InquisitiveScouter

35 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

The issue I'm running up against is how to make Scouting work for the rural poor.  Cities should be easier, if you can get the timing, locations, and volunteers right.  In rural areas, it's more complicated.  If the kids don't have transportation, getting to a meeting is impossible.  

Lone Scouts with an itinerant Scoutmaster working on a grant, if the parents are unwilling/unable to be the Lone Scout Friend and Counselor.

I like the idea, and believe you should scope the idea first by defining the problem.

What, exactly, is the problem you are trying to solve?  And then explore the question as to whether Scouting is a solution to that problem.

The way to have phrased your OP, it seems like you are putting the cart before the horse.  That is, you have a solution (Scouting) that is looking for a problem (some sort of public health issue that can be addressed by a youth program, and the crafting of a policy to implement your personally desired solution.)

On 9/5/2021 at 8:37 AM, SSScout said:

What is Lion, Tiger, Wolf, Bear?   

And there are no lions in The Jungle Book.

23 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

all be a wasted effort.

Naw...every time they rehearse and prep, they gain a deeper understanding of what the Order of the Arrow is...

"You need seek no rocky summit.   These high places are within you.  All the natural world around you shows you clearly your reflection.  This Ordeal is but a pattern for a journey whose directions are the whispers, urgings, promptings deep within your hearts and spirits."

All those rules should be in your service's leave regulations.

18 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

That's what I figured.  It's funny that they say 500 hours and or 3 years, then cite a suicide hotline worker or Scout leader.  I think a Scout leader would rack up more hours quickly vs a hotline operator.

P.S. Over my 26 years in the Air Force, my commanders awarded me 3 MOVSMs...

Did you know your unit commander can authorize 10 days of Permissive TDY for a military member to support volunteer efforts like Scout Camp, so they don't have to burn leave?  And the first O6 in your chain can authorize it up to 30!

Yes, use the whole time they are there.  Even while sleeping, you are on call as an adult leader.

1 minute ago, vol_scouter said:

All want to provide a quality Scouting program to as many youth as possible - to meet the mission and fulfill the vision.

I wish that was my experience and perception...sadly, it is not.  I could change my perception, but then it wouldn't be based on my experience.

21 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Without professionals, there would be many fewer Scouts, little if any program beyond the unit level, and less organization. 

Without volunteers, there would be NO Scouts

@vol_scouter, very glad your experience, in general, has been positive...

But, help me please... on the one hand you say 

19 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

volunteers are responsible for all program

and on the other, you say...

19 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Without professionals, there would be many fewer Scouts, little if any program beyond the unit level, and less organization.

Those two assertions seem to be at odds.

Our entire district program is planned and run by volunteers.  We haven't had a DE in I don't know how long...

Council program is non-existent, other than Summer Camp...there has not been a council program event here for units in over three years...

(But there are at least five council fundraisers per year...golf outings, skeet shoots, silent auctions, popcorn, camp cards, etc, etc, etc...)

And the last council program event??? It was organized and run by volunteers.

Professionals here are most involved in scrutinizing the budgets of these events in order to set a price which guarantees income for the council...  (I have been in many of those meetings  )

12 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

NOT TRUE!

In this interview https://dianerehm.org/shows/2019-08-20/a-moment-of-reckoning-for-the-boy-scouts-of-america-and-a-history-of-sexual-abuse  .

He stated he wanted the complete dissolution of the BSA and IF something like Scouting is still needed, it starts from scratch.

Again the IF it is still needed, from the tone of the response, he doesn't believe Scouting is needed. 

 

 

 

And here is the essence of Kosnoff's stance...see in his tweet, "BSA has forfeited the moral right to exist."  https://twitter.com/SexAbuseAttys/status/1359252870462205954

Has it??

Only individuals can be moral agents, not corporations.  But, when the collective decisions of those individuals in a corporation tend toward objectives that seem, much of the time, to be in opposition to the beliefs/mission/ideals of the program they exist to support, then does the corporation take on the embodiment (which is what incorporation means  ) of a moral agent? 

That's the question I struggle with, based on juxtaposing a heap of positive experiences in Scouting (which were 99% enabled or provided by volunteers), and a heap of negative experiences in dealing with professionals employed by the BSA at all levels.

