InquisitiveScouter

- We only mandate that they camp by patrols, and select their own buddies.  (Many summer camps do not set up by patrol sites.) If there is an "odd-man out", that Scout may tent with another "odd-man out", if the two-year rule does not prohibit.  There are some Scouts who prefer to tent alone.  If there are conflicts, the Patrol Leader (PL) works it out.  If PL cannot resolve, take it to Senior PL.  When I am the SM or acting SM in camp, I only ask that they tell me how they resolved  any issues, for the sole purpose of making sure that a Scout is not being ostracized or bullied in some way.  Switching mid-week can work to great effect in these cases.

- Adults should be as far away from the Scouts as practical.  Usually in the farthest Patrol Site, and all together.  Make sure the Scouts know where the SM tent is.  I bring chem lights for PL's, SPL, and myself, and we hang them outside our tents each night, so they can find us easily.  Everything looks different in the dark

- Adults (and especially parents) must stay out of Scouts' tents, except for a health and safety reasons, and an inspection by the SPL w/SM for daily campsite inspection competition.  This is the case where we have the most difficulty with new parents who accompany us to camp.  Best advice for them, "If you don't think your Scout can make it through a week of summer camp without you, please seek out another long-term camping experience."  Most of the time, the issue is with the parents, not with the Scout.  That is, the parent cannot make through a week without the Scout

- A pre-camp visit with the SPL is awesome, if you can swing it.  Nothing beats eyes on target on your future campsite to help with planning.  This is, of course, often impractical.

- Finally, here is an uncomfortable topic off of OP...pooping.  After many years of Summer Camp, I have discovered that one of the key contributors to "homesickness" is anxiety about going to the bathroom.  So, we call it "Number Two Tuesday."  Camp starts on Sunday, so if a Scout has not gone #2 by the end of Tuesday, you WILL see problems.  On Tuesday morning before breakfast, I discretely take each Scout (and Adult!!!) aside and ask them if the have gone #2 by now.  I have a roster to help me keep track (we have 41 going to camp this year.)  If they have not, help them figure out why.  If they just haven't felt the need, the number one reason is dehydration.  Even if they say they are well hydrated (have been going #1 frequently, and the color is light) then I still have them drink a lot of water.  If by midday they haven't gone, I give them some coffee (with prior parents' permission.)   If that doesn't work within about an hour, it's an OTC laxative or a trip to the health lodge, depending on your camp's rules on giving OTC meds.   Hydration and/or coffee have always done the trick.  Occasionally, it's an anxiety issue with rustic facilities  (never gone in an outhouse before) or privacy.  So most camps have a clean flush toilet somewhere...have them go there.  You will be astounded by the number of kids who think they can hold it for the whole week.  Seriously...

On 6/18/2021 at 10:33 AM, Eagle1993 said:

Cyberchip requires the following:

1. Discuss with your unit leader the acceptable standards and practices for using allowed electronic devices, such as phones and games, at your meetings and other Scouting events.

 

So, it is a unit decision.  There is nothing in the Scout Handbook or Troop Leader handbook that I have ever seen that bans cell phones.  

Our unit allows cell phones for photos (and have for years).  We also added the option to use phones for scouting applications (such as looking up merit badge books, info, etc.) and weather reports.  It is a tool like a knife, rope, etc.  Each unit can have their own policy.

I have this discussion with Scouts when they are earning their Cyber Chip.  Here is the gist:

If what you are doing with your device would violate any part of the Scout Oath or Law, don't it.  Now, Johnny, let's talk about some examples...

1.  The SPL says bed time is 10 pm.  I do a walk-around at 10:15 and see the blue glow of your device through your tent.  What part of the Scout Oath or Law applies?

2.  Your patrol mate is giving a talk on how to pack a backpack, and you are playing a game or watching a video on your phone.  What part of the Scout Oath or Law applies?

3.  You are texting another person and use foul language or call them a name. What part of the Scout Oath or Law applies?

Please, for the love of God, do not come up with some laundry list of do's and don'ts with devices.  You can measure EVERYTHING against the yardstick of the Scout Oath and Law.

This is how we build character.

This is the way.

