InquisitiveScouter

6 hours ago, yknot said:

I was surprised by something else in that link. Further down it talks about Pack overnight campsite approvals. I've been out of cubs awhile but that's new to me and to most of our area units evidently because most of the popular cub scout camping sites in use around here would not meet all the criteria on the linked appraisal form. 

Another provision many councils do not support units for...

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

If you can publish a source, I'd really appreciate it.  ... I fully accept being wrong.  I'd just like a source if I'm wrong. 

Don't think you will find one.

Totally agree with anyone who sees vaguely written policies as a problem.  And yes, G2SS and other policies are vague in many areas.

You all realize the G2SS and many other BSA policies are written  vaguely intentionally, right?  It gives the BSA more legal wiggle room if things go wonky, or so I'm told by my lawyer friends.

I pointed out many of these discrepancies to council and national reps, and this messenger has been shot multiple times.

OK, so the permission slip is NOT REQUIRED by BSA, except for flying activities.  This is written right on the form itself.

"The recommended use of this form is for the consent and approval for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturers, and guests to participate in a trip, expedition, or activity. It is required for use with flying plans."

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/19-673.pdf

If your unit policies or your CO requires it (or even your council may dictate), then it is REQUIRED.

Now, having previously had a law professor as our CC, I picked his brain on lots of stuff...specifically this form.

His legal advice for our unit was to require the form, if for no other reason than as a demonstration of due diligence and duty of care.

https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/due-diligence.html

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=599

11 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Would an ASM from a near-by troop be sufficient to fulfill the adult supervision?  I'd really hope so.  Multiple times we've had a patrol from another troop join us on campouts with only one of their leaders attending.  The combination of their and our leader(s) fulfilled the adult supervision requirement.  I see zero issue with doing that in the future.

No.  The reason is that your CO must approve all adult leaders.  For example, since a CO may exclude unit leaders from serving their unit who do not meet with their own religious or sexual orientation standards, you cannot simply pull a leader from nearby troop.

"Registration Requirements

The chartered organization representative, or in their absence the executive officer of the chartered organization, must approve the registration of the unit’s adult leaders.

Registration includes:

Completion of application including criminal background check and mandatory Youth Protection training

Volunteer Screening Database check

Current Youth Protection training is required for leaders when renewing their registration or at unit charter renewal.

Adult program participants must register as adults and follow Youth Protection policies."

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a

Also, BSA policy (promulgated through their COVID FAQ and not through the G2SS, so good luck enforcing that one local and national councils)  forbids inter-unit overnight activities  without approval from council.

"Q: If my camp is cancelled, can my unit get together with other units and have our own camp?

No. Chartering organizations play an important role in the program and activities for their chartered units. Chartering organizations promote well-planned unit program for the units they charter and encourage their units to have active outdoor unit programs. Chartering organizations are not authorized to plan, promote, or deliver programs for units outside of their charter.

It is the role of councils to plan long-term or resident camps and the role of councils or districts to plan camporees (short-term camps) and other outings following National Camp Accreditation Program standards.   

Units with different chartered organizations that wish to hold activities together must have council approval. In addition, some states require such activities to be licensed."

https://www.scouting.org/coronavirus/covid-19-faq/

However, I'm of the mindset that if your CO approves (even only verbally through your COR), then you are good to go.

15 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

That is only $17 per person per weekend....sounds like a deal.

I meant overall for the entire camp...if you jack up the prices 150%, you can expect utilization to fall...

(And it's only $17 a head if you have 12...)

Our camp did the same thing several years ago...in addition to putting in electric and gas meters on each facility.  You pay a rental fee up front, and an electricity and gas usage bill at the end based on the readings (with a little extra tacked on)

Now, do you have any idea what it costs to purchase and install power and gas meters on 8 buildings?  What do you think the payback time on that cost is?  SMH

So, instead, most units will go to one of many other Scout camps within a two hour drive to get away from such nonsense, or, they primitive camp at the county park across the river at $1 per person for the weekend.

Exactly...we had two Scouts "team up" to do a local project like this at a place of worship.  One did the benches and the other did the raised stage and rostrum.  The projects were complementary and were done at separate times.  One Scout (the stage and rostrum) won the ESSP of the Year locally...

A few observations:

1) Wrong focus:  It is not about the project!!!  It's about the growth of the young person.  Use any and all of these situations for growth and learning how to deal with setbacks and competition. Teach him to look for the win-win instead of the win-lose.  See #2.

