InquisitiveScouter

36 minutes ago, skeptic said:

the total destruction of the largely great program. 

I do wish I could get across to all...the loss of the BSA does not mean the loss of Scouting (the program).  Please separate the two "entities" in your thinking.

Scouting was around before the BSA appeared, and we can continue it just fine if the BSA disappears.

Is your loyalty to Scouting, the movement?  Or to BSA, the corporation?  (Or neither, or both 😜 ??)

1 hour ago, MattR said:

My guess is that they assume the parent is more reliable at keeping up the membership? I asked my son if he wanted any of the email I get for him and he said no. He's busy and I can't blame him.

I think you may have missed the point...

They already ask for the Scout's email in another section...

In the section where they want to have info from you (Your Information), as the purchaser of a Gift Membership, it would only go through when entering the Scout parent's email instead of your email.

And I go NO email confirmation of the purchase.

On 12/13/2021 at 4:21 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Anyone having issues purchasing a new membership??

"Error

Whoops!It appears important information is missing from your Eagle Scout profile.Please contact your Eagle Scout council updating the following information."

 

All data is correct...and it does not tell me which data is triggering the error message....

OK, so, this is new...I figured out that, if you are purchasing a Gift Membership for someone, you must put in the parent email address in on the section where is says "Your Information"  Never had to do that before.

3 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Just  trying to figure out how to split kindling  with loppers...

Very carefully 😜

21 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I don't believe it ever went away, it has just been changed over the years. For example: YOU NO LONGER CUT DOWN A TREE! Come on, Paul Bunyan and you don't cut down a tree? What sort of Paul Bunyan is that?

It's lame, that's what it is...don't really know where that came from, but I have a good guess...

My old PB card says, "Demonstrate how to fell a standing tree 4 inches or more at the butt..."  I recall an old OSHA regulation saying anything more than 6 inches required safety gear, but I cannot find this reference anywhere now.  Apparently OSHA applies to felling any standing tree now (https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/1998-03-04-0) (maybe ridiculous?)  And, you will be hard pressed to find any references in modern BSA literature to youth felling a tree (Fieldbook included), including G2SS policies.

If you know of any current BSA tree felling guidance anywhere, please point it out to me...I'd love to read it.

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THE NEWEST VERSION OF THAT BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and yes I am screaming in joy at ya  )

Last time I taught ITOLS, between my 1967 BSA Fieldbook and the 1950 or 60s version of the book you posted ( which was still THE book in use), these were the resources I used for wood tools.

You are most welcome...it says it was updated October 2020.  I had not seen it until very recently...

36 minutes ago, MattR said:

What's a prybar used for in the woods - assuming no nails are involved?

Moving large logs into position for cutting, and for moving rocks when doing trail work.

See requirement 7 in the Paul Bunyan...you would use this to meet the requirement to build the retaining wall or irrigation way.

The long prybar (rock bar, crow bar, tamping bar, lots of other names and configurations...) could be used for both logs and rocks.  I also have, teach, and use a cant hook (would like to get a Peavy one day) for the logs, but you can't (pun intended) use it for rocks.

https://woodmizer.com/us/how-to-choose-a-cant-hook-vs-peavey

26 minutes ago, MattR said:

Good story. We had an awesome competition and everyone said speed and I said precision. So it was how many times can you split a log, and you had to use the smaller piece of any split for the next try. That was fun.

Except for when, using an axe, they use a wrong stance and nearly hit their foot. That can prevent them from ever walking again.

Table saws are a whole different class of how to hurt yourself. It's one reason why I prefer hand tools in my wood shop. While I have a table saw I would like to get good enough and have nice enough hand saws to replace it. Hand tools are slow but they're much more enjoyable. It's the difference between walking in the woods and driving at rush hour.

Well worth the investment for your woods tools box.

https://www.magidglove.com/ellwood-safetyr-4-carbon-steel-toe-guards-702-tg?gclid=Cj0KCQiAzfuNBhCGARIsAD1nu-9EYQhWJytibMWSJT6oIQ3be4SXTMINkJYYZNhEr8IyHkljK_tBRoAaAhhZEALw_wcB

BTW,

Here's an awesome Forestry Service resource for axes...mainly for use by adults who want deep knowledge...

https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/php/library_card.php?p_num=1823 2812P

8 hours ago, Eagledad said:

A surgeon once re-attached two parts of my hand because I used a saw unsafely. 

