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Posts posted by InquisitiveScouter

  1. 7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

    I'm saying people leave because they are burnt out.  A trigger is needed.  I doubt G2SS is the trigger.  It might receive a share of blame, but I doubt it's a trigger.

    Understood...and I wrestle with this daily.  My wife wishes I would just leave Scouting and start beekeeping and gardening...and start a cat rescue, too (she's a cat-lady‐in-the-making).  Things haven't gotten so bad that I'm ready to go so far as the cat rescue thing yet.  

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  2. 6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

    I don't buy it.  Scouter's regularily burn out and blame it on other things.  Their personal belief in scouting chains them to the program.  It's almost like they are waiting for a reason to step away.  The first time I saw it in scouting was when OA chapters merged.  Expert and extremely committed scouters couldn't be flexible to work together and each wanted to be the advisor.  So one walked.  ... Reality is the person was burnt out by a big commitment and just needed a trigger to leave.  I'm sure in many ways it was an absolutely relief and also a badge of victimhood to wear and a story to repeat.  

    Times change.  We can't expect the program and the rules from long ago.  ... G2SS is not perfect.  Many of the rules are hard to apply in nuanced sitautions.  BUT, the key is learning how to apply and asking for advice and guidance.  Also, providing feedback to get rules fixed.  

    My posts were based on two very specific comments.  #1  Infering we can play a G2SS game. Now, I'm a scouter.  Now, I'm not. Then a few hours later, I'm a scouter again.  #2  Similar, the comment that G2SS has rules that you don't really need to follow and that it's an ethical decision each scouter needs to make.  ... We should not teach those examples.


    OK, I unquit...see how easy that is?

    Merry Christmas!

    And WOW, way to kick them while they are down, brother...

    I regularly talk with Scouters who are carrying loads and loads of straw.  Often, since they have dedicated much of their lives to Scouting in one geographical area, they are attached to the local program in meaningful and sentimental ways.  And often, they have witnessed decades of poor decision making and mismanagement which has affected them on a personal level.  It's not like they are "waiting for a reason to step away."  It's just that, finally, one day, there is the straw that breaks the camel's back... But you intimate in your comment that this is all on them...that somehow they are not malleable enough.  No.

    To channel Jefferson, "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object (protecting BSA rather than Scouts) evinces a design to reduce them Scouters and the program under absolute Despotism Idiocy, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government Idiocy, and to provide new Guards for their future security Scouting.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Scouters Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain Boy Scouts of America is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States to protect the BSA instead of nurturing the Scouts under their wing."

    Yeah, I know, Jefferson is rolling in his grave this Christmas morning.🎅


    I have no problem with reaching the point where I am...that my membership in the BSA is under my terms, no longer theirs.  BSA has lost any place of authority, moral or otherwise, and I am under no obligation to listen or follow dictates that do not focus on safeguarding and teaching Scouts.

    When the ludicrous extension of YPT to non-Scouting venues was first inserted surreptitiously into the G2SS FAQ, I had discussions with my DE and SE, that this was foolishness, and simply an unenforceable move to CYA.  Further, I told them flat out, if this provision was ever written in, that I would not follow it simply on principle, and, if they wished, they could terminate my membership without remorse.  They both agreed.  That is where we are.

    This rule does nothing to protect young people.  Do you honestly think that anyone with designs to engage in sexual activity with a minor is going to obey YPT rules anyway?  This rule simply exists so that BSA can point to it in some way and say "See, we had a rule; They broke it, so we aren't liable."  I seriously doubt, as others do, that BSA bears any culpability in that situation.

    I do pick and choose, if you will, what rules I apply and the situations I apply them in.  I use my own judgement, trusting that it is superior to the clowns in Irving.  When a rule exists clearly to protect Scouts, I follow it.  When a rule clearly exists to protect BSA, I am selective.  It is not in my purview to protect the BSA.

    Now, I would never publicly announce such, nor put it in writing with my name attached, because, as my SE and I understand, it would tie his hands and he would be forced to evict me, and the Scouting program would lose a valuable member the team.  I also do not pontificate on these things with Scouts.  They are here to focus on other things.

    As @SiouxRanger so eloquently put it...

    11 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

    reality is complex and fuzzy..

    Want to protect kids from predators?  Teach them about predators and how to avoid and fight them.  Then, when we, collectively, deal with a predator, do it harshly.  

    I, for one, would advocate that child molestation should be a capital offense.  Swift and final punishment, and let the Good Lord impose His final justice. Matthew 18:6 is a good model.  "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."  Drive them out to the middle of the ocean, give them the stone necklace, and push them overboard...and broadcast it.  I see this as neither cruel nor unusual.  Remove the evil from among you.