2)  What does the church want??  I guarantee you there is enough work at ANY church camp for fifteen Eagle Scout Service Projects.  Have your Scout meet with the Church Session to see what their needs are, and to discuss options and complementary work that could be done with any other projects in the planning.

3) You are right about the "flip side", and very wrong about the front end...please don't make accusations like "steal".  as @Jameson76 said, it is "First come, first served."  BTW, were you at the track meet where this was potentially discussed?  If not, you have zero idea what went down except your Scout's muddled half (or third) of the story...

2 hours ago, mrd14513 said:

It's not the most scout-like thing to steal another boy's project (one of our scout laws is trustworthy, one is courteous) -- and I think my scout has done more work on the planning aspect of the project to be prepared to present his ideas and get them approved. BUT, on the flipside, if my scout was not proactive and someone else moved forward with it before him, then perhaps that is a good life-lesson to not procrastinate in the future.

1 hour ago, 1980Scouter said:

My LC just raised camp fees at all camps 150% for weekend camp use. Trying to make up lost money. $200 for a 12 person cabin for the weekend. 

Watch the utilization rate drop like a stone...

2 hours ago, HtownScouter said:

Thanks for those who responded. No progress on my end. Can't imagine that I am the first to finish Wood Badge and ticket, and not get the beads, etc.    I will worry about all that later.  Perhaps in a couple month I will try to get a training completion certificate or whatever is used to document I completed the course and ticket.   If I ever change councils and still want beads, I can probably find some somewhere. 

You can call your local Scout store and ask to order a neckerchief, woggle, and beads...cannot do it on line, as they are "restricted" items. Items 2213, 2173, and 2175

https://www.scoutshop.org/catalog/product/view/id/663/s/wood-badge-tartan-neckerchief-2213/

https://www.scoutshop.org/wood-badge-woggle-neckerchief-slide-2173.html

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Training_Awards_WEB.pdf?_gl=1*12ys5s*_ga*MTI0MDc0MzQ4LjE2MzQ3Mjk1NDM.*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTYzNzM2ODk3My4xMS4wLjE2MzczNjg5NzMuNjA.

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Sadly the  drive for MBs is turning off my Scouts. They seeing folks with all 130+ merit badges being earned awarded in under 2 years, especially during COVID, is frustrating, angering, and discouraging them. They know the MBUs, online courses, and even a few summer camps, are giving away MB. Here are the guys earning them the right way by actually doing the requirements and not just by attending a class. I have had 3 conversations to date about this. One got so frustrated, he almost gave up on Eagle because it no longer meant anything because "everyone is getting it." 

I used @Jameson76 approach: focus on your adventure, and choices; and don't worry about what anyone else is doing.

Fixed that for you 😜

47 minutes ago, yknot said:

LNT Minimize Campfires  -- Cooking MB and extensive cooking rank requirements.  In many places this becomes tail gating in the woods. 

LNT Respect Wildlife -- Any requirement that involves collection of animals from the wild or creating artificial congregation points or food sources. For example, Fishing Derbies --  throwing a dying or dead fish back into water is not LNT and kind of a blind spot in cubs.

Jamborees? Maybe when they are in a parking lot but not at most sites I've seen them at.  

There are more -- easy enough to find if you look yourself. BSA has cleaned up some of it over the past decade -- it's not as bad as when they had requirements that were illegal in many states -- but it's still behind the times. These are just conservation components of the program. Many, many of the badges in a number of fields are out of date as well. The whole program needs an overhaul and going forward a way to update in real time.  Some of these should be partnered with expert source organizations to ensure that. 

 

OK, understood...a few clarifications, maybe?

It is "Minimize campfire impacts" not "Minimize campfires"...LNT does not discourage campfires, but promotes building in established fire rings, using dead and downed wood, letting your fire burn to complete ash, and only building it the size you need, etc.

Respect Wildlife...spot on...especially the MB's...rank requirements have been changed to say pictures are an acceptable method of "collection"...I'd recommend all ranks and MB's align to pictures, and collections only with permission of land managers (geology, forestry, etc., where a picture may not convey the best education)  For mammals, insects, birds, reptiles, and for plants, pictures should be fine.  I am especially amazed that National Camp School Ecology Section graduates still have Critter Crawls at Summer Camp where Scouts are encourage to scour the woods for wildlife to have a race or some such...

