InquisitiveScouter

55 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

My thoughts too, but then this is the reality of society.  Only those with credentialing exams really require one to maintain skills.  Everything has become a box check - get it done, get it recorded, forget about it.  I'm guilty of it.  Did a masters of public health over the last two years.  I couldn't tell you how to do an ANOVA if my life depended on it.  It's not valuable to my actual job.  I knew that going in, but someone, somewhere long ago decided that this was the degree needed to advance.  I'm not alone.  On the flip side, most of the core skills needed for Eagle are valuable for life.  I've dusted the cobwebs off of several of them over the years, even during my 25 year hiatus from scouts.  

There is a difference... when you completed your Masters, you did so through an accredited program.   When you learned your statistics, and did your ANOVA (Analysis of Variance, for inquiring minds...), did EDGE... your professor explained and demonstrated (hopefully), then guided you through a problem set.  Finally, you were enabled (or evaluated, which I think would be a better use of the letter 😜 ) through a test, and on a final exam.  You showed a level of proficiency, at the time.

I still have to open my Scout Handbook to review and refresh skills.  If you needed to do an ANOVA, you'd be able to brush up pretty quick, I'm sure.

What I am getting at is that many Scouts never even learn the skills!  Here's an example with orienteering...

The First Class requirements say "Using a map and compass, complete an orienteering course that covers at least one mile and requires measuring the height and/or width of designated items (tree, tower, canyon, ditch, etc.)."

Most camps and units I have observed doing this give the Scouts a map with all the points already on it, with courses, and distances, driving you to take a selected route.  When you do that, it is not orienteering... that is using a map and compass, but it is not orienteering.

For our orienteering, there is a master map.  Each Scout gets a basic map.  He has to copy the points from the master map onto his, and figure out what route to take to visit all the points (if that is the objective, which it usually is.)  When he visits each control point, we have a code on an orienteering marker which he must copy down and bring back to show he visited the point.

During the course, at one control point, there will be a height/width problem.  Younger Scouts have to do a simple height problem (stick or felling method) My favorite for the older Scouts is to do the distance across a stream or road (without being able to cross).  That is probably the most difficult measurement to solve from the Handbook.  (The Handbook shows equivalent isosceles right triangles.  Once they master that, and if they have the math skills, I teach them similar triangles as shown, because it is quicker, requires less space, and can be done without a compass. )

I have seen no other unit or Scout Camp that teaches to that standard.  (Even Orienteering MB is usually watered down.)  Yet, if you read the Scout Handbook, and see what they are getting at, this is how it should be.

I taught all those skills at IOLS, and most unit leaders loved it, because they had never been to that level of exposure or knowledge before. 

If your unit does this, kudos! 

P.S.  For a real challenge, I sprinkle fake markers throughout the course, too, to make sure they are actually map reading and using paces for distance, rather than just hunting for markers...

45 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

There is WAY to much focus on advancement in general, and specifically Eagle. EAGLE IS NOT THE GOALS! (major emphasis). Sadly I am seeing more and more "Eagle Scouts" who cannot do basic skills, sometimes stuff that Scouts have a reputation for doing. Best example I can give is the Eagle Scout who at a first aid competition could not do basic Tenderfoot thru First Class First Aid skills. when I asked if he had First Aid Merit badge, he stated he " I took that my first year at summer camp."

I'd rather have the Life for Life, who knew his stuff and was able to recognize I had hypothermia and treat me when I was hours away from a hospital.

This, and even then, we are giving the advancement away.  Many Scouts are not earning, they are just attending and getting a badge.  I see this in several units, and definitely at Summer Camp.

Whenever our Scouts are challenged in a badge program at camp, and actually complete the requirements as stated, I go out of my way to thank that instructor/counselor (not the same thing... a 16 year old is NOT a merit badge counselor) for their program.

I wish there was a better way for "quality control" or standardization/evaluation of these things...

3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

@Eagle1993 Thanks for your reporting through this whole process. Based on one of your bar graphs, it looks like they started at ~$230M? With $25M left, I wonder what their payroll and power bills are. That isn’t a ton of buffer to even cover normal inflows and outflows. It really seems, like maybe you and others had said, they didn’t have many months left. 

Yes, Chapter 7 (liquidation) is still a real possibility, IMO.

It is a legit option...  not doing advancement, that is.

But not doing KP when it is his turn on the Duty Roster?  No way!  That is the price of admission. (You didn't say, but I am assuming your Patrols have duty rosters.)

We have had Scouts who have not wished to work on advancement, and we are fine with that.  Just had one turn 18 last December.  Great kid, always there, friendly, but no interest in working on rank.  (I did cajole him over the years to at least earn First Class.  That should be the measure of all Scouts. IMO, because it is skills based.)

