InquisitiveScouter

4 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Sorry. I confused it with IOLS. The online ILST wasn’t that great, IMHO. The Scouts would benefit from older Scouts presenting. 

The content was fine.  Agree that Scouts would benefit from older Scouts presenting the material.  Shoulda left it up to provide alternate avenue for training as @HashTagScouts points out.

22 minutes ago, malraux said:

It's been gone for at least a year. I think it was primarily a pandemic adaption.

Ok, but this is something BSA paid money to develop.  All sunk cost once deployed. Probably no cost to maintain.  In fact, they probably had to pay to have it taken down.  At least least leave it in place until syllabus changes made it obsolete.

Again, the content was good.  I went through the courses myself, to gauge the value before an in-person class.

I'm really shaking my head on this one...  less options for training really isn't a good solution.

I had about 15 Scouts do it before an in-person ILST and the feedback was entirely positive.

Courses SCO_1600 thru SCO_1605??

Cannot find them on https://training.scouting.org/home

The content was fine, and was a great lead-in to an in-person ILST.

Anyone know why they took it off the catalog??

GGGRRRRRRR

https://discussions.scouting.org/t/ilst-training-module/264158

30 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

 

When I see the word “vet” I think of a process, “vetting.”  Such as a checklist of sources to consult, documents to gather (where would a mere COR obtain pertinent records?), a review the application and other pertinent records, questions to ask, perhaps other unit leaders to be consulted if issues arise.  Then, make a record, for the applicant’s file, so as to be able to document the steps taken and the care shown in making the decision to accept an applicant as a unit leader, or at least as a registered adult. And if an adverse decision is made, is the applicant entitled to a hearing of some sort?

 Then, being in the nature of a personnel file, they need to be secured, and under “eyes only” access.  And when the COR moves on, the files need to be transitioned their successor. How long are the files to be kept?  In some states with lenient statutes of limitation, perhaps decades.

 I have never heard word one from any scouters in my decades of being involved in scouting at many levels of a formal vetting process.  Do any units conduct a formal vetting process?  And what do they do routinely? And what do they do if an issue arises?  Consult with other unit leaders?  Seek additional information?  Meet with the applicant and discuss the issue?

 Most adult leader applicants are parents of scouts who attend our sponsoring school.  They are seen at sports events and scouting events, school activities, may serve as coaches, attend church, etc.  They may have two or three children who have followed one another into the program.  They are seen and have interacted with the COR and other unit adults anywhere from 1 to 10 years.  They are largely known by reputation.

 A few adults do fall into the class of being a parent of a first grader, their first child in school.  Little may be known about their reputation.  And if they are a recent move to the school district, there has been little chance to develop a reputation.  The council’s criminal background check is the principal vetting that is done.

 The remaining class of adult leaders are those whose children have aged out and they continue on.  Their reputations have been built over decades with the unit.  I include grandparents of scouts also in this class.

 My concern is that National, by way of the COR’s certificate on the Adult Application, attempts to push the responsibility for vetting adults onto the Chartering Organization and its COR, both having little effective way to do a proper job of it.  And as we have seen in the bankruptcy, Chartering Organizations are defending against millions of dollars of claims, and arguably, largely because of the Chartering Organizations’ responsibility for vetting adult leaders. I don’t recall a direct claim against a Chartering Organization Representative, the individual, but it is a logical extension of the principle, as the COR did sign and approve the adult’s application.

Our COR calls the references, and meets with the applicant to discuss the application and any flags raised in the responses.  Here in PA, you must have three background checks done to volunteer.  Having those is extremely helpful.

We keep a copy of the paperwork.

Have a buddy in the back of the room hold up a yellow piece of construction paper when you have two minutes left.  Red with one minute left.  Skull and crossbones (white chalk drawing on a black piece of construction paper) when you are overtime. 

Costs about $0.25? for as long as the paper lasts 😜

Lo-tech, easily portable, easily modified if you don't have construction paper, fosters teamwork between speaker and support, and makes sure at least one person is paying attention to something!!

10 hours ago, TwoColdCamper said:

“Action Changes Things”

I used to work for General Mattis.  And he had a standing order... "Maintain a bias for action."

https://techinterview.coach/blog/amazons-bias-for-action-how-to-ace-this-leadership-principle/

11 hours ago, SSScout said:

You want cinnamummm in your cafe?

Heck no!