P.S.  First incident is behavior correction/warning.  Next is confiscation until end of event or outing, and a discussion with parents.  Next is you don't get to come on the next outing, and we look at circumstances to determine if this affects your advancement.  (Only reached this point once, with full support of Troop committee and understanding of Scout's parents.)  Now the culture is in place...

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Just checked the G2SS ... Register as a MBC and complete training.  The G2SS says anyone camping more than 72 hours must be registered as a leader.  ... It doesn't say "in your unit".  Just as a leader.   

If you register as a MBC and take the YPT training, then show your BSA registration and BSA training certificates to the troop.  As a CC, I'd accept that as fulfilling the requirement to be registered.  I'd let you camp with the troop.  The question is whether the church requires a Virtus training for camping with troop too.  Or just being a key leader.  

There must be other non-Catholic members in the exact same boat.

Be careful with this.  You must consult with your local council for their interpretation.  Our council interprets this as a registered leader with that unit, having been approved by the CO/COR.

I made this same inquiry to National for interpretation and was skewered, btw...

Tread with care...

52 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

When this is all over, we can get back to discussing red shoulder loops vs green

Vs none!...always need a third option.😎😎😎

43 minutes ago, David CO said:

completely outside their control.

In all of my years as a youth in OA, we did pretty much what we wanted.  In hindsight, it seemed like the inmates running the asylum.

When our local lodge conducted our last two elections, the youths representing the lodge gushed on and on about how cool it is that everyone brings computers and play stations so they can game all night at lodge fellowships. Parents certainly don't want to hear, nor necessarily have their Scouts participating in that.

1 minute ago, FireStone said:

Not a lot of organic opportunities in the outdoors to earn Citizenship badges and rank reqs, Family Life, Personal Management, service projects, etc.

Granted, but those aren't requirements up to First Class...  service projects, yes, and all units should be providing program opportunity for those.

12 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

This is why my feelings are still mixed on Summer Camp First Year Programs. It is very unnatural vs. a year of campouts and most items will be done. There might be some minor requirements to cover, but for the most part, nearly all would be covered in a good program. 

I have recommended that we never do a "First Year Program" at Scout Camp again...based on my last five years of observations at different summer camps in our region.  Here are some things I have noted, in general...

- Most "instructors" for the programs were first year staffers without the requisite skills to teach.  I observed many of them demonstrating incorrect knots and lashings, incorrect safety precautions for Totin Chip (or outright skipping items like ax use and care, yet still "signing it off"), poor map and navigation skills, inability to identify local plants/trees (ID'ing animals is usually less of a problem, but still concerning, as many do not include insects/arachnids/mollusks/etc. in their scope), inadequate fire building, poor first aid skills, inadequate cooking/cleaning information, etc., etc. etc.  We have had to spend a good deal of time "correcting" learning wrong information. "What does the Scout Handbook say??" 

- Many programs simply escort the Scouts around to various program areas to earn MBs anyway, to fill the time.  Swimming, First Aid, Nature, a handicraft badge, etc.  They can do that themselves, thanks

- Poor/inaccurate recording of attendance and requirements accomplished.  Usually giving the Scout credit for items when they weren't even in class.

-  Dividing up the Scouts to form ad hoc patrols, rather than maintaining the patrol integrity provided by the unit.  If I give you 8 Scouts in the first year program, why don't you just keep them together in the patrol already formed with an identity, emblem, yell, etc.???  Answer: because this is part of our program schedule.  If they already have those things done, we don't have anything else for them to do during that block if instruction. Me:  😈 (I think this also contributes somewhat to homesickness issues, as they are not with the buddies they came to camp with.)

- Feedback from 95% of the participants is negative...they did not have fun in those programs

- The trend to be always "busy doing something"  Scouts need some time to go for hike, read a book, sit in a hammock, skip rocks in the creek, fish, etc...  When they do the MB program, we encourage them to take an hour or two off every day to do "nothing".  Every bit of research I have read says youth need unstructured time for development.

Our PLC, all of whom were in those programs, now encourage our new Scouts to not go into those programs.  Our adult leaders, many of them parents of Scouts who went through those programs, discourage parents from steering their new Scout to those programs also.

It is rare that a Scout finishes First Class in a year, because they have to take the initiative on their own advancement, particularly with the fitness activity tracking pieces.  Most 11 year olds don't care about some of those things.  We provide OPPORTUNITY to advance to First Class.  We do not spoon feed them, nor create paper Scouts.

