InquisitiveScouter

2 minutes ago, Better4itall said:

Ummm - really low country. Like 35 feet above sea level. Some good advice, but don't let it deter you, sounds like a great trek. Good hydration and conditioning training before you leave are the best preparations. Treat it like you would a Philmont trek - it looks comparable. I'd leave the O2 and Gamow bag at home, but get ahold of the local SAR team, and definitely stair-step your way up over a couple of days.

LOL, yeah, the last two points were being facetious... note the "overkill" and "LOL, if only  " remarks...

Swimming is much easier.

Cycling next.

Hiking is awesome, but many balk at the 20-miler.  You do have to work up to it, or face some noticeable pain 😛

On 2/10/2022 at 3:08 PM, tnmule20 said:

Has anyone ever done the hike from Elk Park flag stop on the Durango and Silverton RR to the Needleton flag stop?

Here is a link.  https://www.alltrails.com/explore/trail/us/colorado/elk-park-to-needleton?mobileMap=false

36 mile point to point.

I know it is beautiful because I have ridden the train a few times.  I think the Scouts would get a kick out of riding the train to the drop off, doing the hike, and then meeting the train to take you back. 

We are low landers and I'm always afraid of altitude sickness.

So, for this, I'd note a few things...

1.  When you say "low landers", what do you mean?  What is the average altitude above sea level where you live?  This will matter...

2.  Acute Mountain Sickness (AMS) really becomes a factor above around 8000 feet.  The best treatment is to go down in altitude.  Much of the route you have there is above 8000', with no easy way to get down to lower altitudes, should the need arise.  Plan accordingly.

3.  Here's some light reading  ... https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/page/travel-to-high-altitudes#

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3678789/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430716/

https://www.uptodate.com/contents/high-altitude-illness-including-mountain-sickness-beyond-the-basics#

4.  Plan your overnight locations at the lowest altitudes you can reasonably reach.

5.  One of the absolute best predictors of AMS is if you have experienced it before!!  So, plan two weekend trips where you go to high altitudes for a night.  Anyone gets severe symptoms, you may not want to take them on the long trek.

6.  If you are really low landers (live below 5000'), camp a few nights at 5000, then camp at the Every Train Stop on first night (if possible)... I think that's around 8900 feet.  This will help you identify potential problems early.  

7.  Bring ibuprofen!! Pre-load with it!! https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2012/03/ibuprofen-decreases-likelihood-of-altitude-sickness-researchers-find.html

8.  Find out who is responsible for search and rescue operations there.  Call them.  Ask about their capabilities to come and get someone.  Do they have a chopper?  Have they had to bring anyone out of there before?  What communications capabilities do they recommend you bring??  etc, etc, etc.  You will learn a lot in a 20 minute conversation with them 😜 

Looks like an awesome trip!! May I come with you??

And, for the complete overkill...

9.  If you are really worried about AMS, get Emergency Oxygen Administration training; purchase and bring a lightweight O2 canister.  It will buy you a little time to figure out what you are going to do to get someone down.

10.  If money, time, training, and your weight load are no factor,  bring a Gamow bag  LOL, if only

https://www.chinookmed.com/06001/gamow-bag-hyperbaric-chamber-civilian-model.html#!details

Because a tent is a huge expense, I recommend you think down the road a bit.

What do you intend to use the tent for 5-7 years from now?  If you think you will still me doing a lot of car camping, then the Basecamp might be good.

If you think you'll want to be more mobile (backpacking, etc.), you may want to opt for two lightweight tents.  Basecamp4 is 7.65 kg!!  (BTW, Basecamp4 is not 50% off... only 20% with your member discount... at least that is what I am seeing... so $359.20 without tax.)(but you get a dividend of about $45, )

Is your Scout the type that could sleep in a tent by themselves with no problems?  If yes, consider two of the REI Co-op Half Dome SL 2+ Tent with Footprint

These are 50% off!  (but no dividend??)

$328.98 for two of them without tax! So, fina cost will be about the same.  2.14kg each

https://www.rei.com/product/185632/rei-co-op-half-dome-sl-2-tent-with-footprint?sku=185632001

Get the green ones to be less obtrusive in the woods.

Then, your Scout could actually have another Cub sleep in the tent with them.  That'd be super-cool for them, and they won't get your gear dirty!!

Vestibules are minimal, so good for boots and a couple of items, but there is plenty of room inside for 1 + gear.

options, options, options

P.S.  The basecamp has no footprint.  the half-domes come with a footprint.

