InquisitiveScouter

Just now, Calion said:

Let’s go back to my original problem:

 

There is no prescribed "when or how."

That's why I said "Yes" to all your presented situations and all those of the other posters.

The original problem is actually only this:  Your patrols are not doing patrol yells.

Now, for your Scouts, that may not be an actual problem, because they could think it is goofy, stupid, and unnecessary.

But, I would argue, patrol yells are fundamental to the Patrol Method.

Does your SPL see the need for Patrol Yells?  If not, start there.

If your SPL agrees they should be done, then just challenge him to find a way to implement.

This is not really something for you to solve for them.

25 minutes ago, RichardB said:

The following medical contraindications are based on BSA operational considerations and may be more conservative than those listed in the “Diving Medical Guidance to the Physician.”

Emphasis added above.  

Yes I know those, but that did not really address the question.

Is a physician signature required on the agency form for all BSA SCUBA participants, whether the agency requires it or not?

That is, if a participant has NO medical contraindications, must they still be cleared by a physician, with a signature on the agency form?

@RichardB, the current online version (Feb 2023) (and Feb 2022 download version) incorporated a change in BSA SCUBA Policy, Medical Contraindications section.

Currently, prior to doing SCUBA events, each participant must complete the specific dive agency's medical form with the following additional instruction.  "The BSA requires review and approval of the completed form by a physician."

The last time we conducted a SCUBA event, the 2019 policy applied, and it was written thus: "The BSA requires review and approval of the completed form by a physician even if the scuba agency itself does not require physician approval." (emphasis added)

All SCUBA agency forms have the diver fill out a more detailed questionnaire (than BSA AHMR covers), but, if there are no "contraindications", then these agencies themselves say on their forms that no doctor signature is required.  I have attached the PADI form as an example.

Under the questions, it says,

"If you answered NO to all 10 questions above, a medical evaluation is not required. Please read and agree to the participant statement below by signing and dating it." (emphasis added)

Even under the old policy, the Summer Camp our Scouts attended for SCUBA did not enforce the 2019 BSA policy requiring the physician signature.  (We did at our unit level, but divers from other units did not have a physician's signature.  I pointed this out to the Camp Director (a professional), but he told me he wasn't going to enforce it because the commercial vendor conducting the SCUBA at the camp did not require it.  When I filled out our camp survey, I documented this for their council review process, but never heard anything of it afterward.)

As I read the current policy, it still seems BSA wants a physician's clearance for all participants. (That is, to have page 3 signed by the provider, regardless of medical status.) So, why eliminate the "...even if the scuba agency itself does not require physician approval." which seemed much more clear?

Can you shed any light on this?? Am I interpreting the update incorrectly?

P.S.  Before our last event, I spent almost an hour on the phone with the SCUBA policy expert at Sea Base clarifying the 2019 requirements for diver to instructor & certified-adult ratios (which is clarified better in the newer policies.)

10346E_Diver_Medical_Form.pdf

13 minutes ago, jcousino said:

to part of that question my state does not treat them as motorized vehicles until they are greater than 750 watt. So are much greater

OK, I can see where that might need clarifying, then.

Just learned today that E-bikes are now specifically prohibited.  I guess BSA had that question posed several times, even though it is obviously a "motorized vehicle."

February 2023 version, Prohibited Activities, Item 6 (no page available yet, as updated pdf is not posted for download):

6.  Motorized vehicles used as program or activities—including all-terrain vehicles (ATVs), off-road vehicles, motorized personal watercraft (PWC), snowmobiles, E-Bikes and motorized speed events (exceptions: council-approved ATV and PWC programs that comply with National Camp Accreditation Program [NCAP] standards; go-karting conducted at a commercial facility that provides equipment and supervision of cart operation; youth completing the Motorboating merit badge)

This specific prohibition was not listed in the Feb 2022 download version (still available at the pdf link online.)

There are a lot of different threads relating to specific policies or activities discussed in the Guide to Safe Scouting.  As this is a fundamental document in BSA literature, I thought we might have a thread with just that title.  @John-in-KC had created some threads with the dated versions, but I think it might be useful to have an enduring topic with all things "Guide to Safe Scouting."  Please include in your posts the version date, section, and page for reference, so folks may easily find source info on their own.

From time to time, I review the G2SS, and I always seem to find something new that I had not noticed before, that might also be useful to others.  I intend to post those here instead of in new threads...

9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Folks,

Dopes anyone know anything about the "special pathway to Eagle Scout for those whose journey was interrupted during their time in Scouting?" I have a Scouter who is a CSA survivor, and quit after being assaulted. He was not involved in the lawsuit as he did not beleive BSA was liable and his assailant has been dead a while now.

 

First I heard of it also.

Was part of BSA PR releases yesterday: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-boy-scouts-of-america-bsa-announces-confirmation-of-plan-of-reorganization-and-emergence-from-chapter-11-bankruptcy-to-equitably-compensate-survivors-while-ensuring-scouting-continues-across-the-country-301802086.html

1 hour ago, Calion said:

Okay, these are good ideas, but when the patrols give their yells when forming up, just when and how do they do it? What does the SPL say to trigger these yells? Are they all done at the same time?