As Scouts, we promise to be "morally straight."  And, ultimately, we ourselves must decide, under the tenets of our faith, what is "morally straight."  

I also often think it is time for the BSA corporation to go, but I continue to hold out hope that there is some way to scrub it clean of the service to Mammon...

The one place I see "true" Scouting is in the local units.  So that is where I focus, for now.

12 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Re-imagining a new or restoring the old scouting are recurring themes on this forum.

One member @Kuducreated a website http://inquiry.net/

There you will find online scout handbooks in the Traditional Scouting section. All public.

My $0.02,

Another great resource...

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/scouts.html

3 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

"Fire me?"

 (The very, very short answer is YES, National can "FIRE YOU." And it has fired volunteers for non-sexual abuse reasons (political), fired units, and sanctioned councils.)

I came across your post while looking for something else.  But I have returned to respond-as I must.

 My conscience will not permit me to pass by your post without comment. Everyone should know the things that I know.

"But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career." --Liam Neeson playing Bryan Mills in Taken.

 In my case, substitute "knowledge" for "skills." And then you have it.

 [What follows is from my personal knowledge of the treatment by National, Region, Area and local council of several of my long-term, highly distinguished in Scouting, friends. I know these things to be true.]

 [Seat belts, please, this ride is violent.]

There is a document published by National entitled "Standards of Membership and Leadership."  It is a restricted document-distribution being limited to National staff, council scout executives, and select senior council staff who have a "need-to-know."

I believe, though could be wrong, that National concealed even the existence of this document for decades, though there is mention in the current bankruptcy of "standards of membership and leadership," I am not clear whether those references are to the particular publication of which I am aware, or some abstract concept of "standards."

(Some time ago, when the need to have a copy of this document would be helpful, a copy appeared in the mail to me, anonymously. A volunteer who knew someone, who knew someone, etc. seems to be the source of the document being sent to me.)

If one offends a Scout Executive, or Council President, ENOUGH, (and perhaps there other individuals in a council's hierarchy one can offend to trigger such a result), one may receive a letter (approved by National, as I understand it), stating, in effect:

"Membership is a privilege and not a right."

"The Boy Scouts Of America has determined that you do not meet its standards of membership and leadership, and is revoking your membership in the Boy Scouts Of America."

"You have the right to appeal this decision within 30 days of the date of this letter.  Send your appeal request and any pertinent documents to ...."

 You will receive a refund check in the amount of the dues you last paid.  (Insult to injury.)

 No statement of the grounds for your dismissal will be provided. Ever.

 And thereby, you will be BRANDED as gay, atheist, or a child abuser in your own hometown, church, community, family.  "What did Tom do???'

Conversation in church pew: "Where's Tom (or Mary) they are always here with their kids?"

"Oh, Tom (or Mary) was thrown out of Boy Scouting."

 "Why?"

 "No one knows.  He (she) won't talk about it. He (she) have just fallen off the radar."

 "Gee, Scouting is such a wholesome program, how could Tom (Mary) debase it so-what horrible people he/she/they are-has a criminal case been filed against Tom (Mary)?  Not taking my kids over there for our usual Friday's sleepover."

(I have no problem with gays or atheists-everyone is just trying to get through the day.  Those folks are not my life, but as I won't let anyone think for me, I ask not that anyone let me think for them.)

 But branded as a child abuser? People tend to think the worst of things, so get thrown out of Scouting, folks will think you are a child abuser.  Even if you are a CPA questioning some accounting issue?  Lovely.

 Does not "Trustworthy" apply to National?  (Well, that it has filed bankruptcy on account of its decades of lies about child abuse-so, apparently not.)

What is the point of the principles of an organization if not to be followed by not only its adherents, but also the organization?

 And expulsion all because you questioned a council budget item that embarrassed some pea-brained volunteer or Scout Executive. And because you volunteered as a scout leader to help your child.

 If you think that a long scouting career of distinguished, meritorious service will protect you.  It won't. I know this to be true.

 The BSA is a Congressionally chartered corporation.  That is rare.

 National titles itself as the "Boy Scouts of America."