I do not recommend big cabin tents, for the reasons you see above...

We still have one we bought in the basement.  Used it about 5 or 6 times...

Our family preferred using our backpacking-type tents more.  We set up two, and often put Mom with the girls and Dad with the boys.  Even then, it wound up being as @Eagle94-A1 pointed out... I set up the tents while Mom corralled the young ones.  You do not spend a lot of time in the tent for any activities other than changing clothes (where people want some privacy) and sleeping.  The kids want to be outside playing anyway (even in the rain 😜 ).

How many people are you looking to put in tents??

Welcome @Jadalexm!

7 hours ago, Jadalexm said:

The biggest challenge has been trying to figure out how to teach what I know in a way that children can absorb.

You were a Scout from Tiger to Eagle. So, that's about what, a 12-year time span?  And I know you have learned a lot more since then...

But just looking at your Scouting years, ask yourself the question... "How long does it take to get 12 years worth of knowledge?"  Well, it takes about 12 years 😜

Be patient with yourself, as well as your Scouts!  You are going to have some meetings and activities where you will feel like you did not accomplish a great deal (if anything.)  That's OK.

One thing I found very helpful is to read a little about the psychology of the year groups you are dealing with, and find some articles on how that year group learns, interacts with others, and how they view themselves.

Here's an example: https://www.verywellfamily.com/9-year-old-developmental-milestones-620731

Particularly, in that article, see the section "How to Help Your 9-Year-Old Learn and Grow"

"Help your 9-year-old thrive by encouraging developmentally appropriate routines and activities. "Make sure your child spends at least an hour a day engaged in physical activities," says Dr. Poinsett."

I daresay (especially in this day and age) that most Bears are NOT getting an hour a day of physical activities.  So , when you get them, they are indeed restless and need to "get some wiggles" out.  Use that.  Playing a game of tag is learning! 

If you have space outside at your meeting place, get some traffic cones for a "driving course" an have them all bring their bicycles (and helmets) for a little rodeo. 

Take a walk to identify animals or plants. 

Play "Skin the Snake" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-yTC8kAr2U&ab_channel=MPHSASB

Play Leap Frog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj0JBiknaPg&ab_channel=Howcast

Etc etc etc.

I recommend you not focus too much on the Advancement portions of the program.  Sure, work in one or two things per meeting, but focus more on having fun while learning.

Yours in Scouting

9 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I don't understand why the pros can't seem recognize the immeasurable goodwill embodied in the faithful volunteers and figure out how to capitalize on it.

But that goodwill is frittered away, time and again.

It may be that many volunteers have lost their confidence in the professional administration of the program and now will not trust a new administration.  The shadow is LONG.

I know many volunteers that won't contribute a penny, but donate tons of time.  I think largely on the sentiment of,  "The council can't afford to pay me to do this work, so I'll donate my time and that will be my contribution."

Because the money kept coming in... so the volunteers were expendable.

But they are slowly killing the goose that lays the golden egg, and they cannot see it.

7 minutes ago, qwazse said:

It’s the youth who know what each of them as done who will feel the emotional damage if they think either a) one of their peers took a shortcut because the SM was permissive or b) one of their peers was blocked for a technicality because the SM was restrictive.

Youth who know you respect their opinion will be youth who talk to you on weightier topics.

During my SM conferences, I ask each Scout, "Other than you 😛 , who is the best Scout in this Troop, and why?"  And then I challenge them to emulate the successful behavior they see in others.  I also ask them, with a promise of anonymity, "Which Scout challenges you the most, in either a positive or negative way?"  In about 75%(?) of answers that they bring up a negative example.  Usually some bullying or poor behavior that goes on when adults aren't watching.  I take notes and I observe more closely to address the behavior.  Often, Scouts talk about how someone goes to merit badge colleges or summer camp and gets "free merit badges", where they do no work, but get the badge, or has their parents sign up as MBC's and gets them that way. (Our newest Eagle Scout candidate has completed four Eagle-required merit badges that way, and the Scouts often point to this as a negative.  I agree that it is bad optics, but ethical behavior starts in the home, and if his parents aren't modeling it, then we will have much less positive impact in the unit.)

Scouts talk, and they have their own "pecking order" when it comes to evaluating who is a good Scout and who isn't.  We try to monitor this peer-perception system, and interject truth when needed, because, like most organizations, there is gossip and misinformation everywhere.  

16 minutes ago, qwazse said:

NO PLAQUES, PLEASE!!!