YES!  To all the above, and more!

Would you believe I actually had a professional Scouter once tell me I had "too much Scout spirit"???   Could have knocked me over with a feather 😜 

2 hours ago, Tron said:

don't let "the way we always did it" or "historically" restrict your packs function and form

Or, "the way I was taught..."

This mindset is death to any organization.

Better yet, "What does the book say?", and "What makes sense?", and "Why not?" (versus "Why?")

10 minutes ago, Tron said:

Also helps if every patrol has a patrol yell

If they don't have a yell, then they are not a patrol.  It is part of the Patrol Method.

Scout Handbook, page 26:

"Patrols have yells, too.  If your patrol is named for an animal, you can use that animal's sound - the howl of a wolf, for example, or the hoot of an howl.  Or your patrol might decide on some other shout that identifies it.  Members can give the patrol yell whenever they do well in a troop competition or reach an important goal, and even when they're ready to chow down on a camp meal."

(Reading between the lines... not optional...)

Scout rank requirements:

3b. Become familiar with your patrol name, emblem, flag, and yell. Explain how these items create patrol spirit.

National Honor Patrol Award requirements:

1. Have a patrol name, flag, and yell. Put the patrol design on equipment and use the patrol yell. Keep patrol records up-to-date.

This is the way.

36 minutes ago, SSScout said:

NONE of them could say what the last two stars represented. Or when.... 

We... are... doomed...

We do it at all meeting openings and whenever we gather for an activity.

The adults have a "Patrol Yell" also...

"Ask your Patrol Leader!!!

Transferring is no cost.  Do you know of another good unit nearby?

Greetings @ASMPeter!  And welcome to the forum!

Congratulations to your daughter on these impressive achievements!  And I know what it takes as a parent to guide them on their road to these recognitions, so good on you, too!

Congratulations also on your first post stirring up the old hornet's nest!  I love it.

You'll find here two kinds of folks:   the letter of the law, and the spirit of law.  The letter of the law folks will tell you, NO!, if it isn't written in the Guide to Awards and Insignia, then you are wrong to do it.

The spirit of the law folks, are more aligned with the thinking you have already displayed with that simple question:  If a Scout can wear her Gold Award pin on the Venturing uniform, then can she wear it on her Scouts, BSA uniform?

I agree with your premise that this is most likely an oversight in editing to update publications to accommodate changes in membership policies.

If you were to push this up the chain to National for adjudication, you'd most likely never get an answer, as this is not really a big issue for them.  They'll focus on other things.

If you read further in the G2AI, you'll see this:

Awards From Other Scouting Associations Scouters occasionally receive awards from Scouting associations of other nations, and it is important that they know how these awards should be worn. This does not include jamboree patches. Following are the regulations for wearing such awards: 1. They are always worn when visiting the country whose Scouting association presented the award or when attending a meeting or function attended by Scouters from that country. 2. Medals awarded by other associations are worn above the left breast pocket.

Based on the spirit of that excerpt also (because it applies to Scouters vs Scouts), IMO, she could wear the pin on her Scouts BSA uniform.  This is a "Medal awarded by other association"

However, she should not wear the faux knot from the 29 Jan 2020 post, as that is not a BSA supply division knot created to recognize that specific achievement.

Although program reciprocity would be nice, what the GSUSA allows is irrelevant to your question.

To expand the discussion, the BSA ought to allow the wearing of Congressional Award and Duke of Edinburgh award also.

Thanks for asking the question and being willing to endure the down arrows you'll get.

Happy Scouting!

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

my friends had no idea what garlic was for

And yet, you named them "friends"... the horror 😛 LOL

19 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I don't have much experience with either BSA councils or national yet, but neither have responded to emails I've sent requesting information, offering help, or making requests other than when a CC started the conversation.

Maybe they're busy. Maybe not. Either way it's not clear that they are reachable.

Email them telling them you want to know how to donate $1000.  They'll get back to you really fast 😜

Of course, when they get back to you, you then ask your questions.  When they ask about the money, just say, "Oh, I wanted to know HOW to make a donation so, in the future, if I should decide to do so, I'll know how.   Thanks!"

Here's what we really need.  Invoking Murphy's Laws of Combat, #2:  If it looks stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid 😜 

I just hope the brim is as wide as the old BSA Expedition Hat  I do like that is is oiled cloth, versus the old felt one.  That felt hat is hot in the summer, and the dye would bleed out when it got wet or sweaty.  Maybe the new one will be a bit cooler as well.

4 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

My advice...save yourself a lot of work and money.  Kraft Mac and cheese, poptarts and peanut butter/jelly on white bread with no crust, and juice boxes.  Don't expect them to eat a balanced meal of "adult" food.  That's not what happens at home.  (Observations of my grandkids)

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/childhood.html

Best when taught by older Scouts.

