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InquisitiveScouter

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Posts posted by InquisitiveScouter

  1. If you had a parent signed application back then (even if the parent held on to it before giving it back to you) then you have what I have heard two different registrars refer to as "intent to join."  (I don't know if this is some official registrar term or not.)

    If the application was dated three months ago, then the registrar could back date the registration to that date, and charge the unit the commensurate back-dated fees.  Then, all activities since that time are creditable.

    Only requirements completed on or after the joining date are creditable.

    This WILL be a potential problem down the road.  Make sure all ranks, badges, etc., approved in the system show a date on or after joining date.  This condition is an automatic kick-back on an Eagle Scout application.

    That is the "letter of the law" answer.

    The "spirit of the law" answer is what @MikeS72 @SiouxRanger@mrjohns2 are about... give the Scout credit, and adjust dates as necessary, if the registrar has already entered a conflicting joining date (after your three months) in the system.

  2. On 2/25/2023 at 12:57 PM, SiouxRanger said:

    Our unit, in my experience, has never formally "vetted" anyone.  If an issue with respect to some adult is noticed, the leadership generally discusses it and formulates a plan to address it.

    All that background stuff printed on the adult application is information provided for the CO to vet (and make a decision whether to accept or deny) the person.

    See the blurb above the CO signature block.  "APPROVALS FOR UNIT ADULTS: I have reviewed this application and the responses to any questions answered “Yes,” and have made any follow-up inquiries necessary to be satisfied that the applicant possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities to be an adult leader in the BSA."

    Your CO and unit should really be exercising "due diligence" in vetting people. 

  3. 1 hour ago, PACAN said:

    @MattR"As others have said, what's that much different between one night and two?"     One? 😂

     

    Same :   Why can't MBCs go camping with a troop and need to be a paying volunteer?    They have the same YPT and other required clearances as a paying volunteer.     Cash? 😏

    The official answer is MBCs are not vetted by your CO/COR.  Only unit registered adults (CO approved) are supposed to be camping with your unit.

    That is why inter-unit events are to be cleared by the council.

    Now, do you think the council really does anything for these inter-unit events, other than tacking on a fee?

    And if you could get your CO to approve the MBC, you ought be good to go.  But I'd get that in writing, just to have your bases covered.

     

     

  4. 1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

    We created a 501c3 a couple of years ago. We are about as small as you can get with <$200 of expenses and no donations for the first year or 2. When a volunteer’s employer checked recently, we were on the list! That was our first real donation. It does have to be a registered 501c3. Many churches aren’t since they are exempt from the paperwork if they are a member of a larger denomination that is. So, the larger denomination would be in the list, but not the unit. 

    Corporate finance office usually just has to check that the EIN is a valid 501c3 with IRS.  It takes a few keystrokes...

  5. 35 minutes ago, Alec27 said:

    Morning All, 

    Where can I find the info about what awards my troop leaders currently hold, such as award knots, service pins, recognitions, etc.  One of my Scouters, a man that has been with our Troop for almost 2 decades is a very modest gentleman.  He has served as SM, ASM, UAC, CC, COR and only wears the bare minimum on his Class A.  I'm trying to figure out if he has been awarded things in the past and is just too modest to wear them on his uniform, or maybe nobody over the years nominated him for anything through the council.  If the ladder is the case, I'd really love to put him in for the awards he rightfully should have.  Is there a way that I can see what awards or recognitions he has earned / been given somewhere in my.scouting, or SB or somewhere else.  I have pretty good access to those platforms as a Troop Admin and UAC.  Thank You All !  

    You must call your Council Registrar to ask this info.  The Registrar has access to all recorded adult awards.

    Depending on how you sell it ( :p ) your Registrar might not provide the info directly (like a list).  That is, for example, you may only be able to ask, "Does our Unit Leader have the "Award of Merit'"?  The Registrar may tell you Yes or No, and then you can move forward on that info.