But a few ashes from the fire are just fine 😜

8 hours ago, Armymutt said:

The problem is, that one isn't a Scout if one isn't registered, correct?  We don't charge admission to the B&G.  The costs are in the dues that everyone is supposed to pay.  This family didn't pay dues at all this academic year, even when they were registered.  I don't think they are going to pay the $90 in dues and $156 in registration fees at the B&G.  We have been trying to get in contact with them for four months with no response.  They obviously had no intention of joining the Pack when they showed up on the last day for the AOL den to meet.  The event was not open to the general public, and I'd argue that someone not registered in the BSA qualifies as the general public.  At this point, they are the problem of whatever troop they go to.  Let them deal with the dishonesty.  Between the free ride they were getting before I turned the Pack around and got it out of bankruptcy and the claim of earning the AOL despite not attending a den meeting since Oct, I've had it with them.  They have been a massive drain on morale for much of the Pack, to the point that parents have complained to me about it.

Dealing with "the usual suspects" is always a pain.

Although it is past now, and we do not have all the details and nuances of the situation, it seems the adults in that family were a thorn in your side for some time.  And them showing up out-of-the-blue without having participated in the past few months, paid their way, being incommunicado, and expecting you to award their son an AOL is particularly annoying.

I can definitely empathize with the way you felt and with your desires to oust them.  The parents, that is.

It can helpful to mentally separate the parents from the Scouts.  The young ones probably had no idea what was going on, and they have probably missed out because of the bad decisions or poor time management (whatever you want to call it) of their parents.  And, from the limited details we have, it seems they will continue to have a bad example from their parents on how to interact with others in a group.

If only there was a way this could have been "headed off at the pass", before the B&G incident... 

4 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

And to give an idea of how bad at this BSA is, or at least how dysfunctional the relationship between National and Councils is, read that C10 memo again:

1. C10 did not have the heads up this was coming so they could already have that product developed and on the shelf waiting, which would have benefited both the Scouts they serve and their own bottom line.
2. Like us, and contrary to what he have been told, C10 had no idea what any of this meant and also believes this policy to be new. Read their language (emphasis added):

• The Circle Ten Council has been reviewing this new information and seeking clarification.
• Through our investigation, we have determined that a “short-term camp”...

 

 

But, wait!  Wasn't all this asked and answered for them back in 2019 via Appendix MM in the 204 page BALOO instructor syallbus buried in the bowels of BSA's website servers?

LOL

You just cannot make this stuff up.

38 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am the CC for two Troops.  Recently I have been checking on our leadership training and found that a few Committee Members and the SM have not completed their Position Specific Training, SM after a year hasn't even attempted.  

So, the I guess guideline is that this training is supposed to be completed within 30 days of the application being accepted or something to that effect.

 

I am going to bring this up in the next Committee Meeting and strongly suggest everyone gets caught up on the required training for their position.  I am even going to give 30 days get it done.  What do we, the Committee do if these leaders blow it off and laugh while saying they just aren't gonna do it?

 

Why bother with the training?  Because it will help you deliver the best program for your Scouts.  Try to appeal to them that way.  Threats and ultimata in a volunteer organization will never accomplish your ends...

What will you do?  That depends... do you have someone to replace them who is willing to take the training??  (You do not have to be in a position to accomplish the training... if you have someone who wants the position, ask them to complete the training first to show their commitment, then put them in the position.  If only the world was that simple, right?) 

"Enforcement" varies council to council.  Ours says they are like @qwazse's but they have never enforced it.  Honestly, they cannot afford to.  Many units are barely hanging on with the minimum leaders on the charter.  (Scouting according to BSA policies is a complex undertaking.)

The council (and possibly your unit) is better off with an untrained leader, than with no leader in the position at all.  Choose wisely, and best of luck.

Welcome!

On 1/12/2023 at 2:11 PM, JesseMills said:

Howdy all,

I’m just getting plugged in here so I have the resources of this forum to tap when need be!  I scouted long long ago and then worked as a church choir director for awhile concurrently with teaching band & picking up music theatre gigs as a pit musician.  Sadly, the stress of constantly looking for new work got to me and I “went corporate” to be a project manager.  One year in, I found myself missing doing something more meaningful than doing corporate work, so I’m meeting with my local council next week to see how all the skills I developed can be brought to helping out the next generation!  I’m definitely hoping to at least be an MBC (music & theatre among others) and am open to whatever the council says they’re in need of.