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  3. 1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

    I've dealt with similar, but chosen to follow G2SS as best I can.  

    To be really, really honest ... and please forgive my response, but it is my view.   I absolutely cringe hearing that comment.  It is very dangerous and shows contempt for the Scout Law and contempt for the program that you've put your signature saying you will follow.  Even tongue in cheek, it is absolutely NOT something we should say or do.  It is absolutely a violation of G2SS.  It is a bad example to set for our youth.

    I am really sad to hear a scout leader saying those words.  

    You're right.  I quit.  Goodbye.

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  4. 2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

    over-reaching rules


    From G2SS:  "Parents and youth are strongly encouraged to use these safeguards outside the Scouting program. Registered leaders must follow these guidelines with all Scouting youth outside of Scouting activities."

    What I do outside of Scouting is none of BSA's business.  If my son wishes to have a friend over (with his parents' consent), and my wife is not at home for an hour or so because she is running to the grocery store, we'll be just fine, BSA, thanks... 

    And can you imagine this conversation?

    "Dad, is it OK if Jimmy comes over after school? We would like to work on our science project together, and then do some gaming."

    "Sure son, if his parents say it is OK.  Let me text his Dad real quick to verify...  OK, his Dad says he will pick him up after work.  Will Jimmy be staying for dinner?"

    "Nope, he is going out with his parents, and needs to be home by 6."

    "OK, fine.  I'll be here working in the yard.  Mom won't be home from work until about 5:30.  Wait...didn't Jimmy join Troop XXX last month?"

    "Yeah, why?"

    "Sorry, you'll have to cancel.  BSA says I cannot allow that, as we will not have two adults here."

    Actually, our humorous solution is that my son and I agree to quit BSA temporarily until the activity is done.  When we are done, we mentally reactivate our membership.  But, we are always Scouts.

    This is the kind of stuff from BSA that the average person just shakes their head at...and it kills confidence in the organization, and generates results like the OP.

    Oh, and where is the exception for family members?  We have a Scout who just turned 18.  He is a senior in High School.  His brother is a sophomore.  Are you telling me the older brother (now a registered ASM) cannot be at home with his younger brother after school while his parents are at work?  If you interpret the text according to the letter, the answer is, ridiculously, no.

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  5. 36 minutes ago, skeptic said:

    the total destruction of the largely great program. 

    I do wish I could get across to all...the loss of the BSA does not mean the loss of Scouting (the program).  Please separate the two "entities" in your thinking.

    Scouting was around before the BSA appeared, and we can continue it just fine if the BSA disappears.

    Is your loyalty to Scouting, the movement?  Or to BSA, the corporation?  (Or neither, or both 😜 ??)


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  6. 1 hour ago, MattR said:

    My guess is that they assume the parent is more reliable at keeping up the membership? I asked my son if he wanted any of the email I get for him and he said no. He's busy and I can't blame him.

    I think you may have missed the point...

    They already ask for the Scout's email in another section...

    In the section where they want to have info from you (Your Information), as the purchaser of a Gift Membership, it would only go through when entering the Scout parent's email instead of your email.

    And I go NO email confirmation of the purchase.

  7. On 12/13/2021 at 4:21 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

    Anyone having issues purchasing a new membership??


    Whoops!It appears important information is missing from your Eagle Scout profile.Please contact your Eagle Scout council updating the following information."
    All data is correct...and it does not tell me which data is triggering the error message....

    OK, so, this is new...I figured out that, if you are purchasing a Gift Membership for someone, you must put in the parent email address in on the section where is says "Your Information"  Never had to do that before.

  8. 21 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

    I don't believe it ever went away, it has just been changed over the years. For example: YOU NO LONGER CUT DOWN A TREE! Come on, Paul Bunyan and you don't cut down a tree? What sort of Paul Bunyan is that?

    It's lame, that's what it is...don't really know where that came from, but I have a good guess...

    My old PB card says, "Demonstrate how to fell a standing tree 4 inches or more at the butt..."  I recall an old OSHA regulation saying anything more than 6 inches required safety gear, but I cannot find this reference anywhere now.  Apparently OSHA applies to felling any standing tree now (https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/1998-03-04-0) (maybe ridiculous?)  And, you will be hard pressed to find any references in modern BSA literature to youth felling a tree (Fieldbook included), including G2SS policies.

    If you know of any current BSA tree felling guidance anywhere, please point it out to me...I'd love to read it.

  9. 4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    THANK YOU FOR POSTING THE NEWEST VERSION OF THAT BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and yes I am screaming in joy at ya :) )

    Last time I taught ITOLS, between my 1967 BSA Fieldbook and the 1950 or 60s version of the book you posted ( which was still THE book in use), these were the resources I used for wood tools.