But, if his Patrol, or the whole Troop, are doing an activity, he must be there.  Troop Swim, for example... He does not have to swim, but he does have to be there with the rest of the group, instead of off on his own.  That is a health and safety issue.

I give no quarter to dissent on issues of "health and safety". 

Food in the tents?  No way.  Health and safety.  I have seen too many chipmunks, mice, skunks, ants, and bears!! in tents because Scouts have food in tents.  (If you do not follow my instructions when it comes to health and safety, you cannot come camping with us.  Simple.) 

Does he wear a uniform?  Is he part of an active Patrol?  Does he know and try to live by the Scout Oath and the Scout Law?  Does he love the outdoors?  Does he associate with and interact well with adults?  Is he growing as a leader (sounds like he has influence...)???  Do you see him experiencing some personal growth? 

If yes, then he is 7 out of 8 for Scouting!  And that is fine!

He is learning from all of your examples.  How you treat him in his decision to not do advancement is a lesson for him, as well.

Happy Scouting

2 minutes ago, RookieScouter said:

Thank you! Scoutbook is a great source. But many of our new scouts are not setup to receive emails due to them not having one. Most of the parents use it. But there isn't information besides keeping up with their achievements and money on acct. This is a great idea to bring to the committee. 

We let all new Scouts and families know that Scoutbook is our primary means of communication, and that through email.

Some parents do not wish for their Scouts to have email accounts yet.  That is their prerogative.  The primary means of communication is still Scoutbook.  Whether by an email "push" of information, or a family or Scout "pulling" information from Scoutbook directly (the Scout logging on to parents' account if the Scout has no email) 

All other means of communication are "supplemental", whether verbal (as at meetings), by texts or phone calls, or word of mouth.

About five times a year, parent X will call me and say "Jimmy missed the event because we never heard about it."

To which we always respond, "Did you read your email or check Scoutbook?"  The answer is always <crickets> because "the usual suspects" expect you to hound them directly until they have gotten the information they need.

It takes both pushing and pulling information to bridge the communication gap.

We also set the expectation that PL's contact each member of their Patrol by whatever means necessary.  (Divide and conquer.)  Each Assistant Scoutmaster assigned to a Patrol mentors the PL through this.  Some PLs are good at it, and the results are obvious.  Some PLs stink at it, and the results are equally obvious.

Also, you ought to work to drive identity to the Patrol level.  This is the heart of Scouting.

A Troop is not made up of Patrols...

Patrols come together to form a Troop.  Please work to shift to that paradigm.  Your Troop identity comes in the form of Troop numerals and a Troop neckerchief (optional) selected and approved by the PLC.

That said, if our CO were to ask the same question, we would be happy to comply, but tell them it will cost them the "start-up" fees.  Everyone who has already purchased, say, a neckerchief, is vested in that identity, and if the CO wants to change it, let them know what the cost will be, as @mrjohns2 says, "...as supplies run out..."

I do wish we could fully put all responsibilities for stuff like this on our Scouts, and get the great results we are looking for.  But that is not reality.  I always say, "You have to remember who we are dealing with."

We use Scoutbook for communication by email.  Whenever a Scoutbook email goes out to Scouts, all parents are automatically cc'ed.

Best wishes as you pursue the goal of purely "Scout-led"

45 minutes ago, Double Eagle said:

A SM conference is always an "end of requirements", one-time thing.

Actually, it is not.  An SM conference can occur at any point during the journey to the rank.  This is a common misconception, because it is always listed last, just before the BOR requirement.

From the G2A. para 4.2.3.5:

The unit leader (Scoutmaster) conference, regardless of the rank or program, is conducted according to the guidelines in the Troop Leader Guidebook (volume 1). Note that a Scout must participate or take part in one; it is not a “test.” Requirements do not say the Scout must “pass” a conference. While it makes sense to hold one after other requirements for a rank are met, it is not required that it be the last step before the board of review. This is an important consideration for Scouts on a tight schedule to meet requirements before age 18. Last-minute work can sometimes make it impossible to fit the conference in before that time. Scheduling it earlier can avoid unnecessary extension requests.

The conference is not a retest of the requirements upon which a Scout has been signed off. It is a forum for discussing topics such as ambitions, life purpose, and goals for future achievement, for counseling, and also for obtaining feedback on the unit’s program. In some cases, work left to be completed—and perhaps why it has not been completed—may be discussed just as easily as that which is finished. Ultimately, conference timing is up to the unit. Some leaders hold more than one along the way, and the Scout must be allowed to count any of them toward the requirement.

And, you can have more than one!