Jamborees?  Meh...as long as they concentrate the impact (at Summit), I'll remain ambivalent.  I'd advocate for a smaller size group...

Concur with your assessment that MB's and ranks need to align, not so much with LNT, but with a greater mindset of stewardship...this also includes TREAD Lightly for applicable MB's

My biggest pet peeve is councils logging their Scout camps.  Our properties could be crown jewel conservation examples, but nearly every camp I have been to over the last decade has had a large swath timbered (for cash, of course) with major impact to local wildlife and soil and water resources.  Every Scout camp timber operation I've seen would be better described as "Devastation for Currency."  In our last four summers (four different camps), we've had an environmental planner who works for the state with us, and he has really opened my eyes to the extensive damage councils are doing...

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Fun is a hard concept for adults who don't understand the scouting program. Adults like neat and orderly agendas that have measurable outcomes that tell them if they are succeeding or failing. Unfortunately first class advancement fits that mind set perfectly. Burnt pancakes is messy and means failure.

You said a mouthful!!

But, burnt pancakes aren't a failure!  You just learned a new way you shouldn't make them 😜 

19 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I get down voted for questioning someone who wants to create their own non profit scouting?

You can safely ignore down votes 😜

And I did not say we would create a non-profit scouting outfit...we would create a non-profit to support a unit for scouting...

You can see plenty of these "booster" clubs in existence already...

Like these...

https://friendsoftroop368.wildapricot.org/

https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/friends-of-troop-78,233028430/

https://www.for284.org/

And, if BSA goes Ch 7, we'll keep right on scouting...

23 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Does this mean you are in favor for a Chapter 7 liquidation of BSA?  That would give you one less youth organization to compete with for members correct?

Yes and no. 

Yes, I am in favor of a Ch 7 for BSA.  I believe we are to the point where we need a little "creative destruction."  I also believe a Scouting Phoenix will rise from the ashes...

No, the non-profit would exist to support only one local unit.  That unit could be a Scouts BSA unit if there is no Ch 7, or it could be could be a unit in some unnamed Phoenix organization.

BSA does not equal Scouting.  I mentally separate the two...one is a corporation, the other is an fun activity (when done rightly).

An analogy...if the US Tennis Association (a non-profit corporation) went Ch 7, people would still play tennis....same idea.

23 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

The goal of G2SS is not actual safety, but legal mitigation. 

23 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

If it was up to the G2SS folks the whole thing would be Family Camping, no youth allowed without the adult partner, thus moving any risk away from BSA.

Bingo!

44 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

We have noticed an increase of hawks around here as well. A lot of them.

Barry

Hawks and owls are a sign of a healthy ecosystem...lots of food for them, or they wouldn't hang around.  Mice, voles, snakes (in warm weather)...and, if you have skunks, then Great Horned Owls!  Skunks are one of their favorite foods.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

For us it wasn't the freeze, it was the hawk. There's also an owl.

Nice pictures, @InquisitiveScouter , did you take those? I'm thinking that was a long lens.

I have a fish pond in my yard i keep open with an air stone. It keeps the fish alive and the birds happy. Which in turn keeps me happy.

Nope...interweb-thingy images

14 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I agree with Mrjohns that that's not the rule, unless your council is locally imposing it.  

Even if they do impose that there would be no additional cost.  You can "multiple" register with multiple units, but you pay only one egistratin fee.

You cannot register as a MB Counselor (for free) and then multiple to a unit.  You must pay the adult registration fee.  Then you can multiple all you want...

And yes, our council (at least a few years ago when I posed the question) interprets that as registered in the unit. (for unit events)

The council has oversight for HA contingents and Jamborees, so they can vet those leaders...

4 hours ago, yknot said:

What's also head scratching are instances where Merit Badges and rank requirements are in conflict with LNT. Another thing that needs to be updated. 

A few examples, please?

40 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

And, for all of that, a legal structure much more protective of the donor's interests is to create a trust, transfer title to the trust, provide that the local council can use the property for so long as used as a scout camp, and that the local council's rights END when it is no longer being used as such.  The heirs of the original donors would be the "remainder beneficiaries" of the trust and would be entitled to direct the trustee to do with the property as they see fit.  In this scenario, title to the property would NEVER be held by the local council, and thereby, the local council would have nothing to sell. A title search would show that the trust owns the property and any buyer would require a deed signed by the trustee who will not do so without express, written direction of all of the remainder beneficiaries.