I said certificates... and NO PLAQUES, agreed!

shoulda said gift certificates or gift cards

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

I’ve learned that every set of adults is different. When you have a contentious or unmotivated lot, it can be a hard slog. When everyone leans in a little, great things can happen … especially when the scouts start imitating those adults!

I’m not beneath bribing adults who might lean in with chocolates or flowers. They are so precious.

Or knots, or certificates, or the Troop paying for their Scouting classes or outings!!!

35 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I have used that term myself lately, for both "Hollywood Indian" ceremonies and  Scout uniformed ceremonies.

But maybe I am spoiled. My lodge growing up had a relationship with the local nation, and had members on our LEC. One of the guys I worked with and did ceremonies with had an uncle on the tribal council. We worked with them to improve our regalia and make it more authentic.

Lately it seems as if folks could care less about truly mastering ceremonies. We practiced and memorized ceremonies back in the day. We worked on both chapter and personal regalia. sadly I have seen ceremonies thrown together with folks who have never rehearsed together before the event. I have seen folks read from scripts at podiums. I have seen Ordeal ceremonies where only 2 people read the script. And I have seen adults ad lib a Call Out not even in uniform.

Really sad thing is that the chapter heavily invested in researching authentic regalia and  spent money to by supplies needed to make the authentic regalia. But 10+ years after purchase, the itemsare still in sealed bags waiting to be made.

Again, Native American Heritage Preservation is not in our mission set... and never was.

Another "cringy" is watching drumming, singing, and dancing... especially when there is no meaning attached,  Then it becomes blind mimicry, and pretty bad at that.

11 hours ago, cmd said:

I think another fun orienteering-based activity would be to take a hike and do a scavenger hunt along the way for features that would be listed on a map: old stone wall, streambed, large rootstock, lone tree, reentrant, etc.  If you can get a trail map, even if it isn't a topo one, they could draw in the symbols that correspond to those features.  Or even without a map, just have some large copies of the symbols and when they find something that is represented in the list show you the symbol.

make and print your own basic topo maps at caltopo.com

28 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

AES,  I experienced this while I was in Sweden as well, and looked (admiringly) at it as a deep connection to familial, community, and cultural roots.  You have expressed well exactly what the issue is here... people who have no connection with something deeply meaningful (to those with a connection to the culture) are making attempts (often poor) to copy (with sometimes embarrassing results) for no reason other than some fictional ceremonial purposes.

Thank you for putting a "Scandanavian" slant on the context of this discussion.  It is helpful to shed light on the issue.

(Min fafar var Svensk.)

 

P.S.  Approaching Midsommar 1987, I had the distinct pleasure of helping to construct the midsommarstång!! I went into the forest to help gather flowers and birch branches for the pole!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9bJpgyf1X4&ab_channel=GraceonTour

The Swedish Scouts taught me the song,  "Lasse går i ringen", and on Midsommar, we tried to break the record for dancing!!  (Apparently, there was such a thing.) The sun set around 10 PM (IIRC), but I only made it till about 3:30 AM before I gave out 😛  Sunrise was about 4:00 AM!!!

A new world of history, culture, food, and language opened to me by the International Camp Staff program of the BSA!! (Now cancelled... https://www.scouting.org/international/international-adventure/cancellation-of-the-international-camp-staff-program/) 

And a re-connection to some of my family roots!

BTW, the dress and embroidery were gorgeous!!

https://ritualtrip.com/midsummer/what-sweden

Thanks for the trip down memory lane 😜 

1 minute ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I'm not that familiar with rules for regalia, so I have what may be a basic question: are there rules (formal or informal) around needing to have a family connection to the place/people the regalia is for?

I ask because it reminds me a bit of how folk dress works in the Nordic countries. Each locale has its own and wearing it is a statement of being from the place the folk dress is from. They may not be commercially down, they must be hand-sown and ideally inherited. If you roll up to a Midsummer celebration in a folk dress for a place you have no connection to, you're going to be seen as a liar. It's just not done.

Last Midsummer, we went for a very traditional celebration in the area of Sweden that my family is from. It's pretty culturally conservative, to the point where one particular valley was still writing with runes in the 1800s. Since I have my grandmother's folk dress from the town we're from, I had a number of people in the local folk dress come and ask where it's from. Make no mistake, this was a "are you one of us" question, because it's from the same region as opposed to all the city slicker tourists coming there just for Midsummer. (I did not mention that we flew in from abroad!) Had I said "I bought this on the Internet because I thought it looked cool", that would have been highly frowned upon. 

