InquisitiveScouter

53 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Cannabis dependence is rising rapidly with the increasing availability. It’s a whole lot easier to conceal as well.

We were at our camp for a district event, and one of our Scouts found a bag of marijuana on the ground in a high traffic area.  We gave it to the Ranger and reported it to the SE.  I asked the SE if he wanted me to contact authorities.  He said, "No, they would handle it."  Ranger had friends in LE, and he said he would give it to them for destruction.  Ranger also said they would not have police respond, as nothing would result from an investigation, and the local LE was overburdened anyway.  Sounded fishy to me, so I asked my lawyer.  He said, as long as I did not know it was anyone in our unit, I had no positive duty to report.  That would be up to property owners/event supervisors/hosts (i.e., council).

When we returned home, I wrote an email to all parents letting them know about the issue, and let them know they could contact me or the SE with questions.  (If they contacted me, then I would tell what happened again, and refer them to SE.)

Ranger indicated they find makeshift paraphernalia at summer camp quite often.  I have run across same at other camps while exploring hiking paths.  Sad...

But that is a "high" note...pun intended 😜

4 hours ago, yknot said:

OK. Well I'd say that's a completely wrong belief on multiple levels. Adults who are dependent on alcohol should absolutely be screened out. The reasons are so obvious I don't think it's worth articulating them. 

 

I'm not a clinician, but I see there is a difference between abuse and dependence.

https://www.hazeldenbettyford.org/articles/what-is-the-difference-between-alcohol-abuse-and-dependence

https://www.sutterhealth.org/ask-an-expert/answers/alcohol-abuse-vs-alcohol-dependence

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK44358/

The BSA Adult Application screens for "abuse" not "dependence".  Question 6b on the right side.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-501.pdf

Sounds like you might advocate to change the verbiage from "abuse" to "dependence", but I think, unless you are a clinician who deals with this distinction, you might be using the wrong terms and have a misunderstanding.

If you are a health care provider who deals with this, then please, enlighten us further...

The VIPER is coming!!!

1 hour ago, Double Eagle said:

This is going to touch a nerve (pun intended), are we still cutting corners from Totin Chips?  As a longtime scouter from the 70s until now, I think that practice really doesn't make sense anymore.  We don't burn corners from Fireman chit that I know of.  I think cutting corners is the only thing I've seen in Scouting where this type of result happens from being "unsafe".  Just some posted comments mention how common injuries are.  I think we need an azimuth check whether this is still a necessary practice.

Confusing like this example:  At one camp, scouts were not allowed fixed blade knives.  This intent was for pocket type knives without any specifics given.  But, every chef kit had a paring knife and 8" carving knife.  Doesn't really make sense to me.  Also, there was no size limit on the folding knives.  We won't even mention how machetes in Panama were carried by about every scout.  Crazy standards/rules sometimes.

I do not cut corners.  If you violate the rules, there is stern correction and a warning.  Second offense, you lose your knife and access to tools for the duration of the camping trip.  Third offense is a loss of Totin Rights until you can demonstrate verbal knowledge of safety practices and rules, and demonstrate practical safe use handling and care again, of all tools (basically, repeating requirements for Totin Chip.)

We've had multiple first offenses (mostly from younger Scouts who forget the rules or haven't handled the tools much), rare second offenses, and no third offenses in all my days.  Corrective action, education, and discipline to restore into the fold....it works, and young people respond to it.  Never any public displays of this.  Always done kindly and discretely...and yet, word somehow goes through the Troop like wildfire 😜

Telephone, telegraph, tell-a-Scout...

Just now, 1980Scouter said:

I took my eagle certificate off the wall when this bankruptcy started and all the shady things BSA has done over the years to hide issues came out.

No longer proud to display it. Then during bankruptcy my LC sold a camp I put a lot of effort in to and loved very much. 

I had a friend's of scouting framed picture on the wall, to the trash it went. I still have good memories of scouting as a scout and leader but do not feel support for National or LC.

Remember, these were people who had these attitudes, made these decisions, and took these actions.  They are hidden from us, mostly, and most will never face consequences from us for what they did.  And people like them populate every institution we create: families, churches, schools, governments...

From one Eagle Scout to another, please display your certificate and medal proudly.  They are a mark of your achievement and dedication to an ideal, and who you should strive to be.

If it helps, make a color copy of it and mark through "Boy Scouts of America" as a personal act of defiance and judgment.  Display that!  Illegitimi non carborundum!

45 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

If sentient, what would my Eagle certificate make of all this?