Hello again, and happy to have a place to look up y’all’s collective wisdom and discussions!

Jesse, more than anything, your council needs adult leaders who will take Scouts camping and deliver the promise of adventure at the unit level.  This is the heart of Scouting.

If you do not have the heart to take them into the woods, then be an active committee member for a unit, and provide administrative support for those who do take on the task of outdoor adventure.  Anything you can do to lighten their load will help them deliver more adventure for the youth.   Examples include managing all the Troop medical forms, helping to mentor a youth in a support role (like Webmaster, Historian, Librarian, etc.), being a reliable member of Boards of Review, managing adult training for the unit, etc., etc.

And, you should ALWAYS be a Merit Badge Counselor. 😛 

If you believe you cannot fill any of those unit roles, post again for other ideas... 

Welcome!

If you had a parent signed application back then (even if the parent held on to it before giving it back to you) then you have what I have heard two different registrars refer to as "intent to join."  (I don't know if this is some official registrar term or not.)

If the application was dated three months ago, then the registrar could back date the registration to that date, and charge the unit the commensurate back-dated fees.  Then, all activities since that time are creditable.

Only requirements completed on or after the joining date are creditable.

This WILL be a potential problem down the road.  Make sure all ranks, badges, etc., approved in the system show a date on or after joining date.  This condition is an automatic kick-back on an Eagle Scout application.

That is the "letter of the law" answer.

The "spirit of the law" answer is what @MikeS72 @SiouxRanger@mrjohns2 are about... give the Scout credit, and adjust dates as necessary, if the registrar has already entered a conflicting joining date (after your three months) in the system.

On 2/25/2023 at 12:57 PM, SiouxRanger said:

Our unit, in my experience, has never formally "vetted" anyone.  If an issue with respect to some adult is noticed, the leadership generally discusses it and formulates a plan to address it.

All that background stuff printed on the adult application is information provided for the CO to vet (and make a decision whether to accept or deny) the person.

See the blurb above the CO signature block.  "APPROVALS FOR UNIT ADULTS: I have reviewed this application and the responses to any questions answered “Yes,” and have made any follow-up inquiries necessary to be satisfied that the applicant possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities to be an adult leader in the BSA."

Your CO and unit should really be exercising "due diligence" in vetting people. 

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

@MattR"As others have said, what's that much different between one night and two?"     One? 😂

 

Same :   Why can't MBCs go camping with a troop and need to be a paying volunteer?    They have the same YPT and other required clearances as a paying volunteer.     Cash? 😏

The official answer is : MBCs are not vetted by your CO/COR.  Only unit registered adults (CO approved) are supposed to be camping with your unit.

That is why inter-unit events are to be cleared by the council.

Now, do you think the council really does anything for these inter-unit events, other than tacking on a fee?

And if you could get your CO to approve the MBC, you ought be good to go.  But I'd get that in writing, just to have your bases covered.

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

We created a 501c3 a couple of years ago. We are about as small as you can get with <$200 of expenses and no donations for the first year or 2. When a volunteer’s employer checked recently, we were on the list! That was our first real donation. It does have to be a registered 501c3. Many churches aren’t since they are exempt from the paperwork if they are a member of a larger denomination that is. So, the larger denomination would be in the list, but not the unit. 

Corporate finance office usually just has to check that the EIN is a valid 501c3 with IRS.  It takes a few keystrokes...

1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am not sure its that easy.  When they let her do her donations, there is a website with approved charities to choose from.  If its not on that list, they won't match.

You know... a corporate thing.

So, she checked to see if your CO was on the list??

35 minutes ago, Alec27 said:

Morning All, 

Where can I find the info about what awards my troop leaders currently hold, such as award knots, service pins, recognitions, etc.  One of my Scouters, a man that has been with our Troop for almost 2 decades is a very modest gentleman.  He has served as SM, ASM, UAC, CC, COR and only wears the bare minimum on his Class A.  I'm trying to figure out if he has been awarded things in the past and is just too modest to wear them on his uniform, or maybe nobody over the years nominated him for anything through the council.  If the ladder is the case, I'd really love to put him in for the awards he rightfully should have.  Is there a way that I can see what awards or recognitions he has earned / been given somewhere in my.scouting, or SB or somewhere else.  I have pretty good access to those platforms as a Troop Admin and UAC.  Thank You All !  