    In fact, that is the course I would recommend... Pick an award you think your leader qualifies for 

    https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/what-cub-scouts-earn/adult-awards-and-recognition/

    Scouter's Training Award

    https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Scouters-Training-Award-for-Scout-BSA-Leaders.pdf

    Scoutmaster's Key

    https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/511-054_WB.pdf

    Unit Leader Award of Merit

    https://www.scouting.org/programs/venturing/venturing-awards-and-advancement/leadership/unit-leader-award-of-merit/

    District Award of Merit

    https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33720.pdf

    etc, etc, etc

    Be advised, your leader has been around long enough that he may have an award already, but it is not recorded.  That's OK!  Recognize him again, and work with the Registrar to make sure it is recorded!! 

    Or, you could pick an award, and ask him if he has it.  If he says yes, work with them to figure out an award date and ask the Registrar to put it in his record.

    Thank you for doing this!!

    • Upvote 1
  6. 17 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    Next year, have your wife's company make the donation to your CO.  Coordinate with your CO ahead of time to ask about this and ask for the funds to be passed on to the Troop.

    This is perfectly fine, but your council will be livid.

    @5thGenTexan, to further clarify, you need to coordinate that with your CO because you need their EIN (and address and contact info) to provide to your wife's company.  The company needs that info to make the donation, and for tax reporting purposes.

    Also, ask your wife to find out how the company makes the donation.  If by paper check, mailed, then that's probably all the info you need.  If they do electronic deposit, then you might be able to have them send it directly to your unit bank account by providing ABA Routing and Account numbers.

  7. On 10/10/2019 at 3:54 PM, RichardB said:

    FID Logo

    Are you referring to this chart??

    It does not clarify.  The stipulation that Scouts, BSA may have "Weekend Campouts" is distinguished from the "Pack Overnighters" only in that Pack events must be at "Council-Designated Locations Only".  Throw in the Family Camping for Webelos Scouts block, and it only adds to this confusion.

    Here is the official link to the chart, BTW:

     https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-686.pdf

    That document has no links in G2SS pointing to it, that I can find.  (Would someone else check this, please?)

    The only document I can see linked from G2SS is this one:

    https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf

    Which, again, adds no clarity.

    Back then, the other reference to this was pointed out by @malraux, which is still a valid link:

    https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/activities/cub-scout-camping/

    Now, that guidance DOES add clarity.  However, burying this significant restriction in only a few obscure locations is a poor practice.  Something like that ought to spelled out unequivocally in the G2SS.

     

    3 minutes ago, MattR said:

    In defense of @RichardB, there's a chart in the 2019 post that does clarify all of this, so don't shoot the messenger.

    That said, we did ignore that rule because having webelos (aol now) join us for a campout with their parent was the best recruitment method we had. Going up for the day or just one night doesn't compare because the cub is not integrated as well. Other than sleeping we put him in a patrol. They loved it.

    As others have said, what's that much different between one night and two?

     

    And, he is not a "messenger." I believe this @RichardB is THE BSA Director Environmental Health and Safety,

    and his LinkedIn profile describes his job as including, among other things, "Provides content and editorial leadership for Scouting Safely website and EHS Publications. Provides safety and health interpretations for standards, rules and policies and procedures. " (emphasis added)

    If that is not his position, then I'll be happy to withdraw the arrow from the messenger's chest. 😛 

    https://youtu.be/DgK25o__0Hw

     

    • Like 1
  8. Are you sure someone filed your registration with the council?

    You can tell, if you have an account on my.scouting.org

    The phone app for scoutbook has little functionality, IMO

    Best to go to the website and use the online application.

    Have you logged in there?

  9. 5 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

    With our Troop fees figured in, it's $415 a year for our family.  Before trainings, MB fees, camp fees, all the stuff I buy for the Troops and don't ask for reimbursement.   And my wife's company matches charitable donations, so FOS got $500 from us this year.

    Next year, have your wife's company make the donation to your CO.  Coordinate with your CO ahead of time to ask about this and ask for the funds to be passed on to the Troop.

    This is perfectly fine, but your council will be livid.

    • Like 1
  10. 29 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

    What I'm saying is that people who only have experience with others like themselves and don't see differences make assumptions based on their own experiences of similarity.

    And here you are, making an assumption about "people who only have experience with others like themselves..."

    That is exactly the kind of gross generalization and stereotyping that we are opposed to.  Physician, heal thyself.

