InquisitiveScouter

15 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Seems to me that once again we really are stymied by our ridiculous legal system.  The constant fear of law suits does not contribute to reporting things that are not absolute.  

 

Every time there was an aviation (or other major) accident in the Air Force, there were two investigations...a Safety Investigation Board (SIB) and an Accident Investigation Board (AIB).  The SIB is first, and looks at every detail to determine causal factors and get the word out to operators and maintainers as fast as possible to prevent the mishap from occurring again.  SIB reports are not releasable to the public.  (Some of them are quite grisly...photos, autopsies, cockpit recordings, etc...)

Then an AIB convenes, and covers the same ground.  They only get a piece of the report from the SIB.  The AIB looks at legal issues, claims, etc.  The AIB report is released to the public.

https://www.acc.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/199117/air-force-safety-and-accident-board-investigations/

As far as I know, BSA only does an AIB-type look at mishaps, but does not release information.  Safety information is slow to come out to the "troops in the field", and is minimal, often just re-iterating existing policies...

Have a look...  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

It would help a ton in understanding his vetting, access, supervision or lack thereof, recorded dicey history, anyone ever suspect or notice odd behavior, and etc. It seems like common sense for these things to be made available to LCs, Units, COs and parents. No?

If BSA ever releases that kind of info, the devil's abode will become a lake of ice

5 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Ok. So, what about a parent who wants to register so they are able to hang out at camp, but can’t/doesn’t care to invest the additional bucks? 

$50...there is only one registration type.  That $50 is the annual registration type...

Which reminds me...that fee should be pro-rated by the month...so, if there are only six months left in the registration year, then it would be $45/2 = $22.50 plus the $5 insurance fee (not pro-rated) = $27.50 for a six month registration.

11 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I appreciate the explanation. Related, but not to imply this needs to be applied to parents, what is the annual cost and commitment to be registered? That is both as to the individual and the Unit. Thanks.

And you can easily spend more than 50 hours during the week Scouting... plus full commitment on weekends.  But really, just give the time you have, and all will be well.

I know some who eat, breathe, and sleep Scouting.  It is all they do, kind of an obsession...

13 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I appreciate the explanation. Related, but not to imply this needs to be applied to parents, what is the annual cost and commitment to be registered? That is both as to the individual and the Unit. Thanks.

Of course, that depends you how much time you spend doing it 😜

Just to register here is $45 national membership fee plus $5 insurance.  So, $50.  (This includes the BSA's background check...you don't have to pay for that.)  Then add uniforms, gear, fuel, food costs, training, time, heartache, etc., and the price tag can be about $1000 per year easily...

Now, your unit committee should be willing to help defray some of those costs.  Here, I pay for my own uniforms and food.  Required training is reimbursed by the unit.  Time and heartache are compensated for through the joy of watching boys grow into good men.

Matt, welcome!

As @SSScoutastutely points out, the best definition of "boy-led" is them making the decisions.  This will be the hardest part for you to accept.  Let them make the decisions about what to do.

Now, they cannot make informed decisions, unless they are informed.  That's where you come in...become the "expert" Scouter, and inform them of the program opportunities out there.

Recommend you focus first on going camping.  A camping trip per month, if you can.  In the lead up to the camping trip, have them divided into patrols for program planning, gear assembly, menu planning, shopping, cooking, etc.  If you don't do it by patrols, then you are not Scouting.  You are gaggling.

Your primary responsibility as their mentor is to oversee the health and safety of your Scouts.  This is your ONLY veto power as an adult leader.  Let them decide what they want to do, and only intervene if it is for health and safety.  You will never get this 100% correct, and that's OK.

There's a lot more devil in the details, but that is the gist.

And one more thing!!  Watch out for some guy named @qwazse on the forum here...  He lives in your area, and may wind up corrupting you 😜

So, I've been thinking a little more about all this, and asking myself why the National Commissioner (NC) does not seem to fill the role?  So, I read an article about the NC

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2021/07/13/scott-sorrels-bsas-national-commissioner-discusses-the-organizations-next-steps/?utm_source=scoutingwire&utm_campaign=swvolunteer7212021&utm_medium=email&utm_content=

With particular note on the last section of the article:

--------------------------------------------------------

The path ahead

The leadership is in place for the BSA to step up post-pandemic and post-bankruptcy to fulfill the needs of American families. Teamwork will be needed for the next step.

