets at risk by your own intentional acts and/or negligence.  

If you want to avoid all risks associated with Scouting, then my advice is to avoid Scouting.  You bear risk as a leader when you lead a unit, no matter which corporation is the sponsor.

Here a primer on some of the issues:

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/nonprofit-directors-personal-liability-32357.html

This is also one of the big reasons that the bankruptcy and any lawsuits against the BSA cannot touch the pension fund...

3 hours ago, yknot said:

Interesting how there always seems to be another rule you didn't know you were breaking.... 

There are quite a few...we could start a new thread on that 😜

Institution Head signs the Charter Agreement (Charter Organization Line)

COR Signs

CC Signs

Last signature is a local council rep...our DE has signed in the past.

http://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Annual-Charter-Agreement-Charter-Organizations-.pdf

There is no order of signature, so anyone can sign first and then route in turn.  Our council accepts electronic signatures and scanned copies, but you may want to check with your council to see if they want original signature document.  Start by asking your DE what they prefer.

Happy Scouting

7 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

So, your saying, the camp may have all the requirements for cub camping, it's just not officially approved by the council. Is that right?

Barry

Yes, exactly, and so we just used them "on our own."  But, I have had Cubs camping at locations that did not meet the criteria ("Drinking water from an approved source is provided at convenient locations.")  We brought our own, and deemed this to meet the criterion.

The appraisal form specifically says "This site appraisal form is to be used by the local BSA council to evaluate pack overnight family camping locations. It should be kept on file in the council office for local unit reference and is periodically reviewed for accuracy."

The three councils I dealt with had no forms "...on file in the council office for local unit reference..."  It is not a MUST for councils, it is a SHOULD, and that was probably their mindset in not having them in-house.

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/430-90218-PackOvernightForm_Fillable.pdf

25 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Seem pretty basic. What is not provided in your council?

Barry

Barry, not speaking for @yknot, but in my experience with three different councils for Cub camping, when I asked about council approval for Cub camping locations, I had to school them on the requirement for council approval.  Then, they (usually the Council Camping Committee Staff Advisor) just told me to use the criteria on the form, and if it met them, we were approved (that is, the unit provides their own appraisal, even though this is prohibited.)

6 hours ago, yknot said:

I was surprised by something else in that link. Further down it talks about Pack overnight campsite approvals. I've been out of cubs awhile but that's new to me and to most of our area units evidently because most of the popular cub scout camping sites in use around here would not meet all the criteria on the linked appraisal form. 

Another provision many councils do not support units for...

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

If you can publish a source, I'd really appreciate it.  ... I fully accept being wrong.  I'd just like a source if I'm wrong. 

Don't think you will find one.

Totally agree with anyone who sees vaguely written policies as a problem.  And yes, G2SS and other policies are vague in many areas.

You all realize the G2SS and many other BSA policies are written  vaguely intentionally, right?  It gives the BSA more legal wiggle room if things go wonky, or so I'm told by my lawyer friends.

I pointed out many of these discrepancies to council and national reps, and this messenger has been shot multiple times.

OK, so the permission slip is NOT REQUIRED by BSA, except for flying activities.  This is written right on the form itself.

"The recommended use of this form is for the consent and approval for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturers, and guests to participate in a trip, expedition, or activity. It is required for use with flying plans."

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/19-673.pdf

If your unit policies or your CO requires it (or even your council may dictate), then it is REQUIRED.

Now, having previously had a law professor as our CC, I picked his brain on lots of stuff...specifically this form.

His legal advice for our unit was to require the form, if for no other reason than as a demonstration of due diligence and duty of care.

https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/due-diligence.html

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=599

11 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Would an ASM from a near-by troop be sufficient to fulfill the adult supervision?  I'd really hope so.  Multiple times we've had a patrol from another troop join us on campouts with only one of their leaders attending.  The combination of their and our leader(s) fulfilled the adult supervision requirement.  I see zero issue with doing that in the future.

No.  The reason is that your CO must approve all adult leaders.  For example, since a CO may exclude unit leaders from serving their unit who do not meet with their own religious or sexual orientation standards, you cannot simply pull a leader from nearby troop.

"Registration Requirements

The chartered organization representative, or in their absence the executive officer of the chartered organization, must approve the registration of the unit’s adult leaders.

Registration includes:

Completion of application including criminal background check and mandatory Youth Protection training

Volunteer Screening Database check

Current Youth Protection training is required for leaders when renewing their registration or at unit charter renewal.