It would say, "Well, done! Strive to follow the truth you have learned in all your days, and do what you know in your heart to be right.  You will carry a burden of pain until you are done with this life.  If you seek to bear it alone, it will grow.  Find those who lift you up, and help you along your way.  You must do this daily.  Have faith that, in the life to come, perfect Justice will be done on those who have harmed you."

4 minutes ago, qwazse said:

but if our society weren’t so punitive to everyone besides the few young adults who behave badly they might be manageable.

Loved your post, but don't quite get what you mean with this.  Elaborate, please?

8 hours ago, yknot said:

Frankly, I don't think many units try very hard at all to involve women in their outdoor programing. 

We are not your average unit.  We try very hard to have women in the program.  After about five years of cultivating this culture, we have only two moms who camp with us (ever).  One is great in the outdoors and really gets the program...when Scouts run to her with problems, she asks the most important question an adult can …"Did you ask your patrol leader?"  The other is not so great in the outdoors.  After about three days at Summer Camp, she left.  Hot meals prepared for you, daily hot showers available, and flush toilets (yes, even in the campsite), were not enough.  She really did not like sleeping in a wall tent in the woods.  Even though she had a fully enclosing bug net, the mosquitos, spiders, snakes, chipmunks, field mice, skunks and raccoons were too much.  Although we never had an encounter with a bear, she was very anxious about it.  She thought we were crazy to want to be out there with all that.  She felt really bad about feeling really bad.  Since we had enough adult coverage, we gave her the option to return.  She was very relieved.  She still does some weekend trips, but will often only be there for one night.

I personally have asked many moms to come with us.  Most just laugh it off.  "That's not for me."  When I delve deeper, in general, those who refuse usually have one of two reasons: 1) there are other younger siblings at home to take care of, or 2) the austerity of camping is daunting to them...they want flush toilets, hot showers, and four walls and a roof over their head.

It took years of having my wife camp with me and the kids before she felt comfortable going with our daughter and her Venturing crew.  But she got there...

Here's an enlightening article...

https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/what-causes-parcopresis-shy-bowel-syndrome

37 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Purrfect!  Where can I get one?

Officially licensed, even 😜

https://tradingpost.classb.com/official-licensed-cat-herder-patrol-patch/

24 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Being a leader with Cub Scouts is good experience...  Makes one an excellent cat herder.

Whoopie Ti Yi Yo, Git Along, Little Kitties!

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I'm saying people leave because they are burnt out.  A trigger is needed.  I doubt G2SS is the trigger.  It might receive a share of blame, but I doubt it's a trigger.

Understood...and I wrestle with this daily.  My wife wishes I would just leave Scouting and start beekeeping and gardening...and start a cat rescue, too (she's a cat-lady‐in-the-making).  Things haven't gotten so bad that I'm ready to go so far as the cat rescue thing yet.  

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I don't buy it.  Scouter's regularily burn out and blame it on other things.  Their personal belief in scouting chains them to the program.  It's almost like they are waiting for a reason to step away.  The first time I saw it in scouting was when OA chapters merged.  Expert and extremely committed scouters couldn't be flexible to work together and each wanted to be the advisor.  So one walked.  ... Reality is the person was burnt out by a big commitment and just needed a trigger to leave.  I'm sure in many ways it was an absolutely relief and also a badge of victimhood to wear and a story to repeat.  

Times change.  We can't expect the program and the rules from long ago.  ... G2SS is not perfect.  Many of the rules are hard to apply in nuanced sitautions.  BUT, the key is learning how to apply and asking for advice and guidance.  Also, providing feedback to get rules fixed.  

My posts were based on two very specific comments.  #1  Infering we can play a G2SS game. Now, I'm a scouter.  Now, I'm not. Then a few hours later, I'm a scouter again.  #2  Similar, the comment that G2SS has rules that you don't really need to follow and that it's an ethical decision each scouter needs to make.  ... We should not teach those examples.

 

OK, I unquit...see how easy that is?

Merry Christmas!

And WOW, way to kick them while they are down, brother...

I regularly talk with Scouters who are carrying loads and loads of straw.  Often, since they have dedicated much of their lives to Scouting in one geographical area, they are attached to the local program in meaningful and sentimental ways.  And often, they have witnessed decades of poor decision making and mismanagement which has affected them on a personal level.  It's not like they are "waiting for a reason to step away."  It's just that, finally, one day, there is the straw that breaks the camel's back... But you intimate in your comment that this is all on them...that somehow they are not malleable enough.  No.

To channel Jefferson, "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object (protecting BSA rather than Scouts) evinces a design to reduce them Scouters and the program under absolute Despotism Idiocy, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government Idiocy, and to provide new Guards for their future security Scouting.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Scouters Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain Boy Scouts of America is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States to protect the BSA instead of nurturing the Scouts under their wing."