This is the model we will follow when we create our own non-profit for local youth to pursue scouting activities

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

InquisitiveScouter just showed a picture of my back yard. We very much enjoy watching the families of Cardinals and Woodpeckers repeatedly swarm our feeders each morning as we eat breakfast. However, we haven't seen as many of these families this year, as well as the songs from the Mockingbirds. Rumor is the lack of these birds in our area is the result of the hard freeze that dominated the US last February. Mother nature is usually pretty good at bringing balance. I have high hopes the families will overwhelm our feeders again soon.

Barry

Barry,

Make sure you put out some water for them, too.  Recommend a heated bird bath to keep the water from freezing.  Here is an example of one like ours.

https://www.amazon.com/BIRD-WISH-Year-Round-Thermostat-Installation/dp/B09B8TZV7J/ref=asc_df_B09B8TZV7J/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=532627731005&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8025039049157922163&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1023640&hvtargid=pla-1435659849501&th=1

You will have to fill it every morning, because of all the other visitors you will get during the night.  We have captured video of opossums, deer, foxes, raccoons, mice, and voles in winter getting water here.  Trying to get images of two elusive creatures drinking...a skunk (somewhere in the neighborhood and quite uncommon here) and a great horned owl (or any owl for that matter).   Although, reading suggests the owls love the sound of running water...can't afford to rig that up yet 😜 (for freezing temps) 

10 hours ago, awanatech said:

I believe the part in bold is, at least partially, why BSA wants every adult to be registered. $45/ adult starts to add up pretty quickly.

So here's one for you...can registered MB counselors attend unit events in excess of 72 hours?  For example, if your unit wants to do a 5-day backpacking trip for Backpacking MB, can you invite the counselor along for the trip??

Even though they are registered members of the BSA, and have had their background checks...the answer is "No", as they are not registered leaders in the unit.  That is the key point...anyone over 72 hours must be registered with that unit.  Or, to put a finer point on it, they must have a registration approved by a Chartering Org...

OK, so, what if you get your CO's approval to bring the MB counselor with you...could you bypass the payment requirement, as long as they are a registered BSA member?

I'd say absolutely "Yes!"  The spirit of the rule rather than the letter...

And how does that jibe with the new model of having the council charter units? 

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Interesting article about John Zane 84 who is celebrating 75 years as a Boy Scout and he’s writing a book about it - titled “Ever a Scout,”

Jonathan Glassman, Boy Scouts of America District Director for Connecticut Yankee Council,  said there’s no official label that says Zane has been in scouting longer than anyone else in the Connecticut Yankee Council, but he said Zane is “always the last man standing,” when they have longtime scouts stand up at the annual dinner, asking them to be seated in five-year increments.

Some topic-related quotes:

“I hate to think it’s just a history book without inspiration to the younger scouts,” he said. “It (Scouting) kept a lot of kids off the street, kept them physically active, intellectually. Boys say their teachers would ask, ‘Where do you learn this stuff?’ The Boy Scouts, of course.” 👍

 

He recalls the value of mentors on many occasions, including in earning the bird study badge . Zane needed to identify 35 birds and couldn’t find the last one - the yellow-bellied sap sucker.

One of mentors at camp said, “The woods are full of them.” It would turn out he was seeing them, but thought it was a cardinal, as they looked similar.

 

https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Ever-a-Scout-North-Branford-man-celebrates-16630350.php

Love the story...it is behind a subscriber wall for me...here is the cached page:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yiUQAFZVfN0J:https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Ever-a-Scout-North-Branford-man-celebrates-16630350.php+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

However, the cardinal and the YBSS look nothing alike (male or female) 😜  I think he was mixing up YBSS with downy and hairy woodpeckers.

5 hours ago, MGinLA said:

Anyone else agree with me or am I a lone lunatic raving in the wilderness?

False choice...both are true 😜

I agree with you, and you are a lone lunatic raving in the wilderness 🤪😝😲

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

edited the Topic title

Brilliant

12 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I don't know if the BSA is still publishing those handbooks.

They do...

https://www.scoutshop.org/patrol-leader-handbook-647788.html

https://www.scoutshop.org/sr-patrol-leader-handbook-647789.html

We provide them to our PLs, APLs, SPL, and ASPLs.  But, they mostly go unread and unpracticed.

As for adults, most don't get or won't read the SHB...