They way you make a high-quality folk dress takes a lot of passed-down knowledge... In my grandmother's case, a lot of sewing, embroidery, and weaving classes. Can't imagine it's easy to make regalia either. That's what makes me wonder how you get high-quality regalia without a living connection to the tradition they come from.

AES,  I experienced this while I was in Sweden as well, and looked (admiringly) at it as a deep connection to familial, community, and cultural roots.  You have expressed well exactly what the issue is here... people who have no connection with something deeply meaningful (to those with a connection to the culture) are making attempts (often poor) to copy (with sometimes embarrassing results) for no reason other than some fictional ceremonial purposes.

Thank you for putting a "Scandanavian" slant on the context of this discussion.  It is helpful to shed light on the issue.

(Min fafar var Svensk.)

8 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Cherokee	729,533
Navajo	298,197
Latin American Indian	180,940
Choctaw	158,774
Sioux	153,360
Chippewa	149,669
Apache	96,833
Blackfeet	85,750
Iroquois	80,822
Pueblo	74,085

Got it, but you missed the point 😜

18 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Personally, I think we should go to leaders of the largest nations in the USA and ask them what we should consider doing.  I could see changing Indian Lore to be more about current native Americans.   Perhaps sharing use of camps for Pow wows.  Service projects in reservations.  etc.  Perhaps that could lead to NAs leaders also talking/teaching their history and other partnerships.

I would hate to see a complete break, but I do agree change is needed.

574 recognized tribes in US.  What about native Hawaiians??

https://www.usa.gov/tribes

What qualifies as a "largest nation"??

13 minutes ago, malraux said:

I personally am ok with either path, even if I preference for one of them. A lot of the current approaches seems to very ad hoc instead of routinized. That might work for past times, but now one council or lodge being inappropriate can show up on YouTube and give the whole organization a black eye (micosay looking at you)

Neither the BSA nor the OA has a purpose or mission as a Native American Heritage Society.

I love what the OA is at heart, and it has nothing to do with any real Native American lore.

I say ditch it, and walk away.

Structure it around the colonial period and a call to service for freedom.  I can think my way through that set up easily.

11 minutes ago, RainShine said:

Yeah I was expecting Scoutbook and SignUp Genius, and Ive learned some troops use CheddarUp. One Scoutmaster I spoke with locally is enthused about troopwebhost for all this.

InquisitiveScouter, you guys are light years ahead of us. If I quit my job and started now, how long would it take to set all that up?

It took me about 2 years to change the culture of the Troop.  And I am retired and spend most of my time working at the unit level.  It's been running OK for about 4 years after that, but it is still on shaky ground because people are lazy and apathetic... adult volunteers, Scouts, and parents.

I give it about eight months after I depart to fail... unless a like-minded dedicated Scouter comes along to shepherd the process and hold feet to the fire.

However, most of the principles in all this--- PLC and Patrol Method--- is the heart of Scouting, and in ALL the literature you read.  You do not actually find many units who use the Patrol Method well.

Best wishes!

In our lexicon, the terms "morals" and "ethics" ought to be decoupled.

Without a concept of god, there is no basis for morals. 

https://theconversation.com/morality-requires-a-god-whether-youre-religious-or-not-42411

There is only ethics, and ethics change according to the consensus of people...

The new Scout Oath:

I promise do my best to follow my conscience and do my duty to my family, community, country, world, and universe, and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and ethically straight.

The new twelfth point of the Scout Law is "Ethical"

New Mission of BSA:

"The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law."

There, BSA... fixed that for you.

"As for my family and me, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

5 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

If that is what you believe, then you are perfectly fine to believe that. You may well believe there is an actual answer in there, but others may not. You may well have convincement in that, others very well may have an entirely different point. The problem is - where is the ironclad proof that one view is right and the other wrong? The question for me is not should we allow or not allow atheists/agnostics, it is why do we need to even have it part of Scouting, especially when Scouting takes every possible step to avoid trying to "take a side" in this element? The BSA clearly doesn't believe that a side must be declared, considering that they have allowed Buddhists to be members for over a hundred years, have no issue with Hindus being members, or even wiccans. I know three individuals who earned Eagle as a youth that are atheists or agnostic today. Leave the twelfth point of the Scout Law, but if we aren't declaring an "arrival point" or consensus on what that spiritual point is that must be reached by age 18, then we need not make any declaration on it other than accepting that we are all trying to understand our purpose and it very well may be a true lifetime journey for us to have an understanding of what it is we believe.          