    You are most welcome...it says it was updated October 2020.  I had not seen it until very recently...

  10. 36 minutes ago, MattR said:

    What's a prybar used for in the woods - assuming no nails are involved?

    Moving large logs into position for cutting, and for moving rocks when doing trail work.

    See requirement 7 in the Paul Bunyan...you would use this to meet the requirement to build the retaining wall or irrigation way.

    The long prybar (rock bar, crow bar, tamping bar, lots of other names and configurations...) could be used for both logs and rocks.  I also have, teach, and use a cant hook (would like to get a Peavy one day) for the logs, but you can't (pun intended) use it for rocks.


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  11. 26 minutes ago, MattR said:

    Good story. We had an awesome competition and everyone said speed and I said precision. So it was how many times can you split a log, and you had to use the smaller piece of any split for the next try. That was fun.

    Except for when, using an axe, they use a wrong stance and nearly hit their foot. That can prevent them from ever walking again.

    Table saws are a whole different class of how to hurt yourself. It's one reason why I prefer hand tools in my wood shop. While I have a table saw I would like to get good enough and have nice enough hand saws to replace it. Hand tools are slow but they're much more enjoyable. It's the difference between walking in the woods and driving at rush hour.

    Well worth the investment for your woods tools box.



  12. 8 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    A surgeon once re-attached two parts of my hand because I used a saw unsafely. 

    Because of that experience, not taking wood-shop class wasn’t an option for my sons. I was counting on the Oldscout448’s to teach my sons how to use shop power tools safely.

    I started my adult leaders wood-tools training class by explaining that the worst damaging flesh injuries in scouts came from saws. Not from not knives, not hatchets, and not the really scary axe. When a scout runs the teeth of a saw across his knuckles, it leaves a scar for life. You’re not only afraid of the wrong tools; your fear is dangerous because it makes you spend too little time teaching the proper safe use of all woods tools.

    Accidents will always happen, but they occur a lot less after proper training.




    After proper training, practice to proficiency (I don't see this a lot..."one and done" is a really bad idea here), group discipline to maintain the standards, and the behavioral example of adults and older Scouts in proper tool usage.

    One good practice is to have Scouts look at the pictures in the Scout Handbook and describe what the sawyer is wearing for safety (correct) and the pictured saw technique (which is iffy...hard to tell if the sawyer has the end off the ground or resting on the ground...will potentially bind the saw...page 382 of my early 13th edition)

    And there are so many "county options" out there it is pitiful...Totin Chip card carrying "requirements", cutting TC corners, insistence on ax yards on all camping trips, "blood circle" (a detestable term), "Thank You" requirements when not really needed, etc, etc

    And here's a sweet piece of cringy footage https://www.facebook.com/Rovering4Life/videos/569755051050258/ 

    And, as candidate for future Chief Scout of the USA, I'd lobby to put loppers in the woods tools section as the preferred tool for most firewood prep.



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  13. 16 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

    I have a friend who is also a life long scouter, and his other job is in construction.  He accidentally cut of part of his thumb with a circular saw.   Sooooooooooo..........somehow his guys got ahold of his toting (sp ck) chip..maybe his wife was involved....and cut out a jagged circle right in the middle of it😉

    Will that fit over the remainder of his thumb??


  14. 1 hour ago, qwazse said:

    What does it matter? The scout was fulfilling his PoR by delegating to the ASPL.

    I suppose the scouts could chose to recall the SPL and hold another election. And maybe if it were bad enough, if I were SM I’d suggest it to the PLC. If we officially suspended the scout, that would be another point.

    It sounds like the troop benefited from a competent ASPL, the ASPL learned something about how unreliable his buddy was, and gained some experience. We chalk that up to a win and move on.

    Asking a question is not reading anything into it.  If anything was read into the post, it was your supposing the job was delegated.  And, it does matter.  You and I generally see eye to eye on things, but we may diverge here...

    The requirement says, "...serve actively in your troop for xxx months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility..."

    Now, of course, the devil is in the details....what does "actively" mean??  That's a whole other discussion.  But, from OP, if a Scout vanishes like flatulence in a zephyr (paraphrasing), this is absolutely a situation that needs to be addressed.

    We had the same here on the PL level.  PL was elected, but never showed up.  As SM, I had a discussion with SPL about the vanished PL, and how he wanted to handle it.  Long story short, the SPL called him, set reasonable expectations the PL, which he then did not meet, and the SPL informed the acting Patrol Leader that his patrol could elect a new PL, if they wished.  They did this promptly.  I documented everything.