You must call your Council Registrar to ask this info.  The Registrar has access to all recorded adult awards.

Depending on how you sell it (  ) your Registrar might not provide the info directly (like a list).  That is, for example, you may only be able to ask, "Does our Unit Leader have the "Award of Merit'"?  The Registrar may tell you Yes or No, and then you can move forward on that info.

In fact, that is the course I would recommend... Pick an award you think your leader qualifies for 

https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/what-cub-scouts-earn/adult-awards-and-recognition/

Scouter's Training Award

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Scouters-Training-Award-for-Scout-BSA-Leaders.pdf

Scoutmaster's Key

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/511-054_WB.pdf

Unit Leader Award of Merit

https://www.scouting.org/programs/venturing/venturing-awards-and-advancement/leadership/unit-leader-award-of-merit/

District Award of Merit

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33720.pdf

etc, etc, etc

Be advised, your leader has been around long enough that he may have an award already, but it is not recorded.  That's OK!  Recognize him again, and work with the Registrar to make sure it is recorded!! 

Or, you could pick an award, and ask him if he has it.  If he says yes, work with them to figure out an award date and ask the Registrar to put it in his record.

Thank you for doing this!!

Just now, malraux said:

As per that link, if overnight always meant a single night, then multi-day backpacking trips are against the g2ss.

Spot on!

17 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Next year, have your wife's company make the donation to your CO.  Coordinate with your CO ahead of time to ask about this and ask for the funds to be passed on to the Troop.

This is perfectly fine, but your council will be livid.

@5thGenTexan, to further clarify, you need to coordinate that with your CO because you need their EIN (and address and contact info) to provide to your wife's company.  The company needs that info to make the donation, and for tax reporting purposes.

Also, ask your wife to find out how the company makes the donation.  If by paper check, mailed, then that's probably all the info you need.  If they do electronic deposit, then you might be able to have them send it directly to your unit bank account by providing ABA Routing and Account numbers.

On 10/10/2019 at 3:54 PM, RichardB said:

Are you referring to this chart??

It does not clarify.  The stipulation that Scouts, BSA may have "Weekend Campouts" is distinguished from the "Pack Overnighters" only in that Pack events must be at "Council-Designated Locations Only".  Throw in the Family Camping for Webelos Scouts block, and it only adds to this confusion.

Here is the official link to the chart, BTW:

 https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-686.pdf

That document has no links in G2SS pointing to it, that I can find.  (Would someone else check this, please?)

The only document I can see linked from G2SS is this one:

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf

Which, again, adds no clarity.

Back then, the other reference to this was pointed out by @malraux, which is still a valid link:

https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/activities/cub-scout-camping/

Now, that guidance DOES add clarity.  However, burying this significant restriction in only a few obscure locations is a poor practice.  Something like that ought to spelled out unequivocally in the G2SS.

3 minutes ago, MattR said:

In defense of @RichardB, there's a chart in the 2019 post that does clarify all of this, so don't shoot the messenger.

That said, we did ignore that rule because having webelos (aol now) join us for a campout with their parent was the best recruitment method we had. Going up for the day or just one night doesn't compare because the cub is not integrated as well. Other than sleeping we put him in a patrol. They loved it.

As others have said, what's that much different between one night and two?

 

And, he is not a "messenger." I believe this @RichardB is THE BSA Director Environmental Health and Safety,

and his LinkedIn profile describes his job as including, among other things, "Provides content and editorial leadership for Scouting Safely website and EHS Publications. Provides safety and health interpretations for standards, rules and policies and procedures. " (emphasis added)

If that is not his position, then I'll be happy to withdraw the arrow from the messenger's chest. 😛 

https://youtu.be/DgK25o__0Hw

Are you sure someone filed your registration with the council?

You can tell, if you have an account on my.scouting.org

The phone app for scoutbook has little functionality, IMO

Best to go to the website and use the online application.

Have you logged in there?

5 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

With our Troop fees figured in, it's $415 a year for our family.  Before trainings, MB fees, camp fees, all the stuff I buy for the Troops and don't ask for reimbursement.   And my wife's company matches charitable donations, so FOS got $500 from us this year.

Next year, have your wife's company make the donation to your CO.  Coordinate with your CO ahead of time to ask about this and ask for the funds to be passed on to the Troop.

This is perfectly fine, but your council will be livid.