“Our volunteers have to reach out and embrace and partner with their professionals,” Sorrels says. “We’ve got to build a collaborative team like we never have before. We’re going to have fewer professionals, and that means that we as volunteers will step up even more to help move us forward.”

In the end, parents, unit leaders, council executives, national staff — we all have the same goal: to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes.

“It has to support the local councils because that’s where Scouting is delivered,” Sorrels says. “We’ve got to deliver the resources they need to be successful.”

------------------------------------------------------------

Ummm....No.  Can you see the disconnect between this message, and what many have been trying to get across here in the forum?  Can you parse out the buzzwords, talking points, and sound bites?   

Here's the message re-written:

====================================

The path ahead

The leadership is in place for the BSA to step up post-pandemic and post-bankruptcy to fulfill the needs of American families. Teamwork will be needed for the next step. Scouting has what our youth and our country need. Scouting families and volunteers across the nation know this.  They are our heart and soul of our local units.  Families and volunteers are making the program work in units through all the challenges we face.  They are the team who make the dream of Scouting happen: an adventurous game with the purpose to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes. 

“Our volunteers have to reach out and embrace and partner with their professionals,” Sorrels says. “We’ve got to build a collaborative team like we never have before. We’re going to have fewer professionals, and that means that we as volunteers will step up even more to help move us forward.”

In the end, parents, unit leaders, council executives, national staff — we all have the same goal: to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes.

“It has  All our efforts have to support the local councils units because that’s where Scouting is delivered to our young people,” Sorrels says. “We’ve got to deliver the resources they units need to be successful.”

==========================================

I'd love for you all to take a stab at crafting the message, please

6 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Guten morgen!

Look ⬆️!! See what that guy said who’s presently standing on my head. I genuinely covet your input. Many of you have had very astute observations over lo these many months and I am working to compile these ideas. I entreat thee, good countrypersons, please honor me by adding to my growing pile of theses. I am seeking 95. (Some of you get that.)

Danke. 

As you eat this menu of annelids (you know...a Diet of Worms), when digested, would you mind giving us a synopsis, please??

10 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I know back in the day, DEs were required to visit each IH and talk with them about the unit(s) they charter.  One DE I know did 3 such visits until he was reprimanded for "wasting your time visiting." 

I have personally coordinated completion of our last three charter agreements.  Much of the time, we didn't even have a DE, so the Field Director was grateful for my walking the document around and working the Charter Agreement signatures.  I'll wait until our recharter goes through at council before I work the next one. 

Yes, our council registrar has renewed unit charters without a new Charter Agreement in hand...don't know how they can do this, but they do it.

10 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Were my Troop to have to move to another Chartering Organization, I'd contact the Chartering Organization leadership, advise them of the Troop's move and ask it to sign off relinquishing ownership of all of the assets, tangible and financial.

Frankly, I doubt there would be any objection.  All Troop funds were raised from troop participants, youth and adult, for the purpose of operating the troop.  I'd like to think that most chartering organizations would recognize that and waive any interest in them.

This is exactly what we did just last fall in changing CO's.  Get it in writing, and no one can really argue otherwise...

46 minutes ago, JSL3300 said:

This may be the wrong thread, but I wanted to know if a rechartering situation that I just encountered was unique or if this is associated with the new charter relationships. 

Our unit turned in our recharter directly to the DE on Saturday. There was nothing within the recharter paperwork that required the signature of the institution head OR the chartered org rep. In the past, both of them have had to sign our recharter. When we were taking the paperwork in, we thought they would tell us we got an incomplete packet and we needed to go back and get those signatures. When we asked, they said that that form is no longer in the recharter packet. 

I don't understand what this means. From my point of view, this means there is no legal relationship between the chartered org and our unit, right? Anyone else experience this or have any deeper insight as to why this may be the case? Are other districts omitting that form from the packets as well? 

Are you with a Methodist Church??  If yes, then they are not renewing charters just yet, but extending them until March 2022 (I think)

6 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Wow @InquisitiveScouteryou have given much thought to this. Maybe your scouter hat should be a thinking cap?

Give some thought to accessibility, i.e. , local events.  Not many scouts attend Jamborees or HA bases. 

Like this??  Cool enough for you @Eagledad?? 😜 

And, yes, that is the idea...a few weeks at different summer camps each week...much more exposure that way...