Because of that experience, not taking wood-shop class wasn’t an option for my sons. I was counting on the Oldscout448’s to teach my sons how to use shop power tools safely.

I started my adult leaders wood-tools training class by explaining that the worst damaging flesh injuries in scouts came from saws. Not from not knives, not hatchets, and not the really scary axe. When a scout runs the teeth of a saw across his knuckles, it leaves a scar for life. You’re not only afraid of the wrong tools; your fear is dangerous because it makes you spend too little time teaching the proper safe use of all woods tools.

Accidents will always happen, but they occur a lot less after proper training.

Barry

 

 

After proper training, practice to proficiency (I don't see this a lot..."one and done" is a really bad idea here), group discipline to maintain the standards, and the behavioral example of adults and older Scouts in proper tool usage.

One good practice is to have Scouts look at the pictures in the Scout Handbook and describe what the sawyer is wearing for safety (correct) and the pictured saw technique (which is iffy...hard to tell if the sawyer has the end off the ground or resting on the ground...will potentially bind the saw...page 382 of my early 13th edition)

And there are so many "county options" out there it is pitiful...Totin Chip card carrying "requirements", cutting TC corners, insistence on ax yards on all camping trips, "blood circle" (a detestable term), "Thank You" requirements when not really needed, etc, etc

And here's a sweet piece of cringy footage https://www.facebook.com/Rovering4Life/videos/569755051050258/ 

And, as candidate for future Chief Scout of the USA, I'd lobby to put loppers in the woods tools section as the preferred tool for most firewood prep.

16 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I have a friend who is also a life long scouter, and his other job is in construction.  He accidentally cut of part of his thumb with a circular saw.   Sooooooooooo..........somehow his guys got ahold of his toting (sp ck) chip..maybe his wife was involved....and cut out a jagged circle right in the middle of it😉

Will that fit over the remainder of his thumb??

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

What does it matter? The scout was fulfilling his PoR by delegating to the ASPL.

I suppose the scouts could chose to recall the SPL and hold another election. And maybe if it were bad enough, if I were SM I’d suggest it to the PLC. If we officially suspended the scout, that would be another point.

It sounds like the troop benefited from a competent ASPL, the ASPL learned something about how unreliable his buddy was, and gained some experience. We chalk that up to a win and move on.

Asking a question is not reading anything into it.  If anything was read into the post, it was your supposing the job was delegated.  And, it does matter.  You and I generally see eye to eye on things, but we may diverge here...

The requirement says, "...serve actively in your troop for xxx months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility..."

Now, of course, the devil is in the details....what does "actively" mean??  That's a whole other discussion.  But, from OP, if a Scout vanishes like flatulence in a zephyr (paraphrasing), this is absolutely a situation that needs to be addressed.

We had the same here on the PL level.  PL was elected, but never showed up.  As SM, I had a discussion with SPL about the vanished PL, and how he wanted to handle it.  Long story short, the SPL called him, set reasonable expectations the PL, which he then did not meet, and the SPL informed the acting Patrol Leader that his patrol could elect a new PL, if they wished.  They did this promptly.  I documented everything.

The vanished PL needed the POR for Eagle Scout rank.  I declined to give him credit for time served based on his performance.  (His father agreed.)  The SPL asked him how he wished to serve the Troop to fulfill the requirement.  He asked for, and was given, another POR (unelected), a written set of expectations which he agreed to fulfill, and he fulfilled them.

That was a win-win-win.  Everyone in the Troop (and parents) learned that this matters, and that was the key lesson of leadership...we held him accountable.

P.S.  I did give credit to the APL for time served as PL (about two and a half months), because he stepped in and did the job.  He was subsequently elected, and, after a month and a half, he ranked up to Star (needed four months total)

9 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Should a CC who has a Scout in the Troop stay for meetings or drop and go?  I am unsure how much I should be around now.

Stay!  But, you are there to observe the bigger picture...