    Deal with people individually.  It is the only way...

    29 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

    You hear things like "I treat everyone the same",

    I don't hear this... because no one treats everyone the same.  We all act differently around different people.  I do not treat everyone the same.  But I do strive to treat everyone fairly.   There is a huge difference.  I do not treat a 17 year old like I treat an 11 year old.  I do not speak to women the same way I speak to men.  I do not treat my elders like I treat my peers, or those junior to me... and on and on and on... 

    We are and act differently depending on with whom it is we are interacting.  This is a psychological behavior called "self-monitoring"  https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-self-monitoring-5179838

    And, just like any psychological behavior, it occurs on a spectrum.  Too much or too little self-monitoring can lead to harm to self and others.

     

    • Upvote 3
  11. 6 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

    I think more importantly is "why not?". For the GTSS to have real buy in, all restrictions should have at their core articulable rationale for all restrictions. All restrictions, rules etc... must be written succinctly to not require a 19 page FAQ attempting to explain how to follow them. 

    If any appear to be arbitrary (or worse) then those tasked with implementing the gtss will  ignore parts they decide are arbitrary, "up for interpretation", or just plain ridiculous. This makes the gtss ultimately just a list of suggestions. This failure is owned by those who penned it without meaningful buy in from those tasked to implement it. 

    @DuctTape for National Commissioner!  (It's been a while, so it needed saying again 😛 )

    • Haha 1
  12. 12 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    Interesting post. I agree with the first paragraph, but based from my experiences, have a different opinions on the rest. I guess different experiences lead to different biases.

    Barry

    Just remember, Barry... You are unique!  (Just like everyone else ;) )

    There is a deep danger in focusing on "identities."  The result is a descent into tribalism.  (We could improve the merit badge by removing this term and "equity" from the line-up.)

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-empathy/201903/when-tribalism-goes-bad

    Instead, we should craft questions in the discussion with Scouts along these lines:

    - Research an event or situation in US history where a person or group of people were discriminated against due to a trait which was innate. (skin color, height, sex, intelligence, physical ability, handedness, etc.) Explain what happened and the outcome.  Are things different now?  Why or why not?  Relate this to the Scout Oath and Scout Law. (Put this in Citizenship in the Nation.)

    - Research an event or situation in US history where a person or group of people were discriminated against due to a characteristic which was acquired.  (such as religion, language, culture, political affiliation, education, economic status, etc.)   Explain what happened and the outcome.  Are things different now?  Why or why not?  Relate this to the Scout Oath and Scout Law. (Put this in Citizenship in the Nation.)

    - Research an event or situation world history (excluding the US) where a person or group of people were discriminated against due to a trait which was innate. (skin color, height, sex, intelligence, physical ability, handedness, etc.) Explain what happened and the outcome.  Are things different now?  Why or why not?  Relate this to the Scout Oath and Scout Law. (Put this in Citizenship in the World.)

    - Research an event or situation in world history (excluding the US) where a person or group of people were discriminated against due to a characteristic which was acquired.  (such as religion, language, culture, political affiliation, education, economic status, etc.)   Explain what happened and the outcome.  Are things different now?  Why or why not?  Relate this to the Scout Oath and Scout Law. (Put this in Citizenship in the World.)

    Until we start viewing people as unique and individual creations, we will never reach an egalitarian society.  Never.  (For example, race is a social construct, and has no basis in the science of genetics.  And as long as we "focus" on it, it will be to our detriment.)

     

    • Upvote 3
  13. 3 hours ago, RichardB said:

    Oh, also - how can and asked and answered question in 2019 still be under debate?   

     

    Unsatisfactory.

    Several observations:

    1.  In reviewing the 2019 posts and your responses, you never answer the question at hand.  You simply post a definition of "overnight" which in no way enlightens the questioning audience. (And you have repeated that here.)

    2.  You post a link to an instructor syllabus which is now defunct, therefore invalid to answer the question.

    3.  There are 72 instances of the word "overnight" in the currently available BALOO manual (2017 printing, see link).  I reviewed each of them, and there is no clarification that a single night experience is dictated.  Your previous post (at least the info in the link) seems to point to a 2018 version of the syllabus, so I dug up a copy of that too by searching for the pub number with "18" in it the identifier.  (links to both are here:)

    https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/510-033(17)baloo.pdf

    https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/510-03318-BALOO_web_v2.pdf

    There are 78 instances of "overnighter" in the 2018 syllabus.  Again, nothing limiting it to a single night in the context of any of the instruction.