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

I had an epiphany this morning. I know. Scary, coming from me. Here it is. BSA is an addict. It refuses to realize it has hit rock bottom. Therefore, it does not want to get help. It’s not ready. It thinks all will be well, once the evil bankruptcy monkey is exorcised from the backpack. It does not see nor welcome the Chapter 11 process as the reorganization and restructuring intervention opportunity it is. It will not go to rehab. It will not do a “searching and fearless moral inventory” of itself. It does not want to receive input from those who care and know what ails it. It will not admit it is “powerless over its addiction” to the past, its image, its ways, its mindset and its self-perception. It will not make a “list of those it has harmed or become willing to make amends,” much less “make direct amends wherever possible.” I could go on, but I’m going to fetch another cup of coffee and see if I can get a vision illuminating the path to my next big stock pick. Brb...

PS - I am not only referring to survivors for that list of amends. I include you guys. Nothing on the stock yet. Still roasting beans.

Bingo.

And buy TSLA

On 12/4/2021 at 9:10 AM, RememberSchiff said:

Thoughts on need, requirements, responsibilities of a Chief Scout.

OK, some initial thoughts, but many of these would have to be fleshed out, so take them with a grain of salt...

Need:

No, the Scouts don't need a Chief Scout, per se, but they do need an advocate who THOROUGHLY understands the program and remembers what the adventure is all about, and looks at things through that lens.  The Chief Scout is more like the nation's Scoutmaster.

BSA may not need a Chief Scout, but they sure do have an image, professional reputation, and PR problem, which they have not been able to solve for decades (?)  Having a Chief Scout could be a positive. 

Requirements:

1.  Celebrity?  I have a tough time with this one.  On the one hand, no, as it removes the idea of egalitarianism.  On the other, the Chief Scout would need to be a personality that Scouts would be draw to / drawn by.  Celebrity would certainly help in this regard, but it is not a requirement.  My personal belief is that the Chief Scout should be a "normal" person, not someone who is several standard deviations from the norm...

2.  The program has been around long enough...the Chief Scout should be an Eagle Scout, Quartermaster, or Summit (or have been an Explorer).  There is no substitute for experience in the program, and experience as a youth gives the Chief Scout more street cred.  Cub Scout experience a plus, but not required.  Must be a  "Scout's Scout".  That is, must be a skilled outdoorsman who craves adventure and fun.

3.  Must have a "Scoutmaster" image.  I'm not intending to fat shame anyone, but if you look around at most Scouting events, many adults do not present a healthy image.  Scouts need a good physical role model.

4. Available.  Being the Chief Scout is a "full time" volunteer job.  Chief Scout should not be an ancillary duty or "thing on the side."  There are people out there who fit this bill, but they may be scarce...

5.  Should have extensive experience at the unit level as an adult.  Scoutmaster experience required.

(Now that I cogitate on this...perhaps a team of adults...Chief Scout, Chief Explorer, Chief Venturer, Chief Sea Scout, and, sure, Chief Cub Scout (why the heck not?) with those people having experience in those programs.)

Responsibilities:

1.  Serve a four year tenure.  Only one term, then pass the torch to a new Chief Scout.

2.  Take office at the end of the National Jamboree.  Serve each year visiting Troops (including overseas!) and attending a camping trip per month around the country (as a guest is fine). 

3.  Write a running PRACTICAL column for Scout Life, based (possibly) on their camping trip per month, or other adventures.  Write it from the Scout's view and do not touch any BSA policy questions, or other "adult" concerns, at least directly.

4.  First summer of tenure, attend National Camping School in an area director discipline of your choice and work at a Summer Camp for the season in that role.  (Must not be your home council's camp.)

5.  Second summer, attend a World Jamboree to represent, and also attend a High Adventure Base as part of a crew from a regular unit.  Participate (observe) all planning and training in the lead up to the event.

6.  Third summer, serve as a unit leader at Scout Camp (could be a running provisional unit). Then, participate in a long-term, unit-level high adventure activity. 

7.  Fourth summer, attend the National Jamboree.  Say goodbye and introduce the new person at the end of the Jamboree.

8.  Give input to Scout Handbook, Fieldbook, and to MB and Award requirements.  Reduce "academics" and push adventure and practical experience.

Lots more could be added to (or deleted from 😛  ) this...

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

Are we talking about youth or adult?

Barry

An adult...

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

@InquisitiveScouter please tell us more of your prospective tenure as Chief Scout.

What input, oversight should Chief Scout have over Handbook?

 

LOL!

I had written quite a treatise to answer your request for requirements/duties/etc., but my scouter.com editor went wonky on me... I'll spend some time and write them again...