 One would think that between "Congressionally" and "America," a banished scout volunteer would be accorded the rights accorded in the Bill of Rights:

To know the charges against you. Nope

 To present evidence (You can, but as you have no idea of the charges, what evidence do you present to rebut unknown charges?  Dutch oven recipes? A list of great restaurants in Gatlinburg? The phone directory of Lower Manhattan?)

 To appear at your hearing and confront witnesses?  Nope.  Can't do that.  You won't even know when or where the hearing will be held. Or who constitutes the tribunal. Or even if they ever meet or read anything you submit.  (Read Arthur Koestler's Darkness At Noon, where the accused are taken into a basement, but shot in the back of the head on their way down the steps to the basement. The accused don't even get the benefit of torture.) And scouting volunteers whose membership is revoked also won't get the right to speak a single word in their defense.

 To confront your accusers?  Nope. You will never know who you offended, or why they were offended.

There is NOTHING in National's "Standards of Membership and Leadership" which accords you any legal rights whatsoever.

 So, if you receive such a letter, get a copy of Franz Kafka's The Trial.  Read it twice.  I have.  It accurately portrays just what you are up against.

 National has structured the "membership game" that, win, lose, or draw, National always WINS!

"Let them hate, as long as they FEAR." (Some French King whose name escapes me.)

 "Work for free, send money, don't question."

Compliant and complacent volunteers, donating money, are welcome.  The troublesome, well, National has its ways.

 I expect that  if the same group of National staffers now employed retain their jobs after the bankruptcy, there will be membership retribution against identifiable posters on this forum.

 It seems to be National's way.

 (As I write this, I am looking at two Banker's boxes of files pertaining to the membership revocation war in my council from some time ago which my spouse wants me to cull. Now they are all so relevant again.)

And they will not be culled.

 It is a question of "finding one's backbone."

 Most folks avoid conflict and dissention-it is unpleasant-but for some, when their line is crossed, they stand up regardless of consequences, and thereby become the leaders National espouses to create but also crushes if their efforts are just too successful toward National.

 Can National FIRE ME?  Yep. And it won't care a whit.

All I can say: "Beware the Mother that eats her children."

And so, National lays down another layer of "Scouting Tradition."

Deceit.

@SiouxRanger, you are scaring me only because it is like you are inside my head...perhaps I am schizoprenic, and you are just one of my multiple personalities exposing some of the demons I face in this council...

Well...expose away   But do tone down the rhetoric a bit, please...

1 hour ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

I'll file 501(c)3 paperwork, start "Scouts USA" the next day, and then turn it over to the folks in Texas.

Sure, continue the movement, but do not shuffle it into the hands of that organization.  Get a new team together, and do it much better than they...

Heck, I'll sign on...full time...at $100K per year.  That's $900K less than Surbaugh got in 2018...

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/Form-990-2018.pdf

9 minutes ago, skeptic said:

To me, we are now in the position of the dog chasing its tail.🙄

Never underestimate this as a legal strategy some might take in order to achieve their desired ends...

Insurance companies, in order to pay the minimum they'll have to pay...

BSA, to a much lesser extent, but, still, in order to pay the minimum they'll have to pay...

Kosnoff-ites, in order to bleed BSA into a Chapter 7 situation...

As @David CO points out, "Bankruptcies are about money.  Period."  No matter what else we want this one to be about...

18 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Of course it does and always has.

Nope...does not put a damper on it.

A mentor of mine pointed out long ago...yes, there is often a price for telling the truth, but there is also a price for not saying anything when the truth needs to be spoken.

On 8/24/2021 at 9:44 AM, qwazse said:

If only bird-study were required for Eagle, there would be some great synergy between scouts and this sanctuary.

You mean, STILL required for Eagle, right?

http://usscouts.org/usscouts/eagle/EagleHistory.asp

You wanted some advice on being a Merit Badge Counselor (MBC)...

1.  Read the current Guide to Advancement (G2A) https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf, particularly Section 7.  Read it again.

2.  Get a current Merit Badge book for each Merit Badge you wish to counsel.  Read them.  Read them again.  Read them a third time. 