    Appendix MM simply lists a "Sample Pack Camping Schedule" for a one night excursion.  Nowhere is there a prescription that limits packs to this type of schedule.  Could you see how, in a 204-page syllabus, where this is only potentially  intimated on a one-page "sample", and not definitively spelled out anywhere else in the text, that this policy of a "single night camping trip limitation"  is puzzling to anyone? 

    BTW, BOTH are posted on the official BSA website.  See notes above relating to multiple versions of policy documents.  Same condemnation applies here.  (Also, when you Google "BALOO Syllabus"  the number one return is the 2017 link.  Nowhere in those search returns is a hit on the 2018 syllabus.  Even when you search "BALOO Syllabus 2018" you get no valid hits. You have to search specifically for "510-03318" to get that version.  So, what do you think the average Cub Leader out there is gonna get in their searches?)

    4.  Even your lack of a direct answer in this thread is puzzling.  Are you deliberately trying to be ambiguous?

    So, please answer this question directly:

    Is it National BSA policy that Cub Scout pack overnight experiences are limited to one single night only?

    • Thanks 2
  14. It was only a matter of time before the pot was stirred again 😛

    BTW, slide 34:

    15. How will you make sure that the merit badge is achieving its objectives? Like all BSA programs, we will continuously evaluate and improve the Citizenship in Society merit badge based on feedback shared by those within the Scouting program.

    Anybody been asked for any feedback?  Anyone see an avenue mentioned in the slide show to provide feedback?

    https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/diversity_equity_and_inclusion/Citizenship-in-Society-Merit-Badge-Counselor-Guide-2021.pdf

    P.S.  They don't care about your feedback...

    • Upvote 2
  15. 19 hours ago, RichardB said:

     

    Cub Packs or Webelos / AOL Dens can organize Overnight activities, at council designated locations, with a BALOO trained leader.  This is neither a new nor changed age appropriate requirement.    It does appear that the intent of overnight, included in BALOO training: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/510-03318-BALOO_web_v2.pdf, on the Cub Scout Page:   https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/activities/cub-scout-camping/  has been clarified by this update.  It's been in place decades.   

    Councils can run longer Cub Scout camping following the National Camp Accreditation Standards.   But units remain limited to overnight opportunities.  Perhaps this is the source of confusion.  

    Please pass some messages to the G2SS writing team:

    1.  Hire a good communicator.

    2.  Don't write so that you can be understood; write so that you can't be misunderstood.  (Taft)  see @scoutldr post above, for example.

    3.  Send your draft policies to someone outside the National organization, preferably to someone that your policies will affect (and who has to comply with them).  Let them read them and then (in a verbal conversation) have them tell you what they read in their own words with some concrete examples of impact to their unit operations.  If they cannot explain it back to you logically and apply your policy correctly, as you intend it, then you have missed the mark.  Try again. 

    4.  Never have two different versions of your policies on the official BSA page.  Currently, the download version is still the Feb 2022 version, versus the online version, which is the (now) 2023 version.  Although the caveat about this is on the website, this is unprofessional, and the practice should end.  These two official sources should (must??) always be synchronized.  It is not difficult to update the pdf and post the new version for download.

     

    • Upvote 1
  16. 1 hour ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

    If you know, you know.  If you don't, you won't.

    I am working through this with a small group of Scouts now (9th graders).  When we are done, I am going to ask them what their opinion is on the badge, and whether this was value-added for them.  I'll let you know...

    I will say, in our first session, they were very guarded in their views, but when they began to share their ideas and research on the definitions, and each relayed what they had heard from friends, parents, teachers, and media, and how they thought much of this was unneeded in a merit badge.  They came to some great consensus on what things "should mean"  (their words, and I loved 'em).  The most discussions centered around different ideas and examples of "identities," "equity," and "discrimination" and how they relate to Oath and Law.