Yeah, I know, Jefferson is rolling in his grave this Christmas morning.🎅

----------------

I have no problem with reaching the point where I am...that my membership in the BSA is under my terms, no longer theirs.  BSA has lost any place of authority, moral or otherwise, and I am under no obligation to listen or follow dictates that do not focus on safeguarding and teaching Scouts.

When the ludicrous extension of YPT to non-Scouting venues was first inserted surreptitiously into the G2SS FAQ, I had discussions with my DE and SE, that this was foolishness, and simply an unenforceable move to CYA.  Further, I told them flat out, if this provision was ever written in, that I would not follow it simply on principle, and, if they wished, they could terminate my membership without remorse.  They both agreed.  That is where we are.

This rule does nothing to protect young people.  Do you honestly think that anyone with designs to engage in sexual activity with a minor is going to obey YPT rules anyway?  This rule simply exists so that BSA can point to it in some way and say "See, we had a rule; They broke it, so we aren't liable."  I seriously doubt, as others do, that BSA bears any culpability in that situation.

I do pick and choose, if you will, what rules I apply and the situations I apply them in.  I use my own judgement, trusting that it is superior to the clowns in Irving.  When a rule exists clearly to protect Scouts, I follow it.  When a rule clearly exists to protect BSA, I am selective.  It is not in my purview to protect the BSA.

Now, I would never publicly announce such, nor put it in writing with my name attached, because, as my SE and I understand, it would tie his hands and he would be forced to evict me, and the Scouting program would lose a valuable member the team.  I also do not pontificate on these things with Scouts.  They are here to focus on other things.

As @SiouxRanger so eloquently put it...

11 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

reality is complex and fuzzy..

Want to protect kids from predators?  Teach them about predators and how to avoid and fight them.  Then, when we, collectively, deal with a predator, do it harshly.  

I, for one, would advocate that child molestation should be a capital offense.  Swift and final punishment, and let the Good Lord impose His final justice. Matthew 18:6 is a good model.  "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."  Drive them out to the middle of the ocean, give them the stone necklace, and push them overboard...and broadcast it.  I see this as neither cruel nor unusual.  Remove the evil from among you.

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I've dealt with similar, but chosen to follow G2SS as best I can.  

To be really, really honest ... and please forgive my response, but it is my view.   I absolutely cringe hearing that comment.  It is very dangerous and shows contempt for the Scout Law and contempt for the program that you've put your signature saying you will follow.  Even tongue in cheek, it is absolutely NOT something we should say or do.  It is absolutely a violation of G2SS.  It is a bad example to set for our youth.

I am really sad to hear a scout leader saying those words.  

You're right.  I quit.  Goodbye.

We have a 'Trail to Eagle' board with all the Scouts names on it.  When they advance in rank, we chant "Change the Board" while they move their name up.

Maybe we should change it to 'Trail to First Class.'  And let the rest be icing on the cake 😜 

14 hours ago, qwazse said:

It’s all the rage these days https://www.scouting.org/program-updates/scouts-bsa-youth-council-announcement/

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2021/10/28/your-scout-can-help-shape-the-future-of-scouts-bsa-within-new-youth-council/

SO, do you think the BSA will take any suggestions from these young people?

I don't.

2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

over-reaching rules

^^^^^This

From G2SS:  "Parents and youth are strongly encouraged to use these safeguards outside the Scouting program. Registered leaders must follow these guidelines with all Scouting youth outside of Scouting activities."

What I do outside of Scouting is none of BSA's business.  If my son wishes to have a friend over (with his parents' consent), and my wife is not at home for an hour or so because she is running to the grocery store, we'll be just fine, BSA, thanks... 

And can you imagine this conversation?

"Dad, is it OK if Jimmy comes over after school? We would like to work on our science project together, and then do some gaming."

"Sure son, if his parents say it is OK.  Let me text his Dad real quick to verify...  OK, his Dad says he will pick him up after work.  Will Jimmy be staying for dinner?"

"Nope, he is going out with his parents, and needs to be home by 6."

"OK, fine.  I'll be here working in the yard.  Mom won't be home from work until about 5:30.  Wait...didn't Jimmy join Troop XXX last month?"

"Yeah, why?"

"Sorry, you'll have to cancel.  BSA says I cannot allow that, as we will not have two adults here."

Actually, our humorous solution is that my son and I agree to quit BSA temporarily until the activity is done.  When we are done, we mentally reactivate our membership.  But, we are always Scouts.