This is the route that Trail Life USA took.  Scouts there can be of any/no faith.  Adult leaders must be Christian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_Life_USA

No survey here, and I routinely get them...

We use Scoutbook.

The PLC decides our trips and events during the Annual Planning Conference.  (We have two APC's per year, so we always have a minimum of six months of activities on the books...)  An adult helps the Troop Webmaster and Troop Scribe enter the events in Scoutbook (due to Scoutbook edit permissions.)

For "regular" events, our planning horizon is 90 days.  Prior to the 90-day clock starting, the PLC has to designate a Youth Planner for the event.  The Committee tags an Adult Planner.  The Youth and Adult Planner use this checklist (a bit outdated, but still useful...) to plan for the event.  All details go into Scoutbook, and an appropriate RSVP date is set and entered into Scoutbook (I wish there was a feature for this.)  At the suspense date, the RSVPs are closed, and the trip is set. At that point, Scouts and families are financially obligated if tickets/groceries/etc are purchased on their Scout's behalf.  Changes are on a case-by-case basis after RSVPs close.  

There is a full PLC each month, usually the meeting night following a camping trip.  (No regular meeting then.)  At that PLC, they review the trip planning for the next three outings (90-days out, 60 days out, and next outing)  They plan activities, schedules, etc.  No, they are not good at it, but remember who we are dealing with 😜 

The meeting before the trip, all menus must be approved by the ASM assign to that patrol.

Planning and prep for gear and meals is done by patrol.  We set an overall budget (usually about $20 per person for food for the weekend) and the patrols pick their shopper.  Sometimes, patrols will combine if there are only one or two from a patrol going.  If the shopper exceeds the budget, their family eats the overage. 

The patrol shoppers buy and submit a receipt after the trip.  We ask parents who take them shopping to cover the cost until reimbursement.

All accounting is done via Google Drive shared spreadsheet after the trip, with the Adult Planner, Youth Planner, Troop Treasurer reconciling costs.  Once reconciled, charges and credits are issued in Scoutbook.  We haven't reached nirvana on this, but we are close.

Rather than paying outright for every trip, some parents deposit money into the Troop account, which is tracked in Scoutbook and debited/credited accordingly.  Some parents wait and float a debt... At $200 debt (for past events), your Scout is no longer allowed to participate until you clear the debt. 

We have had a few people skip out on the Troop, to to tune of about $30 to $50 on average.  This happens about once every other year.  Most of the time, we eat that cost, or count it as the cost of having that family exit the Troop, if you know what I mean.  (Happy to elaborate, if needed.)

This way, we almost never have to have small sums of money change hands.

As it turns out, each Scout in a patrol does the shopping about once every six months.  The amount credited to their account for the groceries covers their participation for the next six months...

Parents can view all credit/debits/balances directly in Scoutbook.  It is a wonderful tool. 

All these policies/procedures are in our Troop Handbook.

Hope this helps...

outing_planner_checklist_from_troop_leader_guidebook_volume_1_bsa_publication_512-150_2015_printing.pdf

1 hour ago, EaglePanther said:

Of course my favorite aspect of  this is the title of the executive who sent out a survey surrounding  Scout usage of and respect for Native American culture - Chief Scout Executive

LOL, "Chief" is an English word.  And there are/were tribal chiefs (chieftains) around the world in multiple countries/lands throughout history.  It is not "appropriation" to use that word.

The etymology is French...

13 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Are you saying that the BSA and most members thereof see themselves as their own, separate scouting-like movement that shouldn't align with any other scouting-like organization?

Yes, I think that is an accurate assessment

2 minutes ago, RichardB said:

@InquisitiveScouter 

I'd suggest to your list that CPR is a skill every youth you supervise should know, practice and understand not to stop until professional help arrived.   In my tenure as a Scoutmaster, professional trainers were brought in for the youth in my unit and they did well in first aid events at camporees.  

 

Agreed!

I met you at Philmont some years ago when I was there at PTC getting WFA Instructor certified.  (I'm sure you thousands of people 😜 )  I have about 50% of our unit currently certified in CPR/AED, and work to get/offer training to folks in our council.  Have trained over 200+.  Now, getting folks to dedicate time and effort to do First Aid or Wilderness First Aid training is a challenge.

I've been pushing for an AED purchase for our Troop trailer, but that's a high-dollar pilferable item, so we have not gotten consensus/committee approval to purchase yet.  (About 60-70% of our camping is car-camping.)  It's always tabled for further discussion.

Thanks for the input...