A local Troop was doing this, as well as re-testing at BOR's.  Because their BOR's were so intensive, the Troop was taking months to schedule a BOR when a Scout requested one.

I had a parent from that Troop ask me about this... I was shocked at their report of the situation, and told them this was not appropriate, and that they should point out exactly what @T2Eagle cited above.  I also told them that if their Troop leadership was unresponsive, they were welcome to join us.

I followed up with a phone call to that unit's Commissioner, and to the District Advancement Chair.  Don't know if anything ever came of that...

However, about three weeks later, half the Troop bailed and came to join us.  Most of the Scouts ranked up very quickly...  That Troop now is in danger of collapse.

That said, I understand the desire to do this.  Scout skills are abysmal.  Adult knowledge of Scout skills is abysmal.  And, if older Scouts and adults don't know what they are doing, how can they teach?

I have been working on the latter... our adults' skill sets are leaps and bounds beyond other Troops in our area.  The PLC and SM Corps has been working on the former, through program.  Our Scouts actually do not like to go to District events, because they routinely trounce the competition in Scout skills events.  It is no fun for them 😜 

I'm an advocate for bringing back "testing", at least at the First Class and Eagle ranks.

5 hours ago, FireStone said:

One of the things I've been struggling with is this "how to" part of it, the possibility of training adults to look for recording devices. Which apparently is harder than it would seem, because Camp Winnebago had found a recording device in the trading post bathroom in the summer of 2021 and despite then starting to regularly search bathrooms, they clearly missed new devices being placed and used.

So it sound like either devices are tricky to find or that the camp just gave up on their searches after a while. Because clearly this guy was able to resume recording and continued to do so in the exact same bathroom.

I don't know what the answer is. But it seems like it's way too easy for this to happen, and we need some sort of plan to combat this moving forward.

I vote to bring back public hanging.

11 hours ago, James6 said:

My son had to appeal a negative Eagle Scout rank decision to the national level.  It has now been four months since it was sent (through our Council, as per the Guide to Advancement), and we haven't heard anything.  Our Council doesn't seem to be able to provide any information at all.  Does anyone here have any experience with this sort of situation, to provide insight into how long National Advancement usually takes to address it?

Thanks, James

James, would you mind sharing a bit of detail as to why your Eagle Candidate's appeal was necessary?

Also, I do not believe National has the agility to anything "quickly" these days, as they may be fully focused on gearing up for the National Meeting at the end of this month.

https://scoutingwire.org/save-the-date-for-scouting-forward-2023-bsa-national-annual-meeting/

39 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I wish I could provide more detail.  Four months seems long, but I'm not sure.

QUESTION - Did you appeal to national via your council?  Or did you directly appeal to national?  I'm curious about procedures.  I ask as I'm wondering if and when national received the appeal.  Was there a middle man?  Did it really get there?

Did the council courtesy copy you (and/or Eagle Candidate) on the forwarding of the appeal?  That is, do you know that National, in fact, received it??

3 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I thought WAGGGS also called them NSOs? I'm not always clear on the difference since Scouterna (SSF in my time) is aligned with both and it just doesn't seem that important. Scouting is scouting. If WAGGGS calls them something else then I guess it's a guaranteed one per country on definition grounds.

BSA and GSUSA make it that important here, because it is about MONEY!  BSA has badgered other organizations who wanted to call themselves "Scouts", by threatening legal action for calling themselves that.  Again, those moral and ethical decisions...

Baden Powell Scouting Association (now Outdoor Service Guides due to "cancel culture") and Trail Life...

Looks like SpiralScouts is ignoring them 😜

29 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The mission of the BSA does not specify the program used to instill the values of the Scout Oath and Law so STEM programs are a valid method of fulfilling the mission.  If offering STEM programs to non-Scouts, the council could be using the experience as a recruiting tool so could support the mission of the council.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgebradt/2017/12/01/why-focusing-on-your-core-is-almost-always-the-right-choice/?sh=4b2e451e21b5

Especially #2

7 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:

If I thought these additional programs took anything away from how our Council delivers services, I'd be vocal about it, but I've never seen nor heard a complaint about a unit being disadvantaged because of the existence of these programs.

Fair enough... but that isn't the case around here.  

Scouting is really struggling in these parts, with many issues at cause.

If they were really an "independently formed non-profit organization", why don't they just focus on those money-making programs and just ditch all that cumbersome Scouting and "moral and ethical" stuff?? 

8 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:

I can't believe someone is complaining about a Council doing something good for their community while at the same time helping to maintain a stable budget. If you think your council's SE isn't worth what their paying, or the council should be doing more with the resources they have, become the squeaky wheel. Venting here isn't going to change anything.