This is the kind of stuff from BSA that the average person just shakes their head at...and it kills confidence in the organization, and generates results like the OP.

Oh, and where is the exception for family members?  We have a Scout who just turned 18.  He is a senior in High School.  His brother is a sophomore.  Are you telling me the older brother (now a registered ASM) cannot be at home with his younger brother after school while his parents are at work?  If you interpret the text according to the letter, the answer is, ridiculously, no.

12 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

The bigger question would be why was he allowed into the BSA to start with?

He met the one criteria most councils, districts, CO's, and units feel forced into:  he had a pulse.

36 minutes ago, skeptic said:

the total destruction of the largely great program. 

I do wish I could get across to all...the loss of the BSA does not mean the loss of Scouting (the program).  Please separate the two "entities" in your thinking.

Scouting was around before the BSA appeared, and we can continue it just fine if the BSA disappears.

Is your loyalty to Scouting, the movement?  Or to BSA, the corporation?  (Or neither, or both 😜 ??)

1 hour ago, MattR said:

My guess is that they assume the parent is more reliable at keeping up the membership? I asked my son if he wanted any of the email I get for him and he said no. He's busy and I can't blame him.

I think you may have missed the point...

They already ask for the Scout's email in another section...

In the section where they want to have info from you (Your Information), as the purchaser of a Gift Membership, it would only go through when entering the Scout parent's email instead of your email.

And I go NO email confirmation of the purchase.

On 12/13/2021 at 4:21 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Anyone having issues purchasing a new membership??

"Error

Whoops!It appears important information is missing from your Eagle Scout profile.Please contact your Eagle Scout council updating the following information."

 

All data is correct...and it does not tell me which data is triggering the error message....

OK, so, this is new...I figured out that, if you are purchasing a Gift Membership for someone, you must put in the parent email address in on the section where is says "Your Information"  Never had to do that before.

3 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Just  trying to figure out how to split kindling  with loppers...

Very carefully 😜

21 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I don't believe it ever went away, it has just been changed over the years. For example: YOU NO LONGER CUT DOWN A TREE! Come on, Paul Bunyan and you don't cut down a tree? What sort of Paul Bunyan is that?

It's lame, that's what it is...don't really know where that came from, but I have a good guess...

My old PB card says, "Demonstrate how to fell a standing tree 4 inches or more at the butt..."  I recall an old OSHA regulation saying anything more than 6 inches required safety gear, but I cannot find this reference anywhere now.  Apparently OSHA applies to felling any standing tree now (https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/1998-03-04-0) (maybe ridiculous?)  And, you will be hard pressed to find any references in modern BSA literature to youth felling a tree (Fieldbook included), including G2SS policies.

If you know of any current BSA tree felling guidance anywhere, please point it out to me...I'd love to read it.

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THE NEWEST VERSION OF THAT BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and yes I am screaming in joy at ya  )

Last time I taught ITOLS, between my 1967 BSA Fieldbook and the 1950 or 60s version of the book you posted ( which was still THE book in use), these were the resources I used for wood tools.

You are most welcome...it says it was updated October 2020.  I had not seen it until very recently...

36 minutes ago, MattR said:

What's a prybar used for in the woods - assuming no nails are involved?

Moving large logs into position for cutting, and for moving rocks when doing trail work.

See requirement 7 in the Paul Bunyan...you would use this to meet the requirement to build the retaining wall or irrigation way.

The long prybar (rock bar, crow bar, tamping bar, lots of other names and configurations...) could be used for both logs and rocks.  I also have, teach, and use a cant hook (would like to get a Peavy one day) for the logs, but you can't (pun intended) use it for rocks.

https://woodmizer.com/us/how-to-choose-a-cant-hook-vs-peavey

26 minutes ago, MattR said:

Good story. We had an awesome competition and everyone said speed and I said precision. So it was how many times can you split a log, and you had to use the smaller piece of any split for the next try. That was fun.

Except for when, using an axe, they use a wrong stance and nearly hit their foot. That can prevent them from ever walking again.

Table saws are a whole different class of how to hurt yourself. It's one reason why I prefer hand tools in my wood shop. While I have a table saw I would like to get good enough and have nice enough hand saws to replace it. Hand tools are slow but they're much more enjoyable. It's the difference between walking in the woods and driving at rush hour.

Well worth the investment for your woods tools box.

https://www.magidglove.com/ellwood-safetyr-4-carbon-steel-toe-guards-702-tg?gclid=Cj0KCQiAzfuNBhCGARIsAD1nu-9EYQhWJytibMWSJT6oIQ3be4SXTMINkJYYZNhEr8IyHkljK_tBRoAaAhhZEALw_wcB