Definitely should be a contributor to the Scout Handbook!  As a Scout's Scout, the Chief Scout would bring the eye and viewpoint of someone who has been "in the trenches" with the manual, and make it more approachable and readable.   (Should also contribute to MB's and awards requirements, where Chief Scout has particular knowledge first, and then from the viewpoint of the Scout's Scout for other MB's...)  I could give you many, many examples of this...

Just now, ThenNow said:

Explain for the slow learner, please?

Right now, a Scout can complete requirements for Scout through First Class concurrently, although the ranks must be earned in order.  

That is, technically, one could finish all the requirements for First Class before finishing the requirements for Scout rank.  But, the youth will not be awarded First Class until earning Second Class.

Theoretically, a Scout could earn all these ranks at the exact same time, having saved a single Scout rank requirement as the very last one to complete.

This practice produces less than desirable results...but that is another post.

Hope this helps.

7 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Question for Scouters: If you made a list of the top 5 things National needs to do to implement transformational change, what would be on it? No need to include elements of YPT. I would like to see if there is significant concurrence among you. From the list I’ve made, there are several elements that have been repeated many times by various of you over the 27 years I’ve been lurking. Thanks.

Transformational...hmmm

1.  Want quality local leaders?  Find a way to incentivize it.  The program is sufficiently complex that, to do it well requires more time and knowledge than the average group of people can devote as volunteers.  Imagine a sort of professional Scoutmaster/teacher role...

2.  Council and National senior position term limits.  Five years as SE (etc.) and then out.  Would require looking at career progression and making some sense of this.  Maybe board limits, too, but probably a longer term.

3.  Subsidize costs of adult training and support.  (see #1)  (Learn to apply for grant money for this.)  For example, it's just idiotic that you want me to volunteer my time and expertise at a National Jamboree, and then pay you for the privilege.  No thanks...

4.  Have a Chief Scout (see separate thread...I love this idea from @RememberSchiff)  https://www.scouter.com/topic/32886-what-if-we-dropped-chief-scout-executive-and-brought-back-chief-scout/?tab=comments#comment-536720

5.  Allow youth up to 25 to earn Eagle Scout.

6.  Bring in (or back) a cumulative knowledge and skills requirement.  Stop the "one and done" for critical Scout and life skills.  Allow Boards of Review to test Scout knowledge and skills for ranks as you go up the ladder.

8 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

Now that we are almost two years into the bankruptcy process, I thought I would poll all the regular posters and get their opinions if the BSA will survive this.

All the ups and downs in this case have made for exciting reading at times. My feeling is that BSA will survive bankruptcy with little cash, very limited property and low membership only to fail a few years down the road.

There are so many factors working against them.

1) High fees

2) Loss of CO

3)Society changing.

4)Large paid staff overhead.

5)Negative media PR

6)Future abuse cases-this is a big one in my opinion as there will still be cases but hopefully few.

7)Sexual abuse law changes-in favor of victims. 

8)Abilty to find enough leaders.

9)Loss of large financial donations

10) Camp losses will enrage camp supporters who will leave the organization. 

11)Infighting within councils, this is often overlooked but there are always disgruntled leaders and volunteers with the direction scouting is taking.

12) Loss of most LC endowments. Many councils are surviving off interest and investment earnings. 

There are many more things working against the BSA and it would be a surprise if they survive long term.

 

 

Yes, you are very likely correct.

My gut says another likely scenario is that the bankruptcy fails due to negative votes of claimants, judge not ordering a cramdown, and existing lawsuits (currently on hold) proceeding (with more likely to be filed) after the Chapter 11 proceedings are abandoned.  Chapter 7 is definitely still a contender, sooner rather than later.  Two to three years maybe...

If Chapter 7, then what for the 200+ separate corporate council entities?  Corporations without a united identity...will a coalition of a few powerful band together to form a more perfect union? Yhat will be a confusing mess for the years following Ch 7.