Oooohhh, just looked at CalTopo...very nice.  I might be switching

Google Earth with USGS topo data overlay. 

https://www.earthpoint.us/topomap.aspx

You can toggle back and forth and get an exact satellite image of the area as well...plotting waypoints and treks is easy...gives you exact distances and elevation profiles on tracks and trails plotted.

In Google Earth, you can also go back in time on the satellite shots for some excellent older satellite photos, shot at various times through the year, to make out features better.

I also use a UTM grid overlay for those badges needing UTM discussions.

https://www.earthpoint.us/Grids.aspx

Free except for the cost of printing.

Map data is a bit dated, but I have used this for years with great results.

All lines are True or Grid North, so Scouts have to know the local variation (declination).

https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/declination.shtml

Coupled with a locally produced Forest Service, NPS, State Park (etc.) trail map, and you have a very thrifty navigation solution for Scouts.

Enjoy!

Wish you the best @carebear3895 !!! Thanks for your insights in the forum...it has, many times, been beneficial to get a view from the other side of the fence

Will you continue in a volunteer capacity somewhere?

7 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

I will contend that it can be extremely beneficial to have venture crews set up so that the 18 thru 20 crowd can continue to serve and lead.

Agreed that that age range should have Venturing available, but I think my example may not have been clear.  The Crews I am talking about are really shadow organizations.  They exist solely to provide a registration home for older members of the OA.  Members of the Crew are OA members who need a unit to call home, but they do no actual Venturing program stuff other than support OA events. 

So, the unit exists on paper just to support the Order of the Arrow.  IMO, this is a reversal of the intended order of things.  The OA exists to support unit program (partially) through recognizing honor Scouts and promoting camping.  In the case here, the Scouts (and Scouters) must first be OA members before they can join the crew.  There is no unit program other than OA stuff.  I believe Dr. Goodman would not approve.

We have two ASMs and several Unit Scouter Reserves, or Unit College Scouter Reserves (all 18-20) who maintain memberships in the Troop and lend a great deal of time to the local Lodge.  They are not full-time Troop-focused, but help out the Troop when able.

50 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

the special forces of scouting

Love this thought!  May I please use it freely without crediting you??😜😜😜

On 6/11/2021 at 3:12 AM, MGinLA said:

Part of the reason is that in their scouting experience, they have seen the OA as one of two things:  (1) free labor at Camporees; and (2) dancers in Indian costumes.   They have no interest in being either one, and are frankly uncomfortable with the racial overtones of the latter.

This^^^^^ and the rest...great post.  Would give it more Upvotes, if I could.

Like units, each lodge has it's own personality and culture...

Those with the least draw for that council's Scouts are what we term a "self-licking ice cream cone" (SLICC)  Some common themes among these are:

- The Lodge focusing more on being a "Native American Heritage Society", where dance teams, drum teams, pow-wows, and regalia become more important than the "thing of the spirit"  

- Councils using the OA as a set up and take down of their Summer Camp to avoid paying staff extra time to do this...to the point of telling the lodge that Ordeals must be scheduled as bookends to Summer Camp to accomplish this.

- Lodges putting out the message to unit leaders that they should consider what a Scout's contribution to the lodge will be when considering eligibility for OA election.  (Yes, this happens.)  An Arrowman's first duty is to his unit.  https://oa-bsa.org/article/thoughts-arrowmans-primary-duty

- Lodges which do no unit service, other than conduct elections.  You can generate a whole laundry list of possibilities for this, starting with producing the WTGCG mentioned elsewhere.  I know that some lodges even create Venturing Crews which are set up as units solely for the purpose of giving Arrowmen a place to register in order to meet the the "must be registered member" requirement. (anathema!)

- Lodges which do no community service events, but serve only themselves (or Scouting) through Fellowships, Ordeals, Camp Work Days, Conclaves, etc.

Those with the most draw do the opposite

45 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Done correctly, commissioner is both fun and rewarding. But, that kind of program requires good leadership. District Commissioner was my dream job after I retired from Scoutmaster, but council and district burned me out the next few years and I retired completely from scouting. They came to my door and offered me the job 3 years later, but I developed to many new habits with the family to jump back into the program. My loss.

Barry

Barry, thank you for all you did for scouting...