Adult program participants must register as adults and follow Youth Protection policies."

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a

Also, BSA policy (promulgated through their COVID FAQ and not through the G2SS, so good luck enforcing that one local and national councils)  forbids inter-unit overnight activities  without approval from council.

"Q: If my camp is cancelled, can my unit get together with other units and have our own camp?

No. Chartering organizations play an important role in the program and activities for their chartered units. Chartering organizations promote well-planned unit program for the units they charter and encourage their units to have active outdoor unit programs. Chartering organizations are not authorized to plan, promote, or deliver programs for units outside of their charter.

It is the role of councils to plan long-term or resident camps and the role of councils or districts to plan camporees (short-term camps) and other outings following National Camp Accreditation Program standards.   

Units with different chartered organizations that wish to hold activities together must have council approval. In addition, some states require such activities to be licensed."

https://www.scouting.org/coronavirus/covid-19-faq/

However, I'm of the mindset that if your CO approves (even only verbally through your COR), then you are good to go.

15 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

That is only $17 per person per weekend....sounds like a deal.

I meant overall for the entire camp...if you jack up the prices 150%, you can expect utilization to fall...

(And it's only $17 a head if you have 12...)

Our camp did the same thing several years ago...in addition to putting in electric and gas meters on each facility.  You pay a rental fee up front, and an electricity and gas usage bill at the end based on the readings (with a little extra tacked on)

Now, do you have any idea what it costs to purchase and install power and gas meters on 8 buildings?  What do you think the payback time on that cost is?  SMH

So, instead, most units will go to one of many other Scout camps within a two hour drive to get away from such nonsense, or, they primitive camp at the county park across the river at $1 per person for the weekend.

Exactly...we had two Scouts "team up" to do a local project like this at a place of worship.  One did the benches and the other did the raised stage and rostrum.  The projects were complementary and were done at separate times.  One Scout (the stage and rostrum) won the ESSP of the Year locally...

A few observations:

1) Wrong focus:  It is not about the project!!!  It's about the growth of the young person.  Use any and all of these situations for growth and learning how to deal with setbacks and competition. Teach him to look for the win-win instead of the win-lose.  See #2.

2)  What does the church want??  I guarantee you there is enough work at ANY church camp for fifteen Eagle Scout Service Projects.  Have your Scout meet with the Church Session to see what their needs are, and to discuss options and complementary work that could be done with any other projects in the planning.

3) You are right about the "flip side", and very wrong about the front end...please don't make accusations like "steal".  as @Jameson76 said, it is "First come, first served."  BTW, were you at the track meet where this was potentially discussed?  If not, you have zero idea what went down except your Scout's muddled half (or third) of the story...

2 hours ago, mrd14513 said:

It's not the most scout-like thing to steal another boy's project (one of our scout laws is trustworthy, one is courteous) -- and I think my scout has done more work on the planning aspect of the project to be prepared to present his ideas and get them approved. BUT, on the flipside, if my scout was not proactive and someone else moved forward with it before him, then perhaps that is a good life-lesson to not procrastinate in the future.

1 hour ago, 1980Scouter said:

My LC just raised camp fees at all camps 150% for weekend camp use. Trying to make up lost money. $200 for a 12 person cabin for the weekend. 

Watch the utilization rate drop like a stone...

2 hours ago, HtownScouter said:

Thanks for those who responded. No progress on my end. Can't imagine that I am the first to finish Wood Badge and ticket, and not get the beads, etc.    I will worry about all that later.  Perhaps in a couple month I will try to get a training completion certificate or whatever is used to document I completed the course and ticket.   If I ever change councils and still want beads, I can probably find some somewhere. 

You can call your local Scout store and ask to order a neckerchief, woggle, and beads...cannot do it on line, as they are "restricted" items. Items 2213, 2173, and 2175

https://www.scoutshop.org/catalog/product/view/id/663/s/wood-badge-tartan-neckerchief-2213/

https://www.scoutshop.org/wood-badge-woggle-neckerchief-slide-2173.html

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Training_Awards_WEB.pdf?_gl=1*12ys5s*_ga*MTI0MDc0MzQ4LjE2MzQ3Mjk1NDM.*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTYzNzM2ODk3My4xMS4wLjE2MzczNjg5NzMuNjA.

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Sadly the  drive for MBs is turning off my Scouts. They seeing folks with all 130+ merit badges being earned awarded in under 2 years, especially during COVID, is frustrating, angering, and discouraging them. They know the MBUs, online courses, and even a few summer camps, are giving away MB. Here are the guys earning them the right way by actually doing the requirements and not just by attending a class. I have had 3 conversations to date about this. One got so frustrated, he almost gave up on Eagle because it no longer meant anything because "everyone is getting it." 