1.  Who is running the program?  Scouts or adults?  If Scouts, awesome!  If adults, then, on the side ask the SM corps what's the deal?  Find a way to help the SM corps put meeting program planning and execution into the hands of the Patrol Leaders Council.  At the BEST Scout meetings, the SM is the only adult who says anything, and that is for the SM's Minute at the very end.

2.  Are the SM and ASM's keeping a "distant eye" on things, or do the inmates have free reign?  SM/ASM should only step in for matters of health and safety.  (For example, if the meeting is about setting up and lighting stoves, then an adult should watch fuel handling and check the connections prior to lighting.) We also ask SMs to assist when no one has the skill set needed for the program.

3.  Are the Scouts having FUN!?  If they are not, you will lose them over time...  Remember: "A game with a purpose."  If they are not having fun, have a discussion with the SM, but not during that meeting  (maybe the next day?).  That isn't the place for that discussion. 

4.  If your Troop does BORs during a meeting, you will certainly be needed for those. Consider having a BOR for a Scout who has not advanced in the past six months  (If the climate in your Troop is such that this would be viewed as a bad thing, then something is wrong!!  Figure it out and correct).  Ask the Scout what their goals are, and if the Scout wants to advance, then you should ask about that.  If they do not wish to advance, then ask only program-related questions:  "What patrol are you in?" "Who is your patrol leader?"  "Have you had any patrol meetings?  Tell me about that...?"  "What do you like about being in the Troop?"  "What don't you like about being in the Troop?"  "What was the last camping trip you went on?  Tell me about that...?" etc, etc, etc 

5.  Recruit parents who are there a lot...they should be your committee members and the ASMs.  It is your job to recruit adults; it is not the SM's job!!!!  So, watch the current ASMs and ask yourself, "Who is the next SM?"  If there is no clear answer to that question, you have work to do.  Use your observations to develop a Succession Plan!!!  (OMG, wouldn't that be wonderful?)

Again, YES, by all means, stay at the meetings!  Please!  I loved having a CC who would herd the parent-cats so I could focus on finding the order in the Scout-generated chaos 🤪

Do you have, have you read, and do you follow your Troop Committee Guidebook?  Here's the 2011 version: http://commissioner-bsa.org/kit/Troop Committee Guidebook 34505.pdf  You have to pay for the new version (imagine that!)  Item number 647783, for only $6.99 https://www.scoutshop.org/troop-committee-guidebook-647783.html  No steak knives included...

6 hours ago, elitts said:

When my son was 15 he ran for SPL and got beat, and then became ASPL for one of the resume builders; who of course vanished like a fart in the wind about 2 months into his term.  So my son ended up acting as SPL for 3 or 4 camp-outs.  The second campout he did that on ended up being one where he was the only kid over 14, along with two 13 year old "my parents don't medicate us on the weekends" ADHD pains in the rear and then seventeen 10,11 & 12 year olds in four patrols.  By Saturday night he was just about in tears when he came up to me off in the dark at about 9pm to let me know that "Being SPL on camp-outs just totally sucks!  Nobody does what they are supposed to do, the ADHDers wander off the second there's a pause in whatever they are supposed to be doing and the new kids are such idiots they didn't even know how to boil water." (They were trying to boil water for hot cocoa in a 12" frying pan with no lid because the kid doing it "Couldn't find anything else to use".  I assume because the frying pan was at the top of the cook-box and blocking the view of the complete pot & pan set resting underneath and moving one thing while looking for a second thing still doesn't occur to 11 year olds.)

I was honestly surprised he still wanted to be SPL after that, but 10 hours of sleep seemed to put him right.

Please tell me the resume builder did not get credit for a term as SPL??

Anyone having issues purchasing a new membership??

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7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

We tolerated much of the rest as part of paying the price to be in scouts.  BUT, the price was a too much too many times.  I wanted my sons to camp, canoe, ski and get outside.  I did not bring my sons to be preached at repeatedly.

+1

17 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Scouts has an ALL GIRL (no boys) camporee

That should never happen. Totally violates the spirit of what we are trying to do.

50 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

COMMON SENSE

Lol...if only it was as common as we'd like it to be.