3.  A Scout must complete the requirements, AND NOTHING MORE!.  A Scout must complete the requirements, AND NOTHING LESS!  (see above) Too many times I see MBCs cutting corners, skipping requirements, or adding stuff that is not in the badge.  (This happens particularly at Summer Camp.)

4.  Requirements change from time to time.  Stay up on the current requirements for your badges.  Here is your best resource: https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/advancement-and-awards/merit-badges/  Know the rules for Scouts who start a MB, and then the requirements change while they are working on the badge.  (Basically, the Scout decides whether to continue under the old, or take on the new...with no mixing and matching)

5.  You don't have to be an expert on every requirement, but you need to know where to find help to in mentoring a Scout to complete a requirement.  An example specific to you Medicine, "7a. Visit a physician's office*, preferably one who delivers "primary care." (This may be that of your counselor.) Discuss the components of a medical history and physical examination (an official BSA health form may be used to guide this discussion), and become familiar with the instruments used."  I see from your profile you are a Paramedic, so, do you have a primary care physician contact that you can call upon to help a Scout meet this requirement???  Go back to step 2, and make sure you have an avenue you can guide a Scout down to help them meet a requirement.

6.  Get familiar with blue cards and the blue card process...both manually, and then through Scoutbook or other electronic means.  There are three people involved in the MB process...the Scout, a Unit Leader, and you.

7.  Scouts sometimes stop working on MBs....if you have been "assigned" to a Scout, and there is a long break, touch base with the Scout, and then the unit leader.  Don't be surprised if some Scouts start and never complete a badge...it's OK

8.  Keep blue card records.  Sometimes a troop's record keeping system isn't agile, responsive, or comprehensive, and a unit never records a Scout's MB.  Subsequently, a Scout loses his Applicant's Record, or the Troop actually took this portion from them (a pet peeve of mine).  It rarely happens, but it has happened for me five or six times over 30+ years.  The only record of the Scout's accomplishment then lies with you....and when the call comes, it is usually because Jimmy is running up against a deadline to submit his Eagle Application.  You can be the hero and save the day

9.  It is not your job to teach the Scout requirements, or make arrangements for them to complete requirements.  Scouts should be figuring that out themselves, and then coming to you to "Show Their Stuff".  Obviously, they sometimes need to be shown the way, and you can help with that, but don't fall in to the trap of you having to gather all the materials to teach every requirement.  You are not a MB teacher, you are a counselor...the Scout is supposed to do the work   From the G2A, "Earning merit badges should be Scout initiated, Scout researched, and Scout learned. It should be hands-on and interactive, and should not be modeled after a typical school classroom setting. Instead, it is meant to be an active program so enticing to Scouts that they will want to take responsibility for their own full participation."

10.  Find a way to have fun!

@SiouxRanger, concur.

For all...whenever they ask for your opinion on surveys, they don't really mean it...and never put your name in the "yes, you can contact me" portions if you have given input on anything that could be interpreted as criticizing the organization.  For the professionals, "feedback is not a gift".  And I have several personal experiences (scar tissue) in this, having questioned finances, program, YPT, condition of properties, etc. And your decades of volunteer service don't give your opinions (or facts) any weight 😵

6 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

I am not sure the word "grooming" fully connotes the insidious nature of the process/goal.

It's more like luring or baiting a trap.

16 hours ago, yknot said:

I just drove by that place the other day. My dad saw it fly overhead on it's way to Lakehurst right before it exploded. 

@yknot we must live in the same neck of the woods...you anywhere near Lakehurst, NJ?

Just back from Summer Camp.  Had a great discussion with a Scouter well-plugged into his council.  He was asked by the SE to participate in a "soft release" of Citizenship in Society Merit Badge.  SE gave no information other than that... 

Anyone out there have more intel??

Much rings true...unfortunately, it seems only hard times will bring back the focus.  And we are primed for hard times coming...

Great story! Thanks!

17 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I also wonder, how hard is it to get into the high adventure camps, Philmont, Northern Tier, Sea Base and Summit.

Very easy for small numbers... check the websites, crews often have several slots open and want you to join them to help lower overall cost for everyone.

Here's the Seabase Connections site:

https://www.bsaseabase.org/scouts/scout-connections/