      When they were relating the definitions to the Scout Oath and Law, one Scout even said something like (I'm paraphrasing), "it seems like a knee jerk reaction to have this badge to tell us about who we already are."

    For their second and third sessions, I had challenged them to come up with different examples for requirement 2.  Here are the examples they came up with on their own and  researched:

    - Truman and his decision to drop the bomb (wow)

    - Washington and his decision to commit treason against the King of England (wow)

    - Hoover and his orders against the Bonus Army (a negative example... wow)

    - Lincoln and the moral dilemma/decisions he faced on slavery (wow)

    - Warrant Officer Hugh Clowers Thompson, Jr. and his intervention in, and reporting of, the My Lai massacre (wow)

    I had asked them not only to tell about the person and the decision, but to really dig into "...options that leader had, why you believe they chose their final course of action, and the outcome of that action"

    After each Scout spoke, the others would ask questions about the person/decision , and many would look up the event and read a little about it (about 5-10 minutes) and share their thoughts (I did not require this... they asked to do it.)   

    They generally agreed on a few things so far:

    1)  It is easier to judge someone through the lens of history.  But it is important to place yourself in their shoes to genuinely get an understanding of the times, circumstances, and troubles they faced.  (Then we had a discussion about empathy for people living right now as they try to make ethical decisions, and understanding what set of values guide them...)

    2)  This stuff ought to be in the other Citizenship badges. (Their words, not mine...)

    3) Everyone in our community is not on the same sheet of music when talking about the definitions.  They mean different things to different people, and that causes confusion for them. (Their observations, not mine...)

    4)  They feel are being told "what to think" on some of these things, and they appreciate exploring them together without judgement or "correction".  They appreciate being given the opportunity to research, discuss, talk, think, and find out "how to think" about these things, but that isn't directly addressed in the merit badge.

    5)  It is OK to hold a different view on the decision someone made, based on your values (Scout Oath and Law).  For example, they were about evenly divided in their views on Truman and his decision to drop the bomb... 

    Overall, I think what their initial dive into this badge shows is that our education system and our communities are not fostering critical thinking skills, rhetoric, debate, and ethics.  And that they are genuinely afraid of expressing or exploring different ideas because they get chastised for thoughtcrime (my word (well, Orwell's), not theirs) at school and, yes, at home.  I told them that is the value of free speech, to thoroughly test ideas, and to seek guidance and counseling from their parents if anything we discuss brings up further questions.

    More to follow...

     

    • Upvote 2
  17. 14 hours ago, Delphinus said:

    And meanwhile, parents are urged to get out there and sell, sell, sell (I hear this in Randolph and Mortimer Duke's voices) more popcorn. The Pack we used to be in heavily urged us to sell popcorn rather than just pay our dues. The "Popcorn Colonel" let slip last year that ~40% of the sale proceeds go to the Pack and ~30% go to the council. So selling $750 to cover all of the $225 dues actually meant that Pack got $300 from all that free labor. Then, we always had the hard sell of "Friends of Scouting" at the Blue & Gold each year to look forward to. Apparently, Packs that schedule that "presentation" get a streamer to put on their flag. 

    https://youtu.be/i2uu6NF2inY

     

    • Upvote 1
  18. 27 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

    I'm a parent of a Lion and will be experiencing FOS for the first time this Spring. For the more tenured volunteers, can I ask a few questions?

    • I have an FOS flyer from my youth asking for $129 (the cost to support 1 scout for 1 year). Mentally, I was preparing to make a donation of around $200. Now I see the campaign is asking for $401 (the cost to support 1 scout for 1 year in 2023). What the heck happened there?
    • I assume the council has an FOS fundraising goal. Does that goal get pushed down to the districts and the unit level? If so, does that mean every unit has an FOS goal? What happens if the unit doesn't hit the goal? Are they assessed a lump sum?

    I recommend you hold on to your money, and give it in increments.

    Give an increment (say $25) to the council every time you have a positive interaction with a paid professional.

    Every time you have a positive interaction with a volunteer from another unit, give it to that unit.

    I'd love to see you post here about these incremental gifts.  Let's see where Scouting is really happening.

    • Thanks 1
    • Upvote 1
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