InquisitiveScouter

And second youth staffer from my unit just confirmed....during the storm, adult staff did leave the dining hall to check on the NYLT patrols. (I'm fine with that...adults can assume their own risk...) But, the adult staff also had the youth staff go out in the storm to visit and check on NYLT patrols, with active lightning/thunder. I had the Scout on speaker phone with his Dad... I told him to please never do that again. Adults should not be directing them to take that risk. And, if they do, politely refuse. If they press, excuse yourself, get your phone and call your parent for help. Dad wholeheartedly concurred. That Scout is 14.

Dunno...

Yes, the usual practice is to wait until someone gets hurt/killed, settle the law suit, then do something about it... With thoughts and prayers for the family, of course... Jade for sale, anyone?

So, I just spoke with the Camp Director/Training Advisor... During Summer Camp, there is simply not enough space to provide safe haven for all campers inside recommended structures. Summer Camp "procedures" are to watch storm cells on radar, and only pull people into the robust structures if the cells get within 10 miles or if there is "significant effect" to camp, in the eyes of Camp Director and Program Director. (His explanation, not mine...) My observation of this practice is that it is based on an underlying assumption is that lightning is predictable. I do appreciate the dilemma based on building capacities. Of course, the follow on question is, well what do you do when there is a "significant effect" or the cells are within 10, with those that don't fit in the buildings? At this NYLT weekend event, he had advised Course Directors to use those Summer Camp procedures. Camp Director concurs with me that this is not acceptable, and that, if space is available, it must be used. He agreed (from under his Training Advisor hat) that they should not have applied the Summer Camp practices to this event. We will talk again soon after I digest this...and I will ask what course of action he intends to implement. Holding on to the Near Miss report until next conversation tomorrow... ------------------------------------ At the out-of-council Summer Camp we attended year before last, this was pretty much the same story. (I didn't give a flying leap.) When there was visible lightning/audible thunder, I happened to be near the Scoutmaster lounge, so informed the camp leadership. One (remaining nameless & title-less) looked at his phone and said "That storm isn't going to affect us." I told him I was pulling all my Scouts into the dining hall. As if it would change my mind he said, "Well, they are going to get partials for the classes they miss." I walked away to gather our Scouts into the dining hall. While we were in there, Scouts were out in the pouring rain, changing classes. Lightning struck and downed a tree less than 100 feet from dining hall. The flash and bang were spectacular 😜 In about 45 seconds, we had 200 new friends in there with us . One of those times you hate being right... Now anytime I tell our Scouts we are getting to cover, they skedaddle!

All good ideas... I'll try a "feedback is a gift" approach first and see if it gains any traction. And no idea on construction dates...50's and 60's original structures is my best guess, with multiple patchy repairs over the years

How about this "Design Your Own":

But this sign might not really help... What is a "Substantial Building"? I know the answer, but a 12-13 year old will most likely not... If this sign was posted on a lean-to, a Scout could easily interpret that to mean "Shelter Here"

Place your bets... When I file this report, I'm going to offer to purchase 50 of these signs (or better if @RememberSchiff can show me one) and put them up around our camp. https://www.safetysign.com/products/10353/when-thunder-roars-go-indoors-sign Think they'll take me up on it?

Got an example?? I found this one:

Lol, thanks... But, I know my opinions are not valued by our SE. And, I really do not expect them to change a thing... Of course, I do not recommend our parents have Scouts go to any council functions here. OA functions are laughable, and summer camp is much the same. Our neighboring council runs a much better NYLT program. I usually vector them there...this incident just confirms that course... Yes, 1x4's. and many of the lean-to's shake and shift (do you like those cement blocks?) They have been improving them over the years... Know of a tactful way to say I'm keeping a record of the incident and report, should a future injury be reported?