Wanna do a 50-miler with us on the Delaware River in August?🤪🤪🤪

14 hours ago, SSScout said:

Self tapping screws hold it together now. 

Yeah, I have one that was made with aluminum rivets...those didn't last long   The self-tappers did the trick.

3 minutes ago, MattR said:

I'd sign up to be one if I saw a way to make it work. It's an impossible position as described. As implemented it's a group of people that answer simple questions about council policy. My troop's commissioner goes to most of our committee meetings but is solely there to answer questions about policy. If there's a bigger purpose they're not interested.

Comparing that reality to the discussions here about commissioners being an important way to help units develop - I see a gap.

 

The other side of the coin is that unit leaders need to be open to the guidance Commissioners give.  Many unit leaders I know think that when a district or council person (vol or pro) shows up at their events, it only means trouble.

Leaders must be continually developed.  Youth and adult.  I do not get the sense that this mindset exists in our council.

Yeah, this one is a head scratcher...GTSS forbids, but I know a recent version of the Fire Safety Merit Badge pamphlet discussed using lighter fluid for charcoal, so that is (or was) a very mixed message.    I dunno if that has been updated to reflect GTSS prohibitions....anyone have current copy of Fire Safety MB and can check it out??

15 hours ago, MattR said:

If there's one common thread to toxicity in my district it's the council exec. 

Ditto.

Here, our district has two major challenges.  

1.  No Commissioner Corps to speak of...  (There is no one to help units know what "right" looks like.)

2. The District schedules too many events, if you can believe it...  two camporees per year (in addition to a council-wide event), many (like six or so) Cub events that they ask Troops to support, Klondike, a skills competition, a fishing derby, rocket launch, a merit badge event, etc.  And you are castigated if you don't attend/support the events.  It is like the district is planning a whole Troop program year so the Troops don't have to.  When I am asked why we weren't at such and such an event, I simply say, "Because the PLC decided they wanted to do something else."  And, unfortunately, that answer is not acceptable to most in our council.  smh

This one is a burr under my saddle... one of the stated purposes of the Order is to 

"Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp."

In too many cases, this has devolved into putting up tents at an Ordeal weekend prior to summer camp, and not much else...

Good to see some lodges still produce the WTGCG

50 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I'm talking about the bigger picture of the mission of developing character. Growth is based on the experience of making decisions, not watching role models. Role models are reinforcement of what is learned from the Patrol Method experience.

Barry

Hand in hand with Association with Adults goes Personal Growth.  The Aims are not discrete functions, they are a unified whole.  Again, you know that.

If we just pushed them out the door without the Adult Association (as many are doing outside of Scouting), they will rarely develop desirable character...  Lord of the Flies?

25 minutes ago, qwazse said:

The overhead in terms of adult-hours required per youth served has sky-rocketed.

This is one of the things that is killing Scouting.

22 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

And who determines a persons BAD character?

You have jumped to the opposite end of the spectrum.  Fine.  The answer in all cases is the Chartering Organization.  You know that.

27 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

How can a program build character.

The program doesn't.  People build character in themselves and in other people.  We adults are supposed to be setting the example (Association with Adults, anyone?)  Unfortunately, a great many Scouters I have come across are not "people of good character".  Blame the Co's on this one...most often, the adult leaders are just the ones who volunteer to do it, without regard as to whether that person is a "positive role model"  "Scouts learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves."

"I think yesterdays overburdened Cub program steels the illusion of fun from the adult perspective and they loose any enthusiasm of it for their kids."

You got that right!!

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

And from what I gather when volunteers have offered to help with the IT side/development, they've been told to go away.

Things that make you go ..."Hmmmm"

1 minute ago, fred8033 said:

Of everything happening recently with BSA, ScoutBook is my big fear.  I've grown accustomed to it.  I was not in favor initially, but I've gotten used to it.  We only use it for roster mgmt and advancement  / recognition.  But within that context, it does work.  

I really fear national becoming unable to support it.  Councils, units and individual scouts have grown very dependent on it.   That's a large user base for such a small IT organization such as BSA must have.  

It is our primary platform for event scheduling, communication, advancement tracking, and financial transactions (outings, dues, summer camp payments, etc.)

Whatever comes next must provide similar or enhanced capabilities, along with a seamless transition.