    The vanished PL needed the POR for Eagle Scout rank.  I declined to give him credit for time served based on his performance.  (His father agreed.)  The SPL asked him how he wished to serve the Troop to fulfill the requirement.  He asked for, and was given, another POR (unelected), a written set of expectations which he agreed to fulfill, and he fulfilled them.

    That was a win-win-win.  Everyone in the Troop (and parents) learned that this matters, and that was the key lesson of leadership...we held him accountable.

    P.S.  I did give credit to the APL for time served as PL (about two and a half months), because he stepped in and did the job.  He was subsequently elected, and, after a month and a half, he ranked up to Star (needed four months total)

  15. 9 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

    Should a CC who has a Scout in the Troop stay for meetings or drop and go?  I am unsure how much I should be around now.

    Stay!  But, you are there to observe the bigger picture...

    1.  Who is running the program?  Scouts or adults?  If Scouts, awesome!  If adults, then, on the side ask the SM corps what's the deal?  Find a way to help the SM corps put meeting program planning and execution into the hands of the Patrol Leaders Council.  At the BEST Scout meetings, the SM is the only adult who says anything, and that is for the SM's Minute at the very end.

    2.  Are the SM and ASM's keeping a "distant eye" on things, or do the inmates have free reign?  SM/ASM should only step in for matters of health and safety.  (For example, if the meeting is about setting up and lighting stoves, then an adult should watch fuel handling and check the connections prior to lighting.) We also ask SMs to assist when no one has the skill set needed for the program.

    3.  Are the Scouts having FUN!?  If they are not, you will lose them over time...  Remember: "A game with a purpose."  If they are not having fun, have a discussion with the SM, but not during that meeting  (maybe the next day?).  That isn't the place for that discussion. 

    4.  If your Troop does BORs during a meeting, you will certainly be needed for those. Consider having a BOR for a Scout who has not advanced in the past six months  (If the climate in your Troop is such that this would be viewed as a bad thing, then something is wrong!!  Figure it out and correct).  Ask the Scout what their goals are, and if the Scout wants to advance, then you should ask about that.  If they do not wish to advance, then ask only program-related questions:  "What patrol are you in?" "Who is your patrol leader?"  "Have you had any patrol meetings?  Tell me about that...?"  "What do you like about being in the Troop?"  "What don't you like about being in the Troop?"  "What was the last camping trip you went on?  Tell me about that...?" etc, etc, etc 

    5.  Recruit parents who are there a lot...they should be your committee members and the ASMs.  It is your job to recruit adults; it is not the SM's job!!!!  So, watch the current ASMs and ask yourself, "Who is the next SM?"  If there is no clear answer to that question, you have work to do.  Use your observations to develop a Succession Plan!!!  (OMG, wouldn't that be wonderful?)

    Again, YES, by all means, stay at the meetings!  Please!  I loved having a CC who would herd the parent-cats so I could focus on finding the order in the Scout-generated chaos 🤪

    Do you have, have you read, and do you follow your Troop Committee Guidebook?  Here's the 2011 version: http://commissioner-bsa.org/kit/Troop Committee Guidebook 34505.pdf  You have to pay for the new version (imagine that!)  Item number 647783, for only $6.99 https://www.scoutshop.org/troop-committee-guidebook-647783.html  No steak knives included...




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  16. 6 hours ago, elitts said:

    When my son was 15 he ran for SPL and got beat, and then became ASPL for one of the resume builders; who of course vanished like a fart in the wind about 2 months into his term.  So my son ended up acting as SPL for 3 or 4 camp-outs.  The second campout he did that on ended up being one where he was the only kid over 14, along with two 13 year old "my parents don't medicate us on the weekends" ADHD pains in the rear and then seventeen 10,11 & 12 year olds in four patrols.  By Saturday night he was just about in tears when he came up to me off in the dark at about 9pm to let me know that "Being SPL on camp-outs just totally sucks!  Nobody does what they are supposed to do, the ADHDers wander off the second there's a pause in whatever they are supposed to be doing and the new kids are such idiots they didn't even know how to boil water." (They were trying to boil water for hot cocoa in a 12" frying pan with no lid because the kid doing it "Couldn't find anything else to use".  I assume because the frying pan was at the top of the cook-box and blocking the view of the complete pot & pan set resting underneath and moving one thing while looking for a second thing still doesn't occur to 11 year olds.)

    I was honestly surprised he still wanted to be SPL after that, but 10 hours of sleep seemed to put him right.

    Please tell me the resume builder did not get credit for a term as SPL??

  17. Anyone having issues purchasing a new membership??


    Whoops!It appears important information is missing from your Eagle Scout profile.Please contact your Eagle Scout council updating the following information."
    All data is correct...and it does not tell me which data is triggering the error message....
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