I have been drafting the Incident Report / Near Miss this morning. Trying to avoid emotion, conjecture, opinion and conclusions....just trying to stick to facts known from interviewing my three Scouts who were on the course. Here's one of the lean-to's at our our camp Better than a tent, or no cover at all, but not when there is a dining hall within a short walk. Staff also knew strong storms were coming well in advance, and should have wickered program to move indoors. BSA safety notes are clear and unambiguous that these structures are not safe during thunderstorms. Yet, staff, including professional staff (full-time position Camp Director) are telling people they are. Unsat.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

OMG, you will not believe this... So, during said storm, the adult staff told the 35 youth participants to stay in their lean-to shelters, which they did. Guess where the adult and youth staff were???...in the dining hall!!!! And there was plenty of room for all!! Guide to Safe Scouting: Camping: Lightning Risk Reduction? Well, I guess it is just a "guide"... Hazardous Weather Training?? meh... BSA Safety Incident Review: Lightning? That's for others, not me 😈😈 😈😈😈

nvm...googled "bripe"...gotcha

Dining flys, canopies, and three-sided lean-to's in the campsite immediately adjacent to dining hall. During the afternoon/evening and into the night... Talking with one more Scout this evening to corroborate before I submit a report to council. Thanks @qwazse for vector on the Near Miss. Spot on. They were literally 200-250 feet from a dining hall that accommodates 500 people... More to follow...

Second parent confirms same story from their Scout this morning...and that there were several Scouts who knew they shouldn't be out, but the adults told them to stay. grrrrrrr

And your stats are misleading. Those 350 million aren't really the sample population; they aren't outdoors in a thunderstorm. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-056_lightning.pdf

Concur. You and I can take our own risks. But, when dealing with OPK (other peoples' kids) (or your own kids, too, for that matter), the standards for duty of care, negligence, and child endangerment apply.

At our Scout meeting, I talked with parents of our newest NYLT grad. During the NYLT session last weekend, there was a strong thunderstorm. (We live about 12 miles, as the crow flies, from the camp, and it was pretty intense here.) The parents told me their Scout was terrified...Scout reports that NYLT adult leaders told them to stay outdoors during the storm with visible lightning/audible thunder. Dining hall was about 250 feet away. The parents asked me about lightning safety precautions and why they weren't followed. I told them I'd look into it and report. I will seek some additional input from our other NYLTers to corroborate, and report this to our SE in the morning. Any advice or experiences to share?? These things, if true, really chap my hide, as they border on criminal...

I love this lesson for our Scouts: "The truth has a date and time stamp on it...especially for maps."

If it ain't raining, it ain't training!

They are all underpaying to get their releases... It is the only way for them to survive. If they paid what they should, they'd be gone...

Wonder if you could buy the mortgage on Philmont? Then, when BSA fails, claim the property.

We are kindred spirits, then. I am glad that climate does not exist where you are. Please forgive me for drawing that conclusion from your post. I have heard this phrase repeatedly in the last two lodges I have been a member of, and it is used as a pejorative. Concur on your Brotherhood observations...sadly. In the last 10 or 15 years, I have experienced Lodges becoming more self-centered. The focus has been on the Lodge's program and what they can do to get Arrowmen to serve that program. I hope you agree this is a corruption of the purposes of the OA. I firmly believe this turns a lot of Scouts and Scouters off to Lodge membership. We could start another post on the topic of remedies for low Lodge participation...

Perhaps many do this because of the culture in your lodge that promotes using terms like "sash and dash"? I also am appalled... I ask you to reconsider using such a derogatory phrase toward your fellow Scouts and Arrowmen. You say you are an "ex" ceremonialist, performer, and coach. I believe your using this phrase reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Order of the Arrow is about. The Order of the Arrow exists to serve a unit's recognition of their Scouts and the promotion of camping within the council. Purpose As Scouting’s National Honor Society, our purpose is to: Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition. Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp. Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation. Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others. There is not one thing at all in there about Scouts having some obligation to serve the lodge. "An Arrowman’s first duty is to his unit. We must always keep in mind that a primary role of the Order of the Arrow is to strengthen units and help units to succeed, particularly in the outdoor phase of their program." This is from your Guide for Officers and Advisors. The Order of the Arrow is part of a unit program. If the Scouts of a unit wish to bestow the honor of OA membership on one of their own, neither you nor anyone else in the lodge have diddly squat to say about it. You are there for them... If, after election, a Scout wishes not to undertake the Ordeal, that is just fine. It's his prerogative. If the Scout wishes to complete his Ordeal, and never do a thing to support the lodge, that is just fine, too. Lodge membership is always a choice (through paying your annual dues first, then doing whatever else you wish as part of the lodge program.) After completing the Ordeal, a Scout is then ALWAYS a member of the Order, whether or not he chooses to renew his membership in the lodge. "I will always regard the ties of brotherhood in the Order of the Arrow as lasting..." Using the phrase "sash and dash" does not show a spirit of Brotherhood. In the Wimachtendienk, Amangiechsin 1984