If older Scouts or an adult do it, just like everything else, use EDGE.  (Which means they see one demonstrated before having to do it.)  Too many times I see this turned into TWGL-EDGE  (pronounced Twiggle-Edge) Tell, Watch, Gasp, Laugh, then realize you need to do EDGE. 

Welcome to the forum!!

1 hour ago, HethSlaton said:

but what is the best way to allow the 10-11 year old crossovers do this safely as well as disposal of the grease too afterwards?

Teach them... 😜 

Some notes that will definitely raise some hackles around here... enjoy the discussion.

1.  You can select meats that have lower fat content, or all already cooked, and therefore produce less grease.  They are more expensive.  Think 93% lean ground beef instead of 85% lean.  Think brown and serve sausage patties or links.  (Once they master these, they can move on to raw meats...)  Or, here's a wild idea... teach them about tofu!!

2.  For their first few trips, recommend you avoid the dreaded three... pancakes, bacon, and scrambled eggs.  (Let the fights begin...)  Messy, more messy, and most messy.  Nothing wrong with a mess 😛, but cleanup is frustrating, and they will not get it right.  So then what do you do... make them do it again?  And then they won't get it right the second time... So then what do you do???

3.  If you have access to a kitchen, make a patrol meeting of it, and have them cook and eat one of the meals at home before preparing the exact same meal  in the woods.  And have them do the clean-up too!! (No automatic dishwasher. ) (Most will NEVER have cooked at home, or hand-washed dishes, so having them do it in the woods for the first time, under more austere conditions, is a set up for frustration and disappointment all around.)  If possible, once cooked in the kitchen, cook the meal under controlled conditions outdoors, making that the MAIN activity.  Think a day activity versus camping out.  

4.  Teach them that lower heat is better.  Scouts will think that they want to get it done fast, so turn up the heat!!!  (Slow is smooth; smooth is fast) Teach them the second they see oil or grease smoking, they must remove the pan from the stove!  Most will not plan ahead for this, so teach them to have mitts on hand, and a place to put a hot pan.  Then, adjust the heat on the stove, and return the pan.

5.  Start saving some empty tin cans from your kitchen to bring camping.  Put a paper towel or two in the can to absorb some grease/oil and keep it from sloshing around.  Have Scouts practice boiling some water in the frying pan, and then pouring it in the can slowly.  If they can pour hot water without spilling, they can pour grease. (Let grease cool for a bit before pouring, unless needed to make cooking safer while in progress; but don't let it solidify.  If it does, heat it up slightly to help pouring out.)  Now, you can save the metal grease can, and put it on the fire later as a demonstration of what happens when grease catches on fire (let more fights begin!!!).  When the fire burns out, retrieve the tin can and re-use.  (Do not do this with aluminum.)  For noobies, a bigger can is better, if you can get your hands on one.  (Can you get a #10??)  This could be part of their patrol gear.

6.  If you are attacked by the Leave No Trace cultists, then you can just put the cooled grease can in the garbage.  (Wanna get really down in the weeds?  Use it to make soap!!  There's a million videos on this, and it is a great science project!))

Hope these help... 

8 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Easy to get close when you pull $2.5m from an endowment.

Another way to read ...  The council plans to be short $2.5m this year.

Perhaps the question is ... how much do you plan the endowment to grow this year?  How much did it grow last year?  Year before?  

How big is the C10 endowment?  Inquiring minds want to know...

4 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I was told that because I want the Troop to operate like its designed and we need to call out poor behavior I should maybe look for a ROTC program or something.

Who told you this?  One person or multiple?  SM or other?  Do other parents/leaders in the Troop feel as you do?

15 minutes ago, cmd said:

Having BSA take over SOAR and make it free to units would have broken it the same way the ScoutBook lost functionality after BSA took over.  Between trying to adapt it to fit with their other software and the inherent issues of trying to scale up a small private app to serve the entire nation, it does so much less than it did back when we briefly paid for it.

Respectfully disagree... Scoutbook has more functionality now than when it was free.  I used it extensively then, and use it extensively now.

It runs even better with the Scoutbook Feature Assistant add-on (which Gary Feutz keeps up) from the Goggle Play Store.

I do agree that Scoutbook support by BSA is sorely lacking.  It is mostly volunteers (Scoutbook User Advisory Council) who assist with day to day problems.  BSA definitely lost a LOT of credibility in my book when they dumped user support, and expected the Registrars to answer peoples questions about Scoutbook (with no training at all, if you can believe it.)

BSA still runs programming changes, and they seem to move slightly faster than glacial speed.  Slightly 😜 

28 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Any recommendations regarding tracking troop finances?  Scout accounts, payments for activities, etc., troop checks written and deposits made? Donations, and fundraisers? Thanks. (Not concerned with any other aspects of the software.

Scoutbook has decent high level account tracking.  If done correctly, the balance matches what's actually in the bank account.

For fine detail, like tracking fundraiser amounts, we use Excel spreadsheets stored on the Troop Google Drive.  Once all the fine detail accounting is done there by the Fundraiser Chair, the Troop Treasurer makes entries into each Scout account in Scoutbook.