Whoa, Trigger!  You know not of what you speak.  I put in well over 40 hours a week as a volunteer in our Scouting community.  And I am that "squeaky wheel," not just "venting" here.  You ought to ask a little more before casting those aspersions...

4 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:

Tell me, what is the difference between providing a STEM program to Scouts and a similar STEM program to non-scout youth, when it comes to the mission of BSA?

Because in the Scouting programs, we are still using the Aims of Scouting, which include instilling ideals of the Scout Oath and Law.  The STEM program of Scouting is one of the hooks we use to provide youth a program, while we work through the Aims to provide a "moral and ethical" context.

12 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:

The SE is responsible for all of the facilities run by the council, whether they are being used for scouts or other groups. In the case of our council, they have worked with the schools to develop and run STEM programs for the schools. The school group is still responsible for supervising their group, but the program is provided (at a fee) by council staff.

Thanks, but isn't that  "mission creep"??

What you describe seems to go outside the stated mission of the BSA: "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

17 hours ago, sierracharliescouter said:

Something to consider, which may or may not be applicable in your case, is what other services your Council manages/runs outside of Scouts. In our council, there are some very significant programs run that involve school programs across the region, including overnights by non-scouts at more than one of the council facilities. Our SE does have to be involved in overseeing a lot of non-scout programs, involving thousands more youth than just the scout numbers. 

Would you elaborate, please?  To what services "outside of Scouts", what kinds of "significant programs", and what "non-Scout programs" are you referring?

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

Why would the SE oversee programs not involving scouts? Even if a non-scout group was to rent a council facility, that group's leadership is still responsible for their own group's program, not the SE.

I think the were referring to Learning for Life and ScoutReach programs, if they are still going??

39 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:

Something to consider, which may or may not be applicable in your case, is what other services your Council manages/runs outside of Scouts. In our council, there are some very significant programs run that involve school programs across the region, including overnights by non-scouts at more than one of the council facilities. Our SE does have to be involved in overseeing a lot of non-scout programs, involving thousands more youth than just the scout numbers. 

Our council does none of that.

From the income by zip code finder https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/

By any stats you look at for our zip code (and surrounding) our SE is way overpaid... top 20% of households!, not just single income earners.  Our SE salary is double the median for individual income.

Again, when people ask me if they should donate to council, I point these numbers out, so they can make an informed decision.  If they ask for advice, I suggest they give it directly to a unit, or put their money elsewhere to do good in our community.

P.S.  Just checked... our SE makes 50% more than the CEO of our local land preservation trust.  This land trust has twice the employees, outright owns over 1500 acres throughout 50 properties, many with historic buildings in preservation.  They recruit a small army of volunteers to help maintain these properties.  They manage conservation easements on 16,000 more acres, and put on many more events during the year than our council does, including day camps for kids (focusing on environmental education) throughout the summer.  (They do not do an overnight camp, though.)

Council total assets is $6.6M, with revenue of $939K.  Land preservation trust assets are $27.4M, with revenue of $7.4M.

Might be apples to oranges, but I think it is a near-comparison.

Talk with the Committee Chair (CC) first, privately.

If that doesn't soothe things over, ask someone else who has clashed with them to speak with them privately.  The message might begin to get through.

Do not double-team or call them out in public.  It will only make matters worse.

If the behavior is destroying the Pack, take the other person/persons who have clashed with the CC, and go have a tactful conversation with the Chartered Organization Representative (COR).  Before you do this, have a plan for what to do next.  Who is going to be the next Committee Chair?  If you cannot answer that question, then all you are doing is pulling the pin on the hand grenade and tossing it in the COR's lap.  (Be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem.)

When you have the next person wo is willing to take on the role of CC, and a group of like-minded people to talk with the COR, ask the COR to speak with the CC to either modify behavior or step down.

Adults ruin Scouting.

Best wishes...

59 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

At one time the scout camp lands were just that, land. Scouts would go and camp in the woods and paddle the lakes just like if they were on national or state forest lands. There was little to no infrastructure to maintain. With the creation of dining halls, trading posts, cabins, etc... the cost for maintainance skyrocketed.

Ironically to help pay for these costs, many councils sold public easements to states so that during non-camp times the general public could use the lands for hunting, fishing and camping outside the "main camp", ie the woods and forests. So the general public now uses the unimproved forests for the same experiences the scouts used to use them for generations ago  to help pay for the scouts to have more indoor facilities. 

But, we have to create the country club!

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Could we have this training available online before this summer's scout camps and National Jamboree ?

https://us.norton.com/blog/how-to/how-to-find-hidden-cameras#

#8 is interesting.