1 minute ago, yknot said:

In general of course, but individually that's kind of a given? My kids intuitively know that if anyone threatens them, whatever that threat is, it will also face me and hopefully die a painful death.  But -- myself, school teachers, coaches, 4-H leaders -- no one greets people at the doors of their activity saying that you'll die if you mess with these kids. 

Lol...it's not an in-your‐face kind of thing.  Tactfully done, and usually one on one.  Serious, grave, chivalrous even.  But never loud and public...that"d be weird bravado and very off‐putting, no?

40 minutes ago, yknot said:

That is very impressive but do you ever wonder what is wrong with us if we are involved with an organization where we think we actually need to say that before we head out with kids in our care?

No.  Nothing wrong with letting everyone know you will defend, tooth and claw, those who cannot defend themselves.

19 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I've never even thought of saying something like that, and if I ever thought I had to I wouldn't be going myself.

If I could see into everyone's heart, I'd probably never have to say such a thing.  But you have no idea what motives people have until you spend a good deal of time with them.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

I have no idea how to make that happen in the BSA as it currently exists.

I tell every adult at the beginning of our camping trips, "If you intentionally hurt a child under our care, I will hurt you, and I don't care if I go to jail."  And they know I mean it, and there are others who back me up

I got an email reply from them on a separate issue about two months ago...basically staff cuts and no one monitoring the communication channels, so your situation sounds about right.

Same here on the Eagle Directory postcards.   For the amount they have spent to send me forty postcards, they could probably have just printed and sent the book for free.  Better yet, make it digital...but no, gotta have that revenue stream 😜

21 minutes ago, Scouting412 said:

Nothing is accomplished, no activities... nothing.  Football and cards.  Even when we go to planned camporees, it can be like pulling teeth trying to get scouts to enjoy the activities. 

Sounds like football, cards, camaraderie, camping, and cooking were accomplished!

So...what do they want to accomplish...and what do you want them to accomplish?  Guarantee they will not be the same!  Remember, "This will be the hardest part for you to accept."

And put yourself in their shoes...probably every minute of their lives is scheduled with some activity.  They need unstructured time to develop.  There are a hundred studies that show this...  Do not be a slave to the "activity."

If they are camping and cooking, then those "activities" will lead to advancement.  Be available for them.  Set up your chair and another (for a Scout) near the fire and tell them anyone who wants to work on a requirement will have your undivided attention.  If a Scout takes you up on it, work on ONE requirement, them kick them to the curb for a few minutes and give the opportunity to another Scout.  I find this quite effective.  If no one takes you up on it, the start with one and do a Scoutmaster Conference (and sign it off if not previously done).  Talk for a few minutes about what they like about the Troop, what they would like to see in the Troop, and what they wish the Troop would stop doing (start, stop, continue...sound familiar?)  Ask them what their goals are for Scouting.  If they do not wish to pursue advancement, you have to be fine with that!  Help them set one goal.  SMART (specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time-limited).  Write it down, and make a commitment to follow up with them on it.

A parting thought... do not try to make your Scouts follow in your footsteps, do the things you have done, and become you...they won't, and they aren't.  Help them find their own way.

4 minutes ago, qwazse said:

@Scouting412, welcome to the forum. And my apologies for letting life get in the way of helping to roll out University of Scouting for Laurel Highlands Council. We could have met, I could have served you some insanely good espresso, and I would have advised you to hop on these forums for even better ideas. Besides referring you here I would have advised:

• Your job, based on your position, is to assist the scoutmaster. If he/she feels you’ve done that, you’re golden.
• Pandemics are a drag, but don’t use them as an excuse.
• Elections: only vote on SPL. Let him pick his assistant. Divide patrols (if they aren’t obvious already) based on friendships and who will be least likely to bully someone else. Each patrol elects their leader.
• Go through the patrol building steps … name, flag, yell, etc … Opening flag, do roll call by patrols. This can be fun.

Not much of a hiker? Dude, start walking! Get dahntahn with the boys and check out the trees and lights! We’ve made hiking out to be this complex activity. Keep it simple, have fun!

The corruption begins... 😜