25 minutes ago, mzzgwenf said:

I am by no means a Bible scholar and I can't quote a specific scripture to direct you to regarding what I am about to say.  However, I am reminded of the story of God saying that if one righteous person can be found in Sodom and Gamorrah (please forgive my spelling), he will not destroy that city.  My stance is that I am very, very familiar with the scouting core values.  I live my life according to them because they are good standards to live by.  Scouting is almost like a place of refuge.  Parents put their unruly children in the scout program to learn morality because those doctrines are publicly strong, rich and universal.  Specifically, the YPT is big on making reports of any kind that will compromise those indoctrinated values.  I passionately live by the rules in any enviornment that I align myself and that is one personality trait no one will take from me.  I have spent these last few days watching the issue of the Oxford school shootings.  At the same time, i was thinking about my scouting situation.  There is no way I will equate that to the horrible outcome of the school situation but like many violent events our country has undergone, I truly believe that someone was trying to tell an authority figure what they knew.  That authority ignored the report and because the offender saw that the matter was not getting its rightful credence, they went further and further with their horrible behavior and each time, we all know the outcomes.  Now I know I am all over the place with this response so I will bottom line it.  Scouting has enforceable rules that all, adults and children, must follow.  Those in power is obligated to the sacred trust placed within them to enforce those rules, regardless of level.  By ignoring the most pettiest of issues, allows more inappropriate interactions than existed before.  So, I am one of those people who holds authority's feet to the fire.  So when I leave and go somewhere else, I go in with the same expectations...operate according to the scout doctrines.  I know I won't "own" a pack.  But I will definitely be the voice that speaks up when scout rules are violated.  That way, in the event that the name of scouting become so mistrustful in the public eye and a high level scout figure is looking for a unit that strictly operates according to scout rules...my unit will be the one he/she finds.

So, Genesis 18:16 is the start of that story...and Abraham pled mercy from God to not destroy it if 50/45/40/30/20/10 righteous in the city could be found.  God continually relented and agreed if ten could be found, he would not destroy it.  Abraham did not plead lower than that.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

So, I'm having a little trouble with the analogy to your situation.  Do you see yourself as Abraham, pleading with God on behalf of the city?  Or do you see yourself as one of the ten (or the one), on whose account the city will be saved?  

Not to put too fine a point on it...be careful, because you yourself violate the rules from time to time.  Guaranteed.  There are such a massive amount of rules, policies and prohibitions in Scouting, that is is impossible to completely adhere to all of them in all situations.  I know and adhere to the rules as best I can.  Do I sometimes respond to a Scout's email without including another adult?  Yes, from time to time, it happens, as I get possibly a hundred a month.  Not intentionally...  Have there been times when I was the only adult left at the meeting waiting for parents to pick up?  Yes, but my son has always been there for no one-on-one.  Still, a technical violation of two-deep.  I hope you get the picture...

This is where grace, mercy, and forgiveness come in.  Do not be a martinet.  This might be why things don't work out well (from your story)...  People make mistakes, or find themselves in situations where they didn't intend to be.  Learn to admonish and correct with love...  and be aware of your own shortcomings.

Looking for a Biblical idea to fit your bill?  Maybe Ezekiel 22:30, "“I looked for someone among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found no one. 31 So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

So much there to unpack...but I'll simply ask you to build up the wall and stand in the gap.

Ahoalton

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Yes, but can you show the scouts how to gut a yak and sleep inside the carcass for an emergency shelter? Face it, that would make scouts cool.

Why, yes, I could do that.  Would prefer to do it with a musk ox, though, as we have those in Alaska...

And at least my wife thinks I'm handsome...

I'd do it.  And I have the pedigree, the time, and a healthy dose of skepticism when dealing with the professional side 😜

Cover my expenses for travel, meals, accommodations, uniforms, etc. to fulfill the role, and I'm in...

11 hours ago, MattR said:

Unless you have a solid bar for the "ropes" of the swing it's impossible to do a loop on a swingset. But, I suppose not many students took physics back in your day, either.

5 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Well, yeah,   KE still equals 1/2MV squared.

Pushing the swing (empty), it was possible to  wrap the chain supports around the bar.  With a kid in the seat, pumping, never saw that, but that doesn't mean we didn't try !

https://aplusphysics.com/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/929-can-you-really-swing-over-the-bar/

Not if you are shot out of a cannon!!  Enough initial velocity, and you could wrap around that bar no problem...of course, the force required to get to that velocity would probably injure the rider...

Now, to help that kid in the video, he had the counterweight on top...no such thing on the chain swing...

21 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Yup.

Yikes!  At $500K per (or five years in the hoosegow, pokey, slammer, etc.) that could potentially bump up the victim fund.  But, I believe, since this is a federal court, monies from fines imposed only go to the US Treasury, and, so, only Congress could direct the disposition of those penalties to fund the fund.  Good luck with that!  Literally, an Act of Congress.