I used @Jameson76 approach: focus on your adventure, and choices; and don't worry about what anyone else is doing.

Fixed that for you 😜

47 minutes ago, yknot said:

LNT Minimize Campfires  -- Cooking MB and extensive cooking rank requirements.  In many places this becomes tail gating in the woods. 

LNT Respect Wildlife -- Any requirement that involves collection of animals from the wild or creating artificial congregation points or food sources. For example, Fishing Derbies --  throwing a dying or dead fish back into water is not LNT and kind of a blind spot in cubs.

Jamborees? Maybe when they are in a parking lot but not at most sites I've seen them at.  

There are more -- easy enough to find if you look yourself. BSA has cleaned up some of it over the past decade -- it's not as bad as when they had requirements that were illegal in many states -- but it's still behind the times. These are just conservation components of the program. Many, many of the badges in a number of fields are out of date as well. The whole program needs an overhaul and going forward a way to update in real time.  Some of these should be partnered with expert source organizations to ensure that. 

 

OK, understood...a few clarifications, maybe?

It is "Minimize campfire impacts" not "Minimize campfires"...LNT does not discourage campfires, but promotes building in established fire rings, using dead and downed wood, letting your fire burn to complete ash, and only building it the size you need, etc.

Respect Wildlife...spot on...especially the MB's...rank requirements have been changed to say pictures are an acceptable method of "collection"...I'd recommend all ranks and MB's align to pictures, and collections only with permission of land managers (geology, forestry, etc., where a picture may not convey the best education)  For mammals, insects, birds, reptiles, and for plants, pictures should be fine.  I am especially amazed that National Camp School Ecology Section graduates still have Critter Crawls at Summer Camp where Scouts are encourage to scour the woods for wildlife to have a race or some such...

Jamborees?  Meh...as long as they concentrate the impact (at Summit), I'll remain ambivalent.  I'd advocate for a smaller size group...

Concur with your assessment that MB's and ranks need to align, not so much with LNT, but with a greater mindset of stewardship...this also includes TREAD Lightly for applicable MB's

My biggest pet peeve is councils logging their Scout camps.  Our properties could be crown jewel conservation examples, but nearly every camp I have been to over the last decade has had a large swath timbered (for cash, of course) with major impact to local wildlife and soil and water resources.  Every Scout camp timber operation I've seen would be better described as "Devastation for Currency."  In our last four summers (four different camps), we've had an environmental planner who works for the state with us, and he has really opened my eyes to the extensive damage councils are doing...

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Fun is a hard concept for adults who don't understand the scouting program. Adults like neat and orderly agendas that have measurable outcomes that tell them if they are succeeding or failing. Unfortunately first class advancement fits that mind set perfectly. Burnt pancakes is messy and means failure.

You said a mouthful!!

But, burnt pancakes aren't a failure!  You just learned a new way you shouldn't make them 😜 

19 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I get down voted for questioning someone who wants to create their own non profit scouting?

You can safely ignore down votes 😜

And I did not say we would create a non-profit scouting outfit...we would create a non-profit to support a unit for scouting...

You can see plenty of these "booster" clubs in existence already...

Like these...

https://friendsoftroop368.wildapricot.org/

https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/friends-of-troop-78,233028430/

https://www.for284.org/

And, if BSA goes Ch 7, we'll keep right on scouting...

23 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Does this mean you are in favor for a Chapter 7 liquidation of BSA?  That would give you one less youth organization to compete with for members correct?

Yes and no. 

Yes, I am in favor of a Ch 7 for BSA.  I believe we are to the point where we need a little "creative destruction."  I also believe a Scouting Phoenix will rise from the ashes...

No, the non-profit would exist to support only one local unit.  That unit could be a Scouts BSA unit if there is no Ch 7, or it could be could be a unit in some unnamed Phoenix organization.

BSA does not equal Scouting.  I mentally separate the two...one is a corporation, the other is an fun activity (when done rightly).

An analogy...if the US Tennis Association (a non-profit corporation) went Ch 7, people would still play tennis....same idea.

23 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

The goal of G2SS is not actual safety, but legal mitigation. 

23 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

If it was up to the G2SS folks the whole thing would be Family Camping, no youth allowed without the adult partner, thus moving any risk